If evil people go to hell, then why didnt god make everyone good? (more indepth)

For most of their lives, I doubt that Albert Schweitzer or Mother Theresa were capable of evil. But that doesn't erase the moral character of their actions. [emphasis added]

I goofed big time, there. They were capable - it's just that there was a zero probability that they would do it. That's a big difference, and I ought to know it. :blush:

Anyway, the bottom line on this thread is:
A purely good God would only create people who only, and freely, do good.
A purely evil God would only create people who only, and freely, do evil.
A mixed-up, or insane, God, would create people much like they are in reality.

The god(s) must be crazy!
 
Anyway, the bottom line on this thread is:
A purely good God would only create people who only, and freely, do good.
A purely evil God would only create people who only, and freely, do evil.
A mixed-up, or insane, God, would create people much like they are in reality.

That seems to me to only be true is God is completely omnipotent and can thus create beings with free will who will nonetheless act exactly as He/She/It/They desires.
 
That seems to me to only be true is God is completely omnipotent and can thus create beings with free will who will nonetheless act exactly as He/She/It/They desires.

Sire, your post per day has become 11. It is extraordinarily much. Please feel free to continue.
 
That sounds like a paradox to me.

Plotinus explained it well in his "ask a theologian" thread. The simplest version goes like this: if God exists and is omnipotent, then just before creating someone, He can look into the future and see what this person would do. If He does not approve, then He can try again with a different person. And so on, until He has as many people as He wants.
 
Wrong. But if thats your basis for the arguement; well, there isnt really any arguement.

Free will does exist. So does personal choice and responsibility in life. No one is 'doomed' to be a murderer. Sorry, I just aint buying that one.

There is a simple way out of this. I'll put it in the form of a joke:

A man, having stolen from a shop, was brought in front of a judge. Having a superficial knowledge of philosophy and evolutionary psychology, he defends himself thus, "Your Honour, I wasn't responsible for my actions. Free will doesn't exist, and I acted as my genes, experiences, and circumstances would have made me act." The judge replied, "I agree. In fact, I actually completely buy your argument. You're right, there's no way you could have acted otherwise. And by the same standard, of course, I sentence you to a fine of $1500, and one month of community service. Why? Because that is what my genes, experiences, and circumstances make me do. You see, there really is no way that I can act otherwise."



Anyway - what you've stated isn't really much of an argument. It's like saying, "If X is true, then bad things will happen. I don't want bad things to happen. Therefore, I don't want X to be true. So X is not true." Just because Judaeo-Christian notions of morality would completely collapse, and so would our current concepts of justice with it, if this idea became widespread, does not in fact mean that the idea isn't true. ;)

To quote Nietzsche on this (from his The Twilight of the Idols):

The Error of Free Will: Today we no longer have any tolerance for the idea of "free will": we see it only too clearly for what it really is — the foulest of all theological fictions, intended to make mankind "responsible" in a religious sense — that is, dependent upon priests. Here I simply analyze the psychological assumptions behind any attempt at "making responsible."

Whenever responsibility is assigned, it is usually so that judgment and punishment may follow. Becoming has been deprived of its innocence when any acting-the-way-you-did is traced back to will, to motives, to responsible choices: the doctrine of the will has been invented essentially to justify punishment through the pretext of assigning guilt. All primitive psychology, the psychology of will, arises from the fact that its interpreters, the priests at the head of ancient communities, wanted to create for themselves the right to punish — or wanted to create this right for their God. Men were considered "free" only so that they might be considered guilty — could be judged and punished: consequently, every act had to be considered as willed, and the origin of every act had to be considered as lying within the consciousness (and thus the most fundamental psychological deception was made the principle of psychology itself).

Today, we immoralists have embarked on a counter movement and are trying with all our strength to take the concepts of guilt and punishment out of the world — to cleanse psychology, history, nature, and social institutions and sanctions of these ideas. And there is in our eyes no more radical opposition than that of the theologians, who continue to infect the innocence of becoming by means of the concepts of a "moral world-order," "guilt," and "punishment." Christianity is religion for the executioner.

What alone can be our doctrine? That no one gives a man his qualities — neither God, nor society, nor his parents and ancestors, nor he himself. (The nonsense of the last idea was taught as "intelligible freedom" by Kant — and perhaps by Plato.) No one is responsible for a man's being here at all, for his being such-and-such, or for his being in these circumstances or in this environment. The fatality of his existence is not to be disentangled from the fatality of all that has been and will be. Human beings are not the effect of some special purpose, or will, or end; nor are they a medium through which society can realize an "ideal of humanity" or an "ideal of happiness" or an "ideal of morality." It is absurd to wish to devolve one's essence on some end or other. We have invented the concept of "end": in reality there is no end.

