Consciousness: what it is, where it comes from, do machines can have it and why do we care?

Is consciousness possible in:


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If consciousness could somehow spring into existence caused by advanced computing power, or advanced algorithms, that moment would have happened decades ago. Studies tell us that consciousness already exist in fetuses when the biological brain is created. When the brain has no 'programming' or memory at all, other than what it is born with.
How can we say that consciousness hasn't already happened in advanced algorithms ?
The thing is, consciousness is already a very murky definition, and even the broad acceptation of it is inherently only perceivable by the self. We only recognize consciousness on others due to similarity of reactions to stimuli, and that means we can only recognize on what is already very similar to us, and only because we project ourselves.

How could we know or detect if a program is actually conscious ? How could we even envision what could be consciousness for a program ?
 
How can we say that consciousness hasn't already happened in advanced algorithms ?
The thing is, consciousness is already a very murky definition, and even the broad acceptation of it is inherently only perceivable by the self. We only recognize consciousness on others due to similarity of reactions to stimuli, and that means we can only recognize on what is already very similar to us, and only because we project ourselves.

How could we know or detect if a program is actually conscious ? How could we even envision what could be consciousness for a program ?
Yes, one's definition is the fundamental driver in all this. I would think that for a program to to demonstrate consciousness it would have to act outside of its programming. But I do need to give this a bit more thought.
 
Yes, one's definition is the fundamental driver in all this. I would think that for a program to to demonstrate consciousness it would have to act outside of its programming. But I do need to give this a bit more thought.
I don't see how acting outside of a programming would be necessary for, or conversely a proof of, consciousness. Why would being aware of one's existence would require to go beyond one's ability to think ?
In a way, we as humans are just following our program (our thoughts happens in our brains, which kinda represents our "programming") and we are conscious enough.
 
I don't see how acting outside of a programming would be necessary for, or conversely a proof of, consciousness. Why would being aware of one's existence would require to go beyond one's ability to think ?
In a way, we as humans are just following our program (our thoughts happens in our brains, which kinda represents our "programming") and we are conscious enough.
I don't equate human consciousness with computer programming. Irrationality is part of who we are. Computer programs don't seem to display that. I would say that the inert matter that makes up the parts of a computer have some level on consciousness just like the inert material that make up our brains do. This allows the atoms and molecules to function as they do. For me the question is whether or not a computer can or has gained some higher level of consciousness, beyond the basic functions of its material, such as we find in humans and many critters. Irrational and unexpected actions would be one test.
 
You can ask whether non-living matter has consciousness or awareness, sure. But I think you run into trouble rather quickly, when someone asks you to build your argument for that hypothesis. I reckon most scientists will dismiss it as a scientific hypothesis and refer you to the department of philosophy or metaphysics instead.

We have many automatic reflexes that just happen: blinking is one. How different is the "automatic" attraction or repulsion of atoms from many of the automatic functions of our bodies. They scale differently, in both there are similar forces at work.

Well, animals blink to lubricate the eyeballs or protect them, so blinking has a function.
Attraction and repulsion in the realm of subatomic particles is well understood; it's one of the four fundamental laws of nature responsible for the strong interaction. Two protons will repel each other, until they are brought extremely close; then the strong nuclear force becomes attractive instead of repulsive.
 
You can ask whether non-living matter has consciousness or awareness, sure. But I think you run into trouble rather quickly, when someone asks you to build your argument for that hypothesis. I reckon most scientists will dismiss it as a scientific hypothesis and refer you to the department of philosophy or metaphysics instead.



Well, animals blink to lubricate the eyeballs or protect them, so blinking has a function.
Attraction and repulsion in the realm of subatomic particles is well understood; it's one of the four fundamental laws of nature responsible for the strong interaction. Two protons will repel each other, until they are brought extremely close; then the strong nuclear force becomes attractive instead of repulsive.
No disagreements from me. I can only suggest that the perhaps the fundamental forces of the subatomic world are the foundation of consciousness upon everything is built. Such an assertion just makes consciousness an integral part of all things even if it is just a faint shadow of what evolution has moved it to over a few billion years.
 
Irrationality is part of who we are. Computer programs don't seem to display that.

AI displays irrationality quite often. Doesn't notice obvious logical flaws, forgets stuff, relies on flawed sources, makes mathematical mistakes, channels propaganda. In computers this is based on several things - flawed infrastructural programming, programmer's will, scarcity of memory chips, reliance on creativity, as opposed to rationality. Some AI vendors encourage you to move a slider from "rational", or "logical" to "creative". Helps with writing poems, not so much with cooking recipes. I don't see substantial difference between human irrationality and AI irrationality in this sense.

