Missing Civilizations

Tunch Khan said:

Leader : Hannibal, Dido

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Do we even know for a fact that Dido was a real person? Since the Romans only have Caesar, I don't think two Carthaginians are a priority.

I'm at a disadvantage in giving good suggestions, since I don't own the game, so I'm not sure about leader traits.

Hannibal strikes me as an agressive person. I personally think Caesar was organized, industrious, and other things, but he doesn't get any of them, which makes me wonder what Hannibal would get. I'd probably say Agressive and Organized. The Carthaginians are financial, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to Hannibal.

Capital : Carthage

Flag : Palm tree on burgundy

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I personally like Rome Total War's symbol a lot (the crescent moon facing upwards with a circle below it). It could be too arabic, though.

I've never seen this palm tree thing before, but I don't know if my idea is any better or worse.

Starting Techs :

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Still at a disadvantage with my knowledge. Maybe Fishing and the Wheel

Great Scientists :

Great Merchants :

Great Prophets :

Great Artists :

Great Engineers :

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I'd have to think about these.

Unique Unit : War Elephant

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I'd disagree here. Carthage's use of War Elephants have been vastly overrated in my opinion. I still think Numidian Horsemen are the best idea (and I've thought it since PTW). Not sure how to differentiate it from the Keshik, but it would probably replace Horse Archers.

Cities :

Carthage
Utica
Malaca
Caralis
Panormus
Leptis Parva
Cartenna
Rusicade
Gades
Rusucurru
Girba
Leptis Magna
Carthago Nova
Oea
Tingis
Rusaddir
Alalia
Selinus
Himera
Akragas
Theveste
Saguntum
Carteia
Mainake
Sexi
Abdera
Lixus
Hippo Regius
Hadrumentum
Sabrata
Soleis
Motya
Tharros
Sulcis
Nora
Mago
Palma
Ebusus
Kinyps
Melite
Lilybaeum
Tangier
Algiers
Tripoli
Sijilmasa
Casablanca
Tamanrasset
Saldae
Rusguniae
Thaenae
al-Kaf
Zouchis
Gigthis
Tacape
Zama

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Seem fine

Louis XXIV said:

Do we even know for a fact that Dido was a real person? Since the Romans only have Caesar, I don't think two Carthaginians are a priority.... Hannibal strikes me as an agressive person. I personally think Caesar was organized, industrious, and other things, but he doesn't get any of them, which makes me wonder what Hannibal would get. I'd probably say Agressive and Organized. The Carthaginians are financial, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute that to Hannibal.... Carthage's use of War Elephants have been vastly overrated in my opinion. I still think Numidian Horsemen are the best idea (and I've thought it since PTW).

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Thank you very much for all of your suggestions. Every suggestion is muchly appreciated.

What I'm trying to do in this database is to stick to historical facts as much as I can while modding these orphan civilizations in a way to make them popular, by including popular figures in history or popular myth. Hannibal was a statesman and general, but he's the only popular Carthagenian person. As is Dido, since she appears in many early Greek and Roman sources, some like respectable Virgil. She's considered as founding queen of Carthage and I think that should be enough for a fun mod that tries to revive an ancient civilization whose written records are long forgotten. Besides it's always nice to have a few extra ladies in our diplomacy screen.
About Romans having only Caesar, that's a shame. I'm a strong believer in presenting the players with as much diversity as possible. I'm sure they can add more leaders for Romans. If no one comes with a better idea (which I'm sure everyone has one when it comes to Romans) I will add Berlusconi as I'm a personal fan of his.

The same popular idea goes for War Elephants. I'm not against Numidian Horseman but Hannibal's elephants were the subject of many popular stories all through the middle ages up until today. I believe they should be given some priority for these reasons, but I will place Numidian Horesman as a second UU.

Louis XXIV said:

I personally like Rome Total War's symbol a lot (the crescent moon facing upwards with a circle below it). It could be too arabic, though. I've never seen this palm tree thing before, but I don't know if my idea is any better or worse.

