Term 1 ~ Judiciary : Interpereting the Great Experiment!

ravensfire · Mar 7, 2005

DaveShack said:
We will need a clarification. The CJ opinion does not mention mid-term appointment, while the PD one does. I maintain that this cannot be considered a mid-term appointment because the office has not yet been validly filled.

Oh, and gotta go make a thread for amending that mid-term appointment thing. Don't know where that came from, it wasn't on the crib notes...

Err, actually the CJ does mention the mid-term, the PD did not, at first.

This will also be considered a mid term appointment, thus donsig must be approved by the majority of the consuls as in this article:

DaveShack, given that it's now the 7th of the month, at some point even the initial appointment needs to be considered mid-term. This is also a rather unique set of circumstances.

To think a simple PM, or posted request could have handled this ....

-- Ravensfire

Black_Hole · Mar 7, 2005

Provolution: Your second JR is now irrelevant, please reword without the names of citizens. Something like: "Are deputies required to post every three days?"

Thank-You!
Office of the Chief Justice

blackheart · Mar 7, 2005

ravensfire said:
To think a simple PM, or posted request could have handled this ....

Politicians and beauracrats and witch hunts, unfortunately, don't like simplicity.

ravensfire · Mar 7, 2005

Black_Hole said:
Provolution: Your second JR is now irrelevant, please reword without the names of citizens. Something like: "Are deputies required to post every three days?"

Thank-You!
Office of the Chief Justice

Actually, Black_Hole, take a close look at the law in question. In particular, note the word "may".

Something to consider ...

-- Ravensfire

Black_Hole · Mar 7, 2005

ravensfire said:
Actually, Black_Hole, take a close look at the law in question. In particular, note the word "may".

Something to consider ...

-- Ravensfire

Actually after the current events, I can see why the writer of that put that in there. They hoped the Judiciary would be able to accept some circumstances. Good Catch!

eyrei · Mar 7, 2005

It is always disappointing to see the judiciary thread quickly become the longest in the demogame forums. I can't believe you are expending so much energy on such a small thing. Try to have fun people...

mhcarver · Mar 7, 2005

I would like to request another Judicial review over the appointment of the Vice President. The constitution states

Code:

2.  Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may 
                take over the President's tasks when the President is 
                absent. If the President should be removed from office 
                for any reason the Vice President will then take the 
                position of President and appoint a Vice President. 
                The Vice President must be approved by a majority of 
                the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

it also states

Code:

4.  The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant
                office. If a deputy exists for that office, the 
                President must appoint that citizen. This appointment 
                may be challenged by any [B]citizen by that citizen 
                posting a confirmation poll within 24 hours of the 
                appointment.   [/B]

My question is
1. What is the definition of "mid term"? this could mean several things such as an initial appointment being rejected, the position becoming vacant by resignation or absence or the appointment being made after the 15th or 16th of the month
2. If the Vice President is confirmed by the consuls is he/she still subject to a confirmation poll by a citizen? if so must that citizen wait until before or after the consuls have voted?
3. are Citizens appointed to positions such as deputy or Vice president immediately after elections subject to confirmation polls?

Nobody · Mar 7, 2005

*wades though all the bickerning people, past provolution shaking some poor legal aid yelling "But he was registered, damn it!" and the armys of lawyers fighting over which wich means witch".........

I might of come at a bad time, but well now that we finally have a constitution, i wanted to as you judges to explain something i have been wondering since election time....

Judicial Review Number 3

Who has the power to post instructions the Console for external policy or the Director of Commerce? I mean who actually decides when to sign a peace treaty, Trade embargo or any other agreement? And if both post instuctions who's take presidence?

heres the law:

Article D. 4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning
of policy regarding other nations. This includes
military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term
trading goals.

and

Article E. 2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Manages budget. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from leaders regarding the use of gold. Also decides on espionage
missions.

I seems to me that Director of Commerce decides the actual running but then what powers does the Console of External policy have?
Is it that the Directer has the power of the former Foriegn Affairs minister and the Console has none. Becuase in the term 1 election the moderator said the Console of External Policy ".... is a merger of Military and Foreign Affairs."

Judicial Review Number 4

who has the power to issue instructions for troop movement?

Is it the Console of External Policy or the Commander of the Armed Forces.

heres the laws

Article D. 4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning
of policy regarding other nations. This includes
military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term
trading goals.

and

Article E. 1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

Thanks judges.

blackheart · Mar 7, 2005

eyrei said:
It is always disappointing to see the judiciary thread quickly become the longest in the demogame forums. I can't believe you are expending so much energy on such a small thing. Try to have fun people...

Unfortunately we can't with all the flak that can be easily solved by a gentle friendly reminder.

Black_Hole · Mar 7, 2005

I find that mhcarver's JR has merit.

However nobody, your 2 JRs are easily defined by the law, no interperation is needed.
Thus I rule they have no merit(however, the other 2 justices may overrule this if they wish)
For the first one:
The consuls are long term, they do not post the instructions to do specific tasks, this is also pretty blunt in a few different places in the constitution

For the second one:

Article E. 1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

That pretty bluntly says the Commander of Armed forces micromanages unit movements.

Office of the Chief Justice

Ashburnham · Mar 7, 2005

Relevant Articles

Constitution Article A.

Code:

All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen 
Registry are citizens of our country. Citizens have the 
right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right 
to free speech, the right to a fair and speedy trial, the
right to representation, the right to name units (within
the naming convention), the right to request an 
investigation into possible violations of law and the 
right to vote.

CoL 4.a

Code:

 a. For all positions with deputies, the leader may appoint the
citizen of their choice as their deputy.

