SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

I say go for it, CB! Looks great. Got those creative juices flowin'! I've been going through and finding key events and quotes and such so I'll post the general info and you can incorporate as you see fit.

Ragnar took his time getting back to the boats and arrived after dark. His counselors had arrived a long time before he did and were anxious about what to do next. They were gathered around the fire cooking deer and marshmallows.

“Okay, guys, listen up. I’m only gonna say this once,” he said, as he strode into the firelight.

He paused to make sure everyone was looking at him. He had decided to level with these guys, but not right away. He also decided to drop the dumb barbarian routine.

“We are at war with the Indians!”

Six pairs of eyes gleamed with anticipation. Then dulled with the realization that there was not much glory or storytelling in fighting the Indians.

“Well, la-de-da,” said zyxy, “how dull. Declare war on Monday, capture Delhi on Tuesday and have Gandhi cleaning our bathrooms by Friday night.”

“Wrong,” said Ragnar, “we’re not doing things that way this time.”

“So we capture Delhi next Tuesday?” asked Methos.

“Nope.”

“Next month?” offered ControlFreak.

“Nayh.”

“Oh, we’re going to go get reinforcements and pillage his land and capture his workers and make them our slaves and build roads for us and -“

“Hey, I like that thinking WarDance, but no, that is not what we are going to do.”

“Nukes! We get to use nukes. Ka-boom!” exclaimed CommandoBob.

“No, it is even better than that,” said Ragnar.

“Are we going to capture Delhi?” asked Niklas.

“No, I think not,” Ragnar replied.

“We’re not going to capture Delhi and we are at war, right?”

“Yes to both. Well, you can capture Delhi, but not right away. You see, I want a final solution to the Indian problem.”

“And capturing their capital is not the right solution?” queried Methos.

“Not in this case. If we capture Delhi, we will still have Indians around. I want them gone.”

“Well, when we capture Delhi we raze it and presto! no more Indians,” said Methos.

“Or just nuke’em again and again and again until they’re all gone,” said CommandoBob.

“Too messy with the nukes. And the neighbors get unfriendly when you raze a town for no good reason. No, I want the Indians removed.”

“Removed to where?”

“Somewhere far, far away.”

“Yes..?”

“I want to send Gandhi to the stars!” said Ragnar.

“You mean Hollywood?” asked ControlFreak.

“No, outer space! You know; the moon, the planets, the stars, class M inhabitable planets on other solar systems, Roddenberry warp drives, spaceships. I want to put the Indians on another planet!”

No one said a word as they all digested this announcement. Finally, zyxy spoke.

“Exactly what have you been smoking?”

Great stuff.
Though I think this stuff might be better off between spoiler tags, to be a bit easy on the readers.

Turn 0, 850AD: MM which takes > 2 hours in 2 sessions (= 2 reloads). Mostly details, as everything is in good shape. I switch a few builds, because I prefer aqueducts before libs if the city is at size 6 already. I also set most towns on Tadpole to wealth, except some that have too many shields invested. I shuffle some troops around to reduce flip risks. Texas Horses founded.

IT: Built 2 workers, 1 factory, 2 settlers.

Turn 1, 860AD: Upstate New York and East Virginia founded.

IT: Built 1 market, 1 factory, 1 worker.

Turn 2, 870AD: zzz.

IT: Corp -> Refining. Switch all 5 coal plants to SE. Built 2 factories, 1 worker, 1 bank, 2 aqueduct.

Turn 3, 880AD: sci 90%. Smurkz on Ice founded.

IT: Built 1 infantry, 5 SE, 1 harbor, 1 factory. Get the Wall St Message, and

Again??

The Spanish start Magellan in Barcelona.

Turn 4, 890AD: Barcelona i size 6 and probably does 15 shields (wheat, furs, 3 hills, 1 mountain), so needs more than 20 turns. We can easily be faster than that, for example 'heim does 24.

Switch Vladivo to Wall St. sci 80%.

IT: Built 1 harbor, 1 worker, 2 markets, 1 factory, 1 court.

Turn 5, 900AD: zzz.