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It has been suggested in this thread that palm trees would represent Carthage better, and after making some research on Carthagenian coins (which you can find here) I have concluded to have either a palm tree or a horse under a palm tree as their flag. It seems that Carthagenians loved horses (which is a good sign for their Numidian Horseman UU) and they lived under the palm trees. There are some other animals like elephants and crabs as well as some crops, but horses and palms appear like in almost every coin through their histrory.

for the vikings, i whold use the biserker agin, it was a very good uu...


i whold personly use it to replace the maceman, or the ax man
give him the same stats, but insted of a 20% *or 25%* advantage aginst foot troops, i whold give it a 50% along with amphibius asult.maby even 25+ city atack
* whold that be too over powering??*

Civilization : Australia

Leader : Gogh Whitlam

Capital : Canberra

Flag : The Australian Flag

Starting Techs : Hunting, Fishing

Great Scientists : ????

Great Merchants : ????

Great Prophets : ????

Great Artists : ????

Great Engineers : ????

Unique Unit : Dig Infantry (more defensive Infantry)

Cities :

Canberra
Sydney
Tasmania
Melbourne
Wollongong (my father's home town)
Brisbane
more, but I can't be bothered to remember any more right now...

Vietcong said:

for the vikings, i whold use the biserker agin, it was a very good uu...


i whold personly use it to replace the maceman, or the ax man
give him the same stats, but insted of a 20% *or 25%* advantage aginst foot troops, i whold give it a 50% along with amphibius asult.maby even 25+ city atack
* whold that be too over powering??*

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I like the berserkers as well, added to the Vikings. I need to wait and see the game files first to code the unit stats.

dalek master said:

Civilization : Australia
...
Unique Unit : Dig Infantry (more defensive Infantry)

Cities :

Canberra
Sydney
Tasmania
Melbourne
Wollongong (my father's home town)
Brisbane
more, but I can't be bothered to remember any more right now...

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dalek master; I know more Aussie cities than that and i haven't even been there yet. And you say your father's home town is over there, shame on you put on some more cities. lol, kidding. Can you explain the dig infantry please.

Tunch Khan said:

dalek master; I know more Aussie cities than that and i haven't even been there yet. And you say your father's home town is over there, shame on you put on some more cities. lol, kidding. Can you explain the dig infantry please.

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It represents the Australian Military during wartime-australia. A nicer name than "anzac infantry", as "anzac" may be an unpopluar word umong aussies.

Tunch Khan said:

Leader : Hannibal, Dido

Capital : Carthage

Flag : Palm tree on burgundy

Starting Techs :

Great Scientists :

Great Merchants :

Great Prophets :

Great Artists :

Great Engineers :

Unique Unit : War Elephant, Numidian Horseman

...

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Would the following be correct? I think that is the way it is in Conquests.

Starting Techs :Alphabet and Masonry


Great Scientists : Bomilcar, Tanit, Eshmuniaton


Unique Unit : Numidian Mercenary

Civilization : Serbia

Leader : Dusan

Capital : Belgrade

Flag : Red, Blue, White with 2-headed eagle

Starting Techs : Agriculture, Archery

Great Scientists : Nikola Tesla, Mihailo Pupin, Mileva Pavlovic (Albert Einstein's wife, great in physics herself, that he took most of his ideas from)

Great Merchants : Cirilo, Milutin, Nemanja,

Great Prophets : , Njegos, St. Sava, St. Nikola, St. Stefan

Great Artists : Zdravko Colic, Weird Al Yankovic , Vlade Divac

Great Engineers : Ratko, Radovan, Momcilo

Unique Unit : Chetniks (guerilla that were fighting for king in WWII against both germans and communists)

Cities :

Belgrade (Capital)
Novi Sad
Nis
Podgorica
Banja Luka
Kragujevac
Sabac
Cacak
Trebinje
Srpsko Sarajevo
Subotica
Cetinje
Niksic
Vranje
Pristina (kosovo IS Serbia)
Smederevo
Zrenjanin
UZice
Kraljevo
Leskovac
Pirot
Budva
Zajecar
Negotin
Herceg novi
Pljevlja
Kos. Mitrovica
Kotor
Bor
Pancevo

dalek master said:

It represents the Australian Military during wartime-australia. A nicer name than "anzac infantry", as "anzac" may be an unpopluar word umong aussies.