For me the question is whether or not a computer can or has gained some higher level of consciousness, beyond the basic functions of its material, such as we find in humans and many critters. Irrational and unexpected actions would be one test.

I'm not so sure it will be a reliable test. If you follow moves of a high level chess computer, most moves will seem unexpected to you. They are perfectly rational to a computer, however, because unlike us it can calculate 100 moves ahead using a neural network, which replicates the way human brain functions. I've seen chess grandmasters shake their heads in disbelief at the sight of unexpected, inexplicable, seemingly irrational AI moves. This isn't new. I don't think irrationality is useful for establishing "levels of consciousness", whatever that may be. On the contrary, superior rationality is the ultimate attribute of superior intelligence.

Now, whether my intelligence ties in with your consciousness is for you to decide!
 
Yes, it can all get very complicated. Thanks for your incites insights.
 
No disagreements from me. I can only suggest that the perhaps the fundamental forces of the subatomic world are the foundation of consciousness upon everything is built. Such an assertion just makes consciousness an integral part of all things even if it is just a faint shadow of what evolution has moved it to over a few billion years.

Well yeah, the four fundamental forces we know of, are the foundation for everything transpiring in our Universe since the Big Bang. With the little disclaimer that we have no idea what dark matter and dark energy are and we still haven't found the holy grail of theoretical physics; a quantum theory of gravity.

I feel fairly sure of one thing; consciousness is fundamentally quantum mechanical. Any deeper understanding of how consciousness is created and its true nature, is contingent on us acquiring a deeper and comprehensive understanding of quantum mechanics and how the Universe truly works. Right now, we don't even know the right questions to ask. :)
 
I feel fairly sure of one thing; consciousness is fundamentally quantum mechanical.
Are you aware of orchestrated objective reduction that postulates that consciousness comes from quantum effects within the subcellular component microtubules? I have never thought so much of it, I cannot see any reason to believe it happens there, but some clever people like the idea.
 
Are you aware of orchestrated objective reduction that postulates that consciousness comes from quantum effects within the subcellular component microtubules? I have never thought so much of it, I cannot see any reason to believe it happens there, but some clever people like the idea.
While much of that link (and its jargon) are a few steps beyond my understanding, it certainly seems like a step in the right direction! :D

If one assumes that consciousness has its roots in quantum action, then it is a very easy path to a spectrum of consciousness that spans inert matter as well as all living things.
 
Are you aware of orchestrated objective reduction that postulates that consciousness comes from quantum effects within the subcellular component microtubules? I have never thought so much of it, I cannot see any reason to believe it happens there, but some clever people like the idea.

That's above my comprehension skills, I'm afraid, by quite a margin. :lol:

What I will suggest though - via my background in computer science - is that our understanding of how quantum mechanics, intelligence, consciousness and the sort works, may increase dramatically as we build more and more advanced quantum computers and AI models. I'm not talking about the commercial opportunities (the main driver behind AI at the moment) or specific future applications, but about our brightest heads learning to think, design and theorize in ways they have never done before, pushed by technology that utilizes the most powerful tools in the universe. A quantum computer is basically a machine that is using the machine language the universe was created with. The ultimate cheat code. :lol:
 
Testing for "consciousness" moves it into the arena of science and out of the broader arena of our experience. Such moves are naturally a limitation and imply that what is true can only be found through "reason". I think that such testing can be useful to "point to" important things, but maybe not reveal all things.
you can test for "consciousness", the problem is first defining and accurately modeling it. the problem with "testing for it" right now is that we don't really know what we mean when we say the word. it's not the same as testing for magnetic force or how much friction there is. "consciousness" itself in everyday usage is a vague amalgamation of things as a concept, not a carefully defined model of reality.

this is probably where a lot of disagreements stem from it too, hidden disagreements over the actual definition.
If consciousness could somehow spring into existence caused by advanced computing power, or advanced algorithms, that moment would have happened decades ago.
the best computer scientists/programmers in the world don't know whether this is true and you don't either.
Why? Who says there must be a lower bound?
it's a bit trite but technically there must be. while we might use different definitions of consciousness, complete annihilation of something will remove consciousness if it has any physical presence in reality at all. thus i have reasonably high (but not perfect) confidence in a lower bound of "nothing" for a meaningful definition of consciousness. to go beyond this, you need to actually be on the same page for what you mean by "consciousness". there are ways you can define it that require x levels of complexity to happen, and that would create a lower bound (but only in context of that particular definition).
You can ask whether non-living matter has consciousness or awareness, sure. But I think you run into trouble rather quickly, when someone asks you to build your argument for that hypothesis. I reckon most scientists will dismiss it as a scientific hypothesis and refer you to the department of philosophy or metaphysics instead.
you're making metaphysical arguments right now. we have no knowledge of anything that fundamentally separates living tissue from machines in terms of capacity for consciousness, instead we have only observed life until we created machines ourselves. that doesn't tell us anything about how thinking works or define terms for us.