IT: Built 5 courts, 2 infantry, 1 settler, 1 arty, and


Turn 6, 910AD: Sell incense to Spain for 22 gpt. sci down to 70%.

IT: Ghandi wants a chat. Refining -> Steel. Built 1 infantry, 1 factory, 1 rax, 1 settler, 1 temple, 1 court.

Turn 7, 920AD: We have several Oil sources. What's more, Spain has none . Smalltown America and Oe-Hah founded. Celts have settled RubberTundra Island.

IT: Built 3 infantry, 1 bank, 1 arty, 1 university, 1 library, 1 market.

Turn 8, 930AD: Our workers are running out of jobs and I start adding them to our cities. Sell Wool to Spain for 22 gpt, and Ivory for 23 gpt. Spain now has all 9 luxes, 3 homegrown, 5 from us, and they must be getting silks from Carthage.

IT: Renew RoP with America. Built 1 court, 1 uni, 2 infantry, 1 arty, 2 aqueducts

Turn 9, 940AD: sci 60%. Alpharetta settled.

IT: Built 2 courts, 1 worker, 1 temple, 1 aqueduct, 1 infantry, 1 bank.

Turn 10, 950AD: sci 50%.

Notes:

• I didn't MM very carefully. It takes long enough already just managing those workers.
• 'adelphia or 'heim can switch to prebuild for Magellan. Spain will sell Nav for 1400 gold, or we can make a trade with Steam. In both cases, I would wait as long as possible. Barcelona still needs at least 15 turns I think, 'adelphia and 'heim both need about 10-12 turns if they use their current build as prebuild.
• Sustainable sci is up to 1250 beakers per turn, max is > 1400 bpt. Enough for the IA, and nearly enough for the cheapest Modern Techs .
• We have several Oil sources, but Spain has no Oil . Meaning, once we have tanks we can steamroll Spain whenever we want. Spain does have a few rubber sources. The Spanish troops are nervously moving about, but they are not very threatening.
• I've been moving infantry and arty to Tadpole, and outdated units back to Mainland for disbanding. We have quite a few cities with nothing left to build, they can do arty or infantry.
• It's actually a good idea to build temples in size 12 cities (after all other improvements), they'll get WLTKD.
• Steel comes in in 1, science spending is exactly right. Mass Prod will come in on turn 9 of the next set, so we could prepare some Docks. After that, I would go for Flight, and then the rest.
• I've started to add workers back into cities. There's almost nothing for them to do anymore. If we want, we could send some to Tadpole to construct border defenses, but it's not really needed.
• Some of Tadpole's cities are stabilized, some are still growing. Most can be stabilized at size 5 or 6, with 3-4 scientists. There are a few settlers under construction, just squeeze in a few more cities.

The Books of Smurkzland:


The save.

Roster:

WarDance - skipped
zyxy - just played
Niklas - up
CommandoBob - deck
ControlFreak
Methos - ghosting

Sounds like a typically great round zyxy!

I've got a full plate of meetings and weekend guests so I doubt I'll be able to contribute much until Monday. Hope to take a quick peek at our progress before that.

Funny about Sing Sing, I got the flip notice at least once on my turnset too. Until they move in their capitol I guess it's an annoyance we'll have to put up with.

Pity about them getting the rubber island but I don't think anything needs to be done. And it's greatly offset by the fact that Spain has no oil.

Looks like another great set!!

I'm not at home to look at the save... has India picked up any new techs?

Looking good as expected.

"Got it", I will play after all, don't want to miss out on all the action.

Some random impressions:

• India still lacks Poly and CoL so they are at least 161 turns from Education.
• Upcoming research path will be Combustion-Mass Production-Flight-Medicine....
• Spain hasn't gotten any new techs the last turnset. This could mean that she is working on something expensive, like Medicine (or Steam Power more likely). Ottos will have some tech coming in 13 turns from now at 40-turn research.
• The only source of Oil on the southern parts is near Kalmurkz Reborn. We might want to consider keeping that town to keep India from Tanks/MAs. OTOH it would mean a larger border to defend. Too bad you can't pillage resources...
• RoP with Spain runs out in 1, any reason to renew it at this point? Any reason not to?
• In two turns we lose 70 gpt and furs from Spain. We must renew for the furs since gems are out of reach for us now. I will sell her Steam Power.
• The Vest has no harbor. If we don't want Carthage to trade with Spain, we could always pillage the roads along the border on our side, we have workers to quickly rebuild them. Or we could simply declare on Carthage when the Treaty runs out in 4 turns.