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Oh I got it, but i didn't know ANZAC would be unpopular as there's an ANZAC Memorial Day in Galippoli (Turkey) every year and the Aussies are always present with their highest representatives like Prime Minister and many Aussies travel across the world to attend it.

Danc2Lindy said:

Would the following be correct? I think that is the way it is in Conquests.
Starting Techs :Alphabet and Masonry

Great Scientists : Bomilcar, Tanit, Eshmuniaton

Unique Unit : Numidian Mercenary

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Thanks for the ideas. Added the techs and scientists. I think I placed Numidian Horseman which are mercenaries already. Let me know if that doesn't work.

Civilization: Portugal

Leader: - D. Afonso Henriques (Founder and first King of Portugal – Expansive and Agressive)
- Infante D. Henrique (Prince Henry) (Starter of the Age of Discovery - Expansive and Organized)

Capital: Lisboa (Lisbon)

Flag: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/pt).html, http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/pt-1143.html

Starting Techs:

Great Scientists: Egas Moniz (nobel prize of medicine), Pedro Nunes (mathematics, astronomy),
Bento de Jesus Caraça (mathematics), António Damásio (medicine),
Daniel Sampaio (medicine), Garcia da Orta (biology)

Great Merchants: (I put the portuguese great navigators, from age of discovery here,
I think they fit, dont really know the meaning of tycoon)
Vasco da Gama, Pedro Álvares Cabral, Fernão de Magalhães, Gil Eanes, Bartolomeu Dias.

Great Prophets: Padeira de Aljubarrota (Woman baker), Irmã Lúcia (Sister),
António de Pádua (Santo António) (Saint), Papa João XXI (Pope), Padre António Vieira (Priest)

Great Artists: Vasco Santana (cinema), Manoel de Oliveira (cinema), Luis vaz de Camões (literature),
Gil Vicente (literature), Almeida Garrett (literature), Eça de Queiroz (literature),
Fernando Pessoa (literature), José Saramago (nobel prize of literature),
Amália Rodrigues (music), Zeca Afonso (music), Carlos Paredes (music),
Maria João Pires (music), João Cutileiro (arts), Vieira da Silva (arts)

Great Engineers: Marquês de Pombal, Fontes Pereira de Melo, Siza Vieira, Edgar Cardoso, Fernando Távora

Unique Unit: Nau (Carrack) or
one from here (hard to choose):
http://www.viriatus.com/catalog.asp?Escala=54&Per=Z (since I only see ground units in civ4)


Cities:

Lisboa
Porto
Faro
Guimarães
Coimbra
Braga
Beja
Setúbal
Leiria
Aveiro
Guarda
Bragança
Ponta Delgada
Portalegre
Évora
Viseu
Vila Real
Viana do Castelo
Santarém
Funchal
Goa
Damão
Diu
Ceuta
Luanda
Lourenço Marques
Bissau
Praia

Confederate States:

Leader : Jefferson Davis, Woodrow Wilson

Capital : Richmond

Flag : 1st Confederate National Flag ( Red/White Fields, Blue Circle with white Stars)

Starting Techs :Agriculture, horseback riding

Great Scientists : George Washington Carver, Matthew Fontaine Maury

Great Merchants : Howard Hughes, Etienne de Bore

Great Prophets : MLK Jr,

Great Artists : Louis Armstrong, Elvis Presley

Great Engineers : Merewether Lewis (admittedly my knowledge is weak here, but he did find a way west to the pacific, so I'm sure he built a canoe or something along the way)

Unique Unit : Mounted Infantry, or Early Sub.