A man is necessary, a man is a piece of fatefulness, a man belongs to the whole, a man is in the whole; there is nothing that could judge, measure, compare, or sentence his being, for that would mean judging, measuring, comparing, or sentencing the whole. But there is nothing besides the whole. That nobody is held responsible any longer, that the mode of being may not be traced back to a primary cause, that the world does not form a unity either as a sensorium or as "spirit" — that alone is the great liberation. With that idea alone we absolve our becoming of any guilt. The concept of "God" was until now the greatest objection to existence. We deny God, we deny the responsibility that originates from God: and thereby we redeem the world.






We do? I thought this was a highly debated point among philosopher's and neuroscientists. And doesn't that contrast with your second sentence, "we can choose our actions to a degree"?

I don't think anyone believes that we have ABSOLUTE free will, that our decisions aren't impacted by anything but our other choices. But if we truly can choose are actions to any degree, then we have a least a little free will. So your post is contradictory, and needs to be better explained.

It's either all-or-nothing, Elrohir.

Either we have some acausal entity which is in some way "deciding" what to do independently of the laws of physics and the universe, and independent of laws and rules in general, or there is a causal entity which is bound to the laws of the universe. Free will either exists or does not exist, because the problem of its existence can be reduced to the debate between monism, dualism, and materialism, and the three are mutually exclusive. Only in the first case (pure monism of consciousness) can true free will exist. The second (dualism) is far too logically inconsistent to be seriously considered today. The third, of course, denies free will entirely.

Personally, I lean to the side of "does not exist". The illusion of free will arises from the fact that our consciousness of ourselves is limited to only a small part of the brain/mind, so that most of our impulses and moral judgements appear acausal, because we are not conscious of the mechanisms underlying them. Most of our "reasons" for our moral judgements are, in fact, post hoc rationalisations for what our impulses instinctively tell us is "right" or "wrong". This idea is substrate-neutral, by the way - it does not matter whether the illusion arises from the pure monism of consciousness, or whether consciousness arises as an emergent property of matter.
 
Since when does God create people? Even if the Bible is to be believed, he only created 2.

Some theologians have held, IIRC, that God keeps inventing new souls every time parents create a new human organism. But even if someone held that the first two people were sufficient cause, in all respects, for all the other people, essentially the same point:
if God exists and is omnipotent, then just before creating someone, He can look into the future and see what this person would do.
would still hold.

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out how :mischief:
 
aneeshm, i think we better consult biology and mathematics than philosophy or psychology concerning the existance of free will, especially if the philopsher in question died 107 years ago and had no clue about neuroscience...
 
Personally, I lean to the side of "does not exist". The illusion of free will arises from the fact that our consciousness of ourselves is limited to only a small part of the brain/mind, so that most of our impulses and moral judgements appear acausal, because we are not conscious of the mechanisms underlying them. Most of our "reasons" for our moral judgements are, in fact, post hoc rationalisations for what our impulses instinctively tell us is "right" or "wrong". This idea is substrate-neutral, by the way - it does not matter whether the illusion arises from the pure monism of consciousness, or whether consciousness arises as an emergent property of matter.

If you have no free will, don't you think it's a bit far-fetched that the deterministic Universe ran its clockwork course for billions of years leading to this event of you arguing against free will?

How likely is it that we are having this conversation, if free will doesn't exist?
 
If you have no free will, don't you think it's a bit far-fetched that the deterministic Universe ran its clockwork course for billions of years leading to this event of you arguing against free will?

Why do you think it is unlikely?

I don't mean this confrontationally, I genuinely don't get it.

How likely is it that we are having this conversation, if free will doesn't exist?

Again, I'm lost. :confused:
 
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.
 
Why do you think it is unlikely?

I don't mean this confrontationally, I genuinely don't get it.

Think about it. Two creatures, in a fully deterministic Universe, arguing about whether free will exists.

Doesn't that strike you as an oddity?

It's almost as if someone would have to have had would up the "machine" in a very specific way - so that this exact moment would happen... you know.. in order to see it happen, nudge one of his God-buddies, and go "look! isn't that funy?" and the other guy'd go "LOL"
 
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill.

k ill stop now =p
 
Think about it. Two creatures, in a fully deterministic Universe, arguing about whether free will exists.

Doesn't that strike you as an oddity?

Not really, no.

I know that it seems odd when you first start understanding it, but then the oddity fades away.

It's almost as if someone would have to have had would up the "machine" in a very specific way - so that this exact moment would happen... you know.. in order to see it happen, nudge one of his God-buddies, and go "look! isn't that funy?" and the other guy'd go "LOL"

I'd say the Anthropic Principle applies here.
 
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