Will be back with more thoughts and a strategy plan. Don't know when I will play, probably saturday, sunday at the very latest.

None of the AI learned any techs this set. This leads me to think that Spain is going for Nationalism. Even at second price it's expensive, and the AI's always go for this tech. Ottomans probably do Communism .

We can always pillage the Oil resource in the South by the time we hand it over to India, and station some infantry or mech infantry on top of it to prevent reconnection. I'm not so worried about defending either a town or a tile except for the WW effects on India, and in any case India will probably go for easy targets first.

Spanish RoP: We have 1-2 troops in Spain I think - on Tadpole and some of the islands. Also, we can probably get some gpt for RoP. OTOH, the RoP gives Spain the opportunity to reach rather deep into Tadpole and RoP-rape.

The 70 gpt is perhaps not so neccessary, and neither are the furs - we are at or close to WLTKD in most cities. Do we really want to give up Steam this early? It will put Spain closer to Industrialization (and US) and give her rails for mobility and higher production - IIRC Spain does have Coal. If you trade, at least make sure to get Navigation as well, and to get full price please.

Yes, why not pillage the rail connection, sell our Silks to Spain, and reconnect? Sounds good. DoW is fine too.

Still haven't looked at the save.

It won't stop me from weighing in though.

The disadvantage of camping an infantry on the oil is we'll incur War Weariness right? If that's acceptable, then I'm fine preventing it's connection with a small defensive operation.

The ROP helps us to get to and from Richbourgh does it not? Other than that, there isn't much benefit is there? (She may not ask in which case we could just let it go. Make sure you're preferences are set "Don't Always Renegotiate Deals.")

On the other hand, if she's after Oil and I'm assuming there's some on Tad, we do risk a resource grab ROP-rape. Maybe with rails, it is better to cancel the ROP. We still must watch for Conquistadors. They're not that tough, but can easily capture undefended cities.

I do not want to sell Steam Power. We can live without the GP and possibly even the furs. It's not worth the accellerated US competition. I'm sure Spain is working on Nationalism.

We already have trashed our rep so there's no reason not to redeclare on Carthage whenever we're ready. If we need the silk sale to Spain earlier than the peace treaty is up, go ahead and declare. Use the war to disconnect their extra silk so they can't easily trade it again. We want them to save it until India can buy it which won't happen until the Great Awakening.

Long Term Strategy

Get India to space:

• Tech Elevator: Keep India backwards until we have reached at least Space Flight. Some time after this, exactly when TBD, let them conquer the GLib town (Grad) to get all the techs up to that point (except Music Theory and Recycling ).
• Indian Empire: Gift India our southern core, i.e. everything south of Smuez Canal and Halden (Holdem? ). This should be done via proxy, i.e. giving the towns to some other AI before letting India have them. This will mean that we stay clear of WW. It will also mean that the chance of them flipping back to us are reduced, which might make Gandhi think twice before razing.
• The Last Few Steps: If we let India ride the elevator to an earlier floor (seems likely), we need to get the last techs accross. Hopefully this can be done via proxy too, TBD.
• Climbing the tech tree: We must maintain 4-turn research at least to the point where we let the elevator run.
• ToE: Hopefully gives us Space Flight and Superconductor.
• Golden Age: We want this in the early MT probably, triggered by US. We probably don't want to let the elevator ride until our GA is spent, suggesting something like we give India (at least) 7-8 MT techs leaving (at most) 4-5 to go.
• Spain: Should go down eventually, probably with tanks or MA. We might want to take them before they get Infantry.
• Other AI: Ottomans stay around for the free MT tech, the others to act as proxies.