Cities :
Atlanta
Nashville
Macon
Jacksonville
Chattanooga
Knoxville
Little Rock
Houston
Dallas
Baton Rouge
Jackson
Charlotte
Charleston
Birmingham
Huntsville
Pensicola
Key West
Memphis
Fort Smith
Murfreesboro
Raleigh
Winston-Salem
Greensboro
Tulsa
Muskogee
Oaklahoma City
Auburn
Montgomery
Tuscaloosa
Selma
Tallahassee
Tampa
Gainsville
Cape Canaveral
Savannah
Dalton
Pine Bluff
El Dorado
Vicksburg
Meridian
Natchez
Biloxi
Gulfport
Sumter
Shreveport
Lake Charles
Lynchburg
Norfolk
Arlington
Kingsport
Lubbok
El Paso
Amarillo
Corpus Christi

TheBladeRoden said:

Civilization : Canada

Leader : William Lyon Mackenzie King
Pierre Trudeau

Capital : Ottowa
Flag : base red flag with a white square in its centre, featuring a red stylized 11-pointed maple leaf.

Great Scientists :Maude Abbott, Wilder Penfield, Hugh Le Caine, Gerald Hefferman, E.W.R. Steace, Frederick Banting

Great Merchants : Ken Thomson, Galen Weston, Jeff Skoll, John Irving

Great Prophets :

Great Artists : Pamela Anderson, Mike Myers, David Foley, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, William Shatner

Great Engineers : Reginald A. Fessenden, Sir Sanford Fleming, Elijah McCoy

Unique Unit : Mountie
Cities :

Toronto
Montréal
Vancouver
Ontario
Edmonton
Calgary
Quebéc
Winnipeg
Hamilton
London
Kitchener
St Catharines-Niagara
Halifax
Victoria
Windsor

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To add to his 15.

St. John's
Gander
North Sydney
Lunenburg
Yarmouth
Fredrickton
Moncton
Charlottetown
Trois-Riviers
Hull
Sudbury
North Bay
Mississauga
Thunder Bay
Sault Ste Marie
Saskatoon
Moose Jaw
Red Deer
Yellow Knife
White Horse
Iqaluit
Alert
Prince George
Banff
Stewart
Guelph
Inuvik
Churchill
Sherbrooke
Chicoutimi
Regina
Kelowna
Medicine Hat
Kamloops
Lethbridge
Victoria -- Or is this too common
Brandon
Portage La Prarie
Flin Flon
Sept-Iles

How many of each group should we try to have at a minimum? and at a max?

For cities 25-50?
Each category of great people 10-20?

Louis Riel should be a great prophet. There are a few Canadian saints too but I don't know them off of the top of my head.

Great Artists: Micheal J. Fox, Maragret Atwood, Robert Service, Tom Thompson (the rest of the group of 7),

And one minor correction it's Ottawa.

Hemiptera said:

St. John's
Gander
North Sydney
Lunenburg
Yarmouth
Fredrickton
Moncton
Charlottetown
Trois-Riviers
Hull
Sudbury
North Bay
Mississauga
Thunder Bay
Sault Ste Marie
Saskatoon
Moose Jaw
Red Deer
Yellow Knife
White Horse
Iqaluit
Alert
Prince George
Banff
Stewart
Guelph
Inuvik
Churchill
Sherbrooke
Chicoutimi
Regina
Kelowna
Medicine Hat
Kamloops
Lethbridge
Victoria -- Or is this too common
Brandon
Portage La Prarie
Flin Flon
Sept-Iles

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Alert, Yarmouth, and Iqaluit before Regina and Victoria?

wtb byzantium =)

Tunch Khan said:

We'd need some leaderheads as well, and that is going to be the toughest part I believe. The rest should be fairly easy with the World Builder and the XML.

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I always thought they were hard to make. Somehow, though, we got tons of leaders from the fans for Civ3, I think Civ4 will do just fine.....

Tunch Khan said:

The same popular idea goes for War Elephants. I'm not against Numidian Horseman but Hannibal's elephants were the subject of many popular stories all through the middle ages up until today. I believe they should be given some priority for these reasons, but I will place Numidian Horesman as a second UU.