there are people who would say a computer program still isn't conscious even if given a human body and could perfectly act as a human being for a lifetime complete with its own agency/wants/needs. it just by definition can't be conscious anyway. these people are terrifying, because they have every bit as much evidence (aka none) to support conclusions that other people are not "conscious". they are, in a sense, treating the "some people are npc's" meme as real by using that logic. imo that goes from "unhelpful model of reality" to straight up dangerous.
I feel fairly sure of one thing; consciousness is fundamentally quantum mechanical.
probably true and also not a very useful distinction. we don't perceive quantum effects at macro levels. our eyes and brains can't handle the signals. however, best we can tell, *reality in general* is "fundamentally quantum mechanical", with the obvious caveat that our model for that is incomplete. but it's not like the tree outside has more or less quantum mechanical properties compared to a rock. quantum mechanics isn't mana, it's a model of reality (currently incomplete). anything within that reality is expected to be fundamentally quantum mechanical.
 
Because we don't protect things merely because they are conscious. In fact, our greatest dangers are generally perceived as other conscious beings, and that perception isn't a crazy threat-assessment.

But I think you're trying to loop in a concept of sacred. And while an artificial consciousness isn't likely to have much similarity to us, overall, you don't need uniformity to be a sacred thing.

This.
 
That's above my comprehension skills, I'm afraid, by quite a margin. :lol:

What I will suggest though - via my background in computer science - is that our understanding of how quantum mechanics, intelligence, consciousness and the sort works, may increase dramatically as we build more and more advanced quantum computers and AI models. I'm not talking about the commercial opportunities (the main driver behind AI at the moment) or specific future applications, but about our brightest heads learning to think, design and theorize in ways they have never done before, pushed by technology that utilizes the most powerful tools in the universe. A quantum computer is basically a machine that is using the machine language the universe was created with. The ultimate cheat code. :lol:

But do we really want this kind of research to succeed? Because then we'll have real life mind control and democracy will be dead.
 
Consciousness, of some degree and above (eg lowly animals like dogs etc) includes also having a built-in system of forcing declarations of what is positive, which is enforced by senses - like pain and pleasure. A machine would obviously need to artificially create that, without a need, and then also be sufficiently split from it so that it can't alter it casually.
The current "AI" we have (language models, art creators etc) are a very good example of something which calculates a wanted outcome from being trained; itself can't even have a notion of what it is presenting, but certainly can be adjusted to the point it will identify what is a negative of what the human input implied.
From a distance, what those AI are doing looks to me like a very intricate formal logic system where a good part of the axioms are hidden from the human observer, but they were meant - through the iteration of training - to present results that are picked up as meaningful.
 
the best computer scientists/programmers in the world don't know whether this is true and you don't either.

you're making metaphysical arguments right now. we have no knowledge of anything that fundamentally separates living tissue from machines in terms of capacity for consciousness, instead we have only observed life until we created machines ourselves. that doesn't tell us anything about how thinking works or define terms for us.

The best computer scientists will inform you that computers do not think at all. In real life. While quantum mechanics still holds secrets from us, computer science is transparent to us. We know exactly how computers work, otherwise we couldn't write algorithms that actually work as intended.

I respectfully disagree; what I'm saying is that if you want to argue that a non-living thing has consciousness, you have to construct an argument for it. Just stating that it is possible simply because no one has so far demonstrated that it isn't possible, doesn't cut it. That's not science. Science means proposing an idea or a theory and then testing it. If the theory doesn't pass the test or disagrees with experiment, then the theory is wrong.
 
The best computer scientists will inform you that computers do not think at all. In real life. While quantum mechanics still holds secrets from us, computer science is transparent to us. We know exactly how computers work, otherwise we couldn't write algorithms that actually work as intended.
Many machine learning algorithms come up with solutions in ways we cannot work out. Just like we know how a neuron works but we do not know how a brain work.
 
The best computer scientists will inform you that computers do not think at all. In real life. While quantum mechanics still holds secrets from us, computer science is transparent to us. We know exactly how computers work, otherwise we couldn't write algorithms that actually work as intended.

I respectfully disagree; what I'm saying is that if you want to argue that a non-living thing has consciousness, you have to construct an argument for it. Just stating that it is possible simply because no one has so far demonstrated that it isn't possible, doesn't cut it. That's not science. Science means proposing an idea or a theory and then testing it. If the theory doesn't pass the test or disagrees with experiment, then the theory is wrong.

IDK, these may be outdated assumptions about computing and the role of computer scientists.

Soon the computer scientists themselves may be replaced!
 
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