Short Term Strategy

• Research: Steel(1)-Medicine(4)-Combustion(4)-Mass Production(1).
• Infrastructure: Keep improving 1st and 2nd tier towns. Lots of coastal towns should prepare for Commercial Docks when MP comes in. Check each town to see if it's worth the upkeep. Sages should definitely have one, as should Delphia and Olive. Others are more uncertain, or at least less urgent. Towns with nothing to build keep building infs/arty.
• Wonders: Start a prebuild for Magellan in New Heim who wouldn't benefit much from a Commercial Docks.
• Trades: Major trade with Spain runs out in 2 turns. Assess the situation, probably don't renew the trade right away. Keep draining Isa for gpt, but keep Steam back for as long as possible.
• Warfare: Make a phony war on Carthage 4 turns from now to stop the silk trade with Spain. Sell Spain our silks instead.
• Workers: Don't know really. Keep railing and improving where needed, keep some in reserve for pollution cleanups. Others could possibly be joined to 2nd tier towns.

Will play tomorrow.

EDIT: Never mind the 4 turns, our rep is trashed already as CF pointed out. Regarding the Oil and Kalmurkz, it won't affect me in this turnset so we can take that discussion later.
EDIT2: Changed research plan.

Plan looks good to me. EDIT: our rep is not trashed completely btw. For example, Spain will give 3 gold for 1 gpt. It might matter for alliances (I don't know), so perhaps cutting the roads is safer?

If workers have really nothing to do, they could construct border defenses at Halden/Smuez. Not really needed though.

Just a little note: if you want to drain Spanish gpt (a good idea for several reasons) it might be an idea to research Medicine next. It would make safer trade material than Steam.

In any case, we will need something to trade for Navigation within some 10-15 turns, so at least we may want to do Medicine before Flight.

A drawback is that MassProd will be delayed by 4 turns. Not a big problem I think. Also, I don't really believe someone will research Medicine for us with 13 turns, so we'll have to do it ourselves anyway.

----- -----

On a different note, I'm running some test to see if India will leave her cage. Doesn't look like it, she just whips the town I gave her down to size 1 and fills it with innumerable spears (which goes very slowly at 1 spt).

A similar thing seems to have happened in our game: Indianapos is at size 3 (in 950AD; it was at 6 in 750 before we gifted it, and size 2 in 830, 850, 870, 900, 910 -- that's all he saves I could find). So it was starved/whipped down, and is now growing slowly again.

I hope to have some more test results later this weekend. In particular, I hope to test India's pointy stick abilities.

Please read this post for discussion and comment.

Hmm, if we're doing Medicine before Mass Production, we might as well do it right away after Steel. I agree that it would be most unlikely for any AI to research Medicine for us, and that delaying Mass Production 4 turns is not a big thing (estimated loss of some 40 bpt during 4 turns, which is exactly the 4 turns that we research Medicine). I've updated my strategy post to reflect this.

The tests sound interesting, keep up the good work.

---- ----

Regarding the proposed rules change, I don't think it changes much for us. I have no strong opinion either way.

Main difference is: India just needs one developed town to do Apollo, and multiple to do spaceship. I have no opinion (yet). I am guessing it proves extremely tedious to make India do anything but "run the economy into the ground."

----- ---------- -------- ------

My test sofar indicates that India first builds 8 spears and a temple in the gifted town. After that the town starts on archers. It doesn't seem to matter whether she's at war or peace, actually. This process takes forever, because the AI thinks that poprushing is the best way to do this. In my test the gifted town is at size 1 with a clown for long stretches of time, and as soon as it becomes content and grows to size 2, Ghandi uses the :whip:. Also, occasionally troops vaporise because India's treasury is empty.

In the test I gifted the town in 610BC, and the first archer appeared in 660AD. That's about 80-85 turns I think.

I didn't raise the free unit support for India to Deity level, that may make a difference - for good or for bad, I don't know. Also, I generated the map with the Vanilla editor, that may make a difference. (I don't seem to have the PtW editor.)

IIRC CF reported the training of a settler in his test, I haven't seen that. Maybe there needs to be a reachable open spot, I don't know.

Played the preflight and one full turn, don't have time for the rest tonight so I will play them first thing in the morning. Nothing surprising so far. I disrupted the Carthaginian-Spanish silk trade, and Steel is in. More info tomorrow.