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Little known fact is that, of the Elephants that crossed the Alps, all of them died by the second or third battle (many of them just dying in the crossing). The only one that survived was the one Hannibal road. The only place Hannibal got to really try out Elephants against the Romans was at Zama, where he lost (the Elephants were the reason he lost, since Scipio had figured out how to defend against them and caused them to panic and stampede across Hannibal's own troops). The most effective use of Carthaginian Elephants against Rome predates Hannibal and would have been in the first punic war.

BTW, after looking at some information about different units, one thing I think Numidian Horsemen should get is a withdraw ability (from what I hear, Horse Archers do not). I'm not sure what the Horse Archer gets, but the Keshik gets first stike, so I think they should get it as well. So that would be 6 strength, 2 movement, 25% retreat chance. Not sure how powerful that is, don't want it to completely outclass contemporary units (especially Roman Praetorians).

It has been suggested in this thread that palm trees would represent Carthage better, and after making some research on Carthagenian coins (which you can find here) I have concluded to have either a palm tree or a horse under a palm tree as their flag. It seems that Carthagenians loved horses (which is a good sign for their Numidian Horseman UU) and they lived under the palm trees. There are some other animals like elephants and crabs as well as some crops, but horses and palms appear like in almost every coin through their histrory.

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OK, than that's cool

SuperBeaverInc. said:

Alert, Yarmouth, and Iqaluit before Regina and Victoria?

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I suppose I should have ordered them by importance, or at least by aproximate founding date. Instead I just went east to west and then realized I was doing provincial capitals too.


Here is an ordered list by aprox size/importance. Starting with capitals and fixed a few spleling mistakes.

Ottawa

Provincial Capitals

Toronto
Québec
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Halifax
St. John's
Victoria
Regina
Fredricton
Charlottetown

Territorial Capitals

Yellowknife
Whitehorse
Iqaluit

The non-capital important cities

Montréal
Vancouver
Calgary
Mississauga

The rest in no particular order

Saskatoon
Moose Jaw
Red Deer
London
Kitchener
Windsor
Gander
Churchill
Sherbrooke
Chicoutimi
Kelowna
North Sydney
Lunenburg
Moncton
Trois-Riviers
Gatineau
Sudbury
North Bay
Thunder Bay
Hamilton
Sault Ste Marie
Brandon
Portage La Prarie
Alert
Prince George
Banff
Yarmouth
Stewart
Guelph
Inuvik
Medicine Hat
Kamloops
Lethbridge
Sept-Iles
Squamish
Flin Flon
Punkydoodles Corner

Ok some of those may be on there for my amusement

Some more prophets care of Wikipedia: Jean de Brébeuf, Noël Chabanel,Antoine Daniel, Charles Garnier, René Goupil, Isaac Jogues, Jean de Lalande, Gabriel Lalemant.

Danc2Lindy said:

Unique Unit : Numidian Mercenary

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One thing about PTW's Numidian Mercenary is that they intentionally misnamed it. Carthage was a rich nation that depended completely on hiring mercenaries. They used Spanish troops, Phoenician troops (from other Punic cities besides Carthage herself, which was exempt from serving), and even Celtic troops (Hannibal especially relied on them to take the blunt of Roman attacks because many of his soldiers died crossing the alps and he could readily replenish them). But a good portion were African. The Numidian tribes that lived near by were good for light cavalry (such as the javelin throwing horsemen they were famous for). But their foot soldiers weren't very good, being mostly lightly armed skirmishers. The bulk of the heavy infantry were Pikemen from Libya. Firaxis was going to call Carthage's uu the Libyan Mercenary (check the INI file, it still says Libyan Mercenary). Unfortunately, Libyan Mercenary sounds like some kind of terrorist, so they changed it to Numidian Mercenary.

EDIT: Need to comment on this

Starting Techs :Alphabet and Masonry

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Isn't Alphabet later in Civ4? Do civs really start with stuff so advanced? Since Carthage is historically a mercantilistic power than dominated the mediteranian, I figure they have to start with fishing, so they can get sailing easily. The Phoenicians (who founded Carthage) are the origins of our modern alphabet, so the other tech besides fishing probably should be something that leads to Alphabet. The Wheel works well, since they are from the Middle East).