Looking at these articles, we can clearly see that Donsig is not a citizen, becuase he never posted in the Citizen Registry. Thus, he is ineligible for any deputy positions (which the Vice Presidency is).

I concur with the ruling of my fellow Justices.

Provolution · Mar 7, 2005

Finale

I am most happy with the Judicial Review of the cases, and very happy that our respected and talented colleague Donsig emerged in time to sign up as Citizen 95 in the registry and to become appointed yet again as Vice President after a weeks absence without notification. I also do expect an improvement of the presented articles, and not further personal criticism of the intent of the amendments but to sustain the Citizen Registry Institute above personal favors. I have seen a tendency to be rigid to some people and flexible to some people, but want this to be equal.

I will personally see to that the Constitution and Lower Laws have a minimum of contradictory points and black holes that can be misinterpreted, abused, circumvented and applied to give preferential treatment. My mission as a citizen is to see that dispensation claims and exceptions to the rule of law, overseeing of polling standards and other areas are subjected to equal treatment. I will post statistics and evaluations on how legalities are handled and if the laws and applications of laws are dealt with based on objective criteria.

Bill_in_PDX · Mar 7, 2005

I don't think using a perceived minor flaw in the law to try to drive through sweeping changes via a JR is kosher.

I would recommend that Provolution propose and campaign for his proposals.

Provolution · Mar 7, 2005

Bill_in_PDX said:
I don't think using a perceived minor flaw in the law to try to drive through sweeping changes via a JR is kosher.

I would recommend that Provolution propose and campaign for his proposals.

Kosher? That does not apply for me, I am an omnivore that devours anything covered by the applicable and enforced laws in the country I visit as long as the food is healthy. But you are right Bill, I did indeed campaign and propose some proposals, where people should post more.

However, the JR had merit, and we have more than minor flaws in the law.

ravensfire · Mar 7, 2005

Provo - hope and pray that should you ever make a mistake and violate any of the laws that the citizens here have more respect and courtesy that you do, and allow you to correct the problem without resorting to the Judiciary.

Maybe you didn't get the point many people were making, but there aren't too many people pleased with how you handled this. There is a difference between whether you can do something, and if you should.

This will be my last post on this matter. You've managed to hit quite a few of my buttons on this one, Provo. You have a blind fascination with the ruleset, and managed to ignore the people in the game.

Respect is earned, not given.

-- Ravensfire

eyrei · Mar 7, 2005

Moderator Action: Let's end this here please. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Ashburnham · Mar 8, 2005

Ravensfire mentioned that he was waiting for the CJ to put down his ruling on JR#1 before putting down his own. This struck me as a good idea, as well as an appropriate tip of the hat to our head Judge. I've decided to adopt this position, so in the future we can allow the Chief Justice his due.

MOTH · Mar 8, 2005

Request for a Judicial Review:
Articles cited:
L. Commission of any game action by any person other than the Designated Player while carrying out their duties that is not instantly reversible without reloading the save is strictly forbidden.

Question: Can any citizen use the SpaceShip Screen (F10) to determine what other Civilizations we are competing with?

This does not seem to be a game action at all and not therefor reversible or not. As such I would expect that this info should be allowed.

Note that this info is also available in CivAssist and in the CrpSuite of software.

Also, the DG5 constitution had an article stating that anything not specifically excluded was the right of all citizens.

Black_Hole · Mar 8, 2005

*sigh* I was really hoping we could cut down on the simple JRs...
Pressing any F key is not a game action, nor is it irreversible. Common sense can tell you alot when reading. Please submit JRs for things that are hard to understand, not something that could be figured out by reading the constitution.

I find Moth's JR to have no merit, again if the other 2 justices wish to overule me go ahead.

Office of the Chief Justice

Strider · Mar 8, 2005

I submit this to the Judiciary for review, this is amending the election cycle:

X. Elections
1. Nominations and Debate
Nominations will be created by the Election Office 8 days prior to the end of the month. Citizens may nominate themself or another citizen in this thread. Citizens may also post pre-nominations in the Election Office thread if they will not be present during the nomination period. This nomination thread should contain a description of the office. A nomination is not considered Accepted until the candidate makes an explicit post. All self-nominations are considered Accepted unless otherwise stated. All debates will take place within the nomination thread, and will continue through the end of the election cycle. Any citizen may post questions for the candidates to answer. Candidates may answer or not answer as they wish. A nomination is not considered Accepted until the candidate makes an explicit post. All self-nominations are considered Accepted unless otherwise stated.

2. Election Polls
Election polls will be created by the Election Office 4 days before the end of the month. These polls will contain the names of all Accepted candidates for the office, a description of the office, a link to the nomination thread, be set to run for 3 days and be marked private. Should a citizen Accept multiple nominations, and does not explicitly clarify which office they wish to run for, the Election Office will use the first office they Accepted. The citizen with the most votes at the close of the poll is the winner of the election. Should two or more candidates tie at the end of the election poll with the same number of votes, a runoff election of two days duration will be conducted with the tied candidates only. This process shall continue until one candidate receives the most votes.

3. General
The Election Cycle will run from the first nomination thread is opened until the last runoff poll closes. All threads and polls should be posted at before 00:00 GMT on the correct day.

Term 1 ~ Judiciary : Interpereting the Great Experiment!

Member of the Opposition

Deity

unenlightened

Member of the Opposition

Deity

Deity

Newspaper Mogul

Gangster

unenlightened

Deity

King

Sage of Quatronia

Grumpy Submariner

Sage of Quatronia

Member of the Opposition

Deity

King

Emperor

Deity

In Retrospect

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