The two great Viking ships, Kon and Tiki, were slowly drifting with the currents as Ragnar and his advisors had now left the island of India. The two large rafts of balsa wood, bound together with rope, no sails, and a piece of wood between the logs to serve as a rudder, were the entire fleet of the Viking empire.

“This is just great,” growled Ragnar to Niklas. “We are destined to rule the sea, be masters of the ocean and yet one of my inner circle of counselors can’t swim.”

“Some people are just afraid of the water.”

“Vikings are not afraid of water!”

“So when was the last time you had a bath?”

“We don’t need baths. We let our odor overpower our enemies. And anyway, you have bigger concerns than how I smell.”

“I do?”

“Yes, you do. I am going to be leaving you shortly and do not know when I will return. That means you have to take this bunch and get Gandhi into space. I wish you luck. You’re going to need it,” said Ragnar.

“Huh?

“Just look at them. What a motley crew. I mean, what is CommandoBob doing?”

“The same thing as yesterday. He has a coconut and wants to see if two swallows can fly and carry it together.”

“Is that rational behavior by anyone’s definition?”

“Well, it keeps him busy. At least he is not singing his blasted Spam Song. Nor does he have that ghostly look that Methos does. I think Methos has had a taste of Civ4 and cannot come back to this reality,” said Niklas.

“But you will keep him.” It was a statement phrased as a question.

“Sure. He has helped and done his part. He has earned the right to be part of the finish, whatever it is.”

Just then, on the other raft, WarDance yelled “Rita!” and jumped up and dove into the hut on the raft. zyxy laughed and got some more water to throw on him.

“I mean, really, a Viking calling for his mother whenever he gets wet!” said Ragnar.

“WarDance told me that Rita was the name of a big storm that attacked his home city with a lot of rain and wind and that is why he is afraid of the water.”

“People that give names to storms are sissies. Now that zyxy; he seems to be my kind of guy.”

“He does get the big picture and knows how to use it. His ability to do that will be a big help. He can see the future and then explain how to make it happen. He and ControlFreak make a good planning pair. zyxy sees the big picture and ControlFreak lives in the details.”

“You’re sure?” asked Ragnar.

“As sure as I can be. Time will tell, but we should be able to get Gandhi to the stars and out of your hair.”

“Good, because I’m leaving. I may drop in here and there to see how you are doing and maybe even change my mind on what to do with that wimpy Indian. But I will back and I will be watching, so don’t disappoint me.”

“Wouldn’t think of it. But where are you going?”

“Oh, I’ve been invited to be the focus of a game where women break my heart. It is MeteorPunch’s idea and it seems to be a good one. I’m not fond of the name though. A Madman and his Ladies. I’m not mad, just misunderstood.”

“So when will you –“ but he was already gone.

Niklas took a deep breath and said to himself, “Time to get to work.”

With all the difficulty India has in doing things in any sort of coherent order I am forced to conclude that Gandhi's two main advisors are Gilligan and Skipper.

Just to let you know that I'm playing, I'm nearly done with the 10 but I need to break for dinner. I'll be finished in an hour or two at most.

>>The Save<<

Preflight:
MM to get banks in 2 in Delphia and Olive. Lose a turn on an arty in River and some bpt, no biggie.
Set some Tadpole towns back to growth, they can support more scientists. Switch taxmen to scientists elsewhere to recover Steel in 1.
Switch New Heim to US as a prebuild for Magellan.

Turn off Always Renegotiate Deals.

IBT: Research Steel, continue on Medicine.
Build worker, 4 courts, factory, bank, arty, inf.

960 AD (1):
Implement the resource disconnection against The Vest. Sure enough the deal to Spain ends. In hindsight this may have been stupid, maybe India won't want to trade for Carthaginian silks now with Carthage's rep trashed.
Anyway, Spain has nothing to give us for our silks, so no deal yet.

Science at 50%, will go down even further later on.

Save game at this point, continue tomorrow.

IBT: Ottos want to buy our WM for 2 gp. They now have Navigation.
Indian archer captures 2 workers! Why were they unprotected?

Build temple, 2 banks, 5 inf, court, 2 arty, uni, temple, library
Pollution at Albu.
Fur deal runs out (and 70 gpt).

970 AD (2): Bombard the archer down to red, takes 3 arty. Kill him with eSword flawlessly.

Spain has Nationalism as expected. They have started up the silk trade with Carthage again, I'll just have to disconnect at the right time then. She would pay Furs, Nav and 53 gpt (all) for Steam, but I'll wait for Medicine.

Cape Smurkz is the only town to be adversly affected by the lost happiness, have to hire a specialist.
Join some workers to towns, prefer natives.

Sci to 40%

IBT: WLTK ends all over.
Build settler, inf.

980 AD (3):
MMing. Settle Testtube near Washington.

IBT: Build bank, 2 inf, library, 2 arty.

990 AD (4): zzzz

IBT: Medicine comes in, go for Combustion.
Build 5 inf, worker, court, temple, 2 arty.

1000 AD (5):
Sell Medicine to Spain for Navigation, WM, Furs, 80 gp and 55 gpt (out of 57).
Sell Medicine to Ottos for 76 gp and 22 gpt, probably what they get from Spain for Nationalism.

Science to 70%. Join a few workers more. Build two fortresses out of sheer boredom.

Switch New Heim to Magellan, ETA 6 with some MMing.

IBT: Build worker, market, bank, 3 arty, inf, uni.
Lots of towns are back in WLTKD.
Palace expands.

1010 AD (6):
Spain has free 4 gpt. Not enough to warrant a silk deal. Dyes keep running at 17 gpt, won't renew it yet.

IBT: Trade embargo against us between India and Ottomans end. Phew, finally!
Build factory, temple, 2 arty, 2 inf.

1020 AD (7):
Spain now has 14 gpt to spare. Resign the dyes deal at 22 gpt (instead of 17).

Sci down to 60%.

IBT: Build 2 settlers, 3 inf, temple, 3 arty, court, SE, 2 markets

1030 AD (8): zzzz

IBT: Research Combustion, continue on Mass Production.
Build 2 inf, market.
Pollution at Sages.

1040 AD (9): zzzz

IBT: Build 4 arty, 2 inf, market, uni.
SingSing wants to join us again.

1050 AD (10):
Join a few workers. Leave most workers for next player.

EDIT: Roster:

• WarDance
• zyxy
• Niklas - Just Played
• CommandoBob - UP!
• ControlFreak - On Deck!
• Methos - ghosting

Don't have time to write more now, will add some hand-off notes tomorrow.

I just had a quick look at the save. I don't know if it's the posts in the maintenance thread but this game seems to have a case of the doldrums.

At any rate, nothing out of the ordinary either good or bad. Just a few comments:

• Handing off with a comment that worker moves must be completed but all the workers fortified seemed to be bad etiquette to me.
• With all the infantry that we're generating, why are we defending a big stack of artillery with a single Medival? The separation between Ottoman and Mongol could also use some higher defensive numbers. That goes for the wall between us and Carthage.
• Older units were to be disbanded to help improvements. A good start would be the library in Stein.
• Spain had Military Tradition. I assume that they researched Nationalism until it was cheap enough, bought it from the Ottomans and then researched MT on their own, fairly quickly. I think we need more infantry on Tad very soon and think we ought to attack them in 15 turns when our last big GPT expires. That should be enough time to build some tanks and continue to build them during the war. The Celts will be reduced to Sing Sing sometime during this campaign. I suspect they will buy in a lot of allies which will be good for War Happiness. The campaign itself will be good for Player Happiness.. The extra territory will also help move all the scientists off of Smurk so that the Atoll towns could start growing in preparation for their indian occupation.

We never really talked about the new Space Dumbo but I'm willing to stick it out. I think the problem with India is they have an inferiority complex. I wonder what would happen if we ended up being "weak" compared to their army. I wonder if they'd stop building a ton of units and allow themselves some more productive builds. That would mean waiting until all SS techs are know and then giving them our entire empire except for a select few cities that were easily defendable. Not important yet but it's getting there soon.