SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

LowtherCastle said:
Reaching the domination limit by growing your own population is only 38% effective. Besides, KK doesn't have many farms and is liable to build over them. I don't think we'll need to worry about the population factor (if we don't autoraze Rome), but if we do, it's better just to take out a Cyrus city. That's about 62% effective with autoraze.

The only other tech that might speed up our victory is RR. We either risk it and go to 0% science or beeline RR. 0% science upgrades a mace every few turns.
Click to expand...

There are enough farms on our continent to motivate bio. If we are close to the dom limit it will help quickly. Going after Cyrus could result in a delay. What is the earliest we could reach RR?
 
We need coal to actualy build the rails. There were no horses on our continent. Just something to keep in mind. (though I'm pretty sure it's somewhere, just a question of where)
 
I think railroad doesn't make sense. In the time we research it and build rails, we can have all troops necessary delivered. It would be interesting if KK had rails, but that's even longer then.
 
klarius said:
I think railroad doesn't make sense. In the time we research it and build rails, we can have all troops necessary delivered. It would be interesting if KK had rails, but that's even longer then.
Click to expand...

Yes I am thinking this too. Plus if we don't need to tech after steel, we can skip globe and use the slider.
 
FiveAces PPP - t142-152

Overview

KK capture Athens, Hamburg, and one of Bombay/Kyoto. Stretch goal is to take the other one. Raze Nottingham. Set up jesusin for opening of second front Research Steel (5 turns), shut off research.

Initial moves:

Trade PP to Liz for DoP Alex + gold. Do not forget this. Do not forget this.

Build Queue

Units: frigate-mace(CR2)-frigate-gren-cannon-mace(CR2)-cannon-gren-cannon

Note: We're not asking KK for any gold until all his cats are upgraded. Then we take whatever we need to upgrade our stuff.

Unit Moves

Hamburg: Gren attacks hill then choku (I'm not losing a unit at 70% when I have a 99% one). final attack by cat(s). Stack splits: 1 choku, 4 accuracy cats to Bombay, attack/pillage copper on the way. wash grens to guard cats, take out copper and other nice hammer tiles Remaining units to hamburg NW hill, redline next turn if needed (best choku first, then CR cats, give CRII if necessary to get 70%+ odds).

If avail a hamburg choku will promote to medic. After Hamburg falls, stack moves to kyoto, joins gren from Madrid (medic gren if no choku medic).

Kyoto: Bombard nearest to 0% before kk arrives, then redline. Same for Bombay

Madrid: 2 gren stay until kyoto threat passes. Frigate stays and intercepts galleon, retreats into Madrid to heal (yup, good placement LC :) ). 1 gren stays E of Madrid landing, other defends from Madrid.

NY: 1 Gren move to bombay, pillage gold and ph windmill. Other defends silver

Loose cats in wash territory: 1 move to Bombay. Other moves to nottingham to attack after cannon upgrade and become accuracy cannon

Murky units: 1st frigate scouts london, then "hides" SW SW, after DOW stations 1 SW and bombards. 1st CR2 mace upgrade to gren goes to iron and will attack with cat->cannon, 2nd frigate camps London 1N and bombards

Worker Actions

Workshops on the cottage tiles til 1 turn is left. Maybe a road if I see a good place and it's safe

City MM

Make sure have enough hpt for the unit. Otherwise prioritize food. Use slider if happy becomes a problem.

Diplo Actions

PP to Liz for gold + DoP Alex.
Close borders w JC.
DOW Liz in 4 turns
borrow kk's rice

Stop Criteria
Asoka is dead (not likely but I can hope)
Liz has a massive army/fleet in London
I want to DOW Wash
KK loses a city
We get DOW'd (though that's pretty unlikely with our power now)
We have a major happy problem and I want to build Globe
Replaceable Parts is available for trade

Others
Research: Steel(5t)-off, put KK on Replaceable parts (for lumbermills), then rifling

Civic change: None
Religion change: None
Cities settled: Maybe KK will find an empty island
 
Gnejs said:
There are enough farms on our continent to motivate bio. If we are close to the dom limit it will help quickly. Going after Cyrus could result in a delay. What is the earliest we could reach RR?
Click to expand...
I'm not advocating RR. We should win before that. I'm just anti-BIology.* Btw, I had my percentages wrong. Since we need only 38% and the rest need 62% its their population that is less effective. Nonetheless, our landmass has only three cities with significant amounts farms: Antium, Rome, and York. And we can't count on KK to keep those farms.

Right now the total world population is 443. >38% = pop169. If KK captures all cities, except Nottingham and loses 1 pop with each capture, we have pop181.

You don't even need to capture any Cyrus cities, just send a couple frigates to pillage his and Louis' seafood and they're pop will drop as fast as we want it to.

That's all I'm saying on the topic.

*Not super anti-biology. It's good idea, I just don't think it's going to come into play in this game. Just like RR probably won't. But if anything goes wrong, I think it's most likely to be slower conquest and then RR could come into play. When I got the 13xx victory with klarius' save, RRs were critical. And they sprang up all over the place almost as soon as it was reserached.
 
FiveAces said:
Workshops on the cottage tiles til 1 turn is left. Maybe a road if I see a good place, or maybe I'll farm kk's rice for him :crazyeye: we can do that now you know. Actually I should prob do this straight off with one of the workers. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I just noticed that KK has just finished re-farming his rice and re-camping his deer! :crazyeye:

This also means you can you could borrow KK's rice agian, if you want. The unhappiness in Sparta should vanish once KK captures Athens.

Also, if KK happens to put nets on another whale, you could get our deer back from Liz. Or maybe do it anyway.
 
yeah that's a good idea. the thought about farming the rice occurred to me after the save was closed so i just assumed he hadn't done it yet. good for him!

we'll get the rice now and deer back after steel (don't want to have to go to 20% if we lose one of the happy trades for some reason.
 
klarius said:
I think railroad doesn't make sense. In the time we research it and build rails, we can have all troops necessary delivered. It would be interesting if KK had rails, but that's even longer then.
Click to expand...
It's not about our troops getting there in time, only about KK's troops getting there faster. Especially in light of what we know about him making decisions based on be 1, 2 or 3 moves from a target.
 
FiveAces said:
FiveAces PPP - t142-152

Overview

Note: We're not asking KK for any gold until all his cats are upgraded. Then we take whatever we need to upgrade our stuff.
Click to expand...

I like the plan.

We can ask for as much gpt as we need. KK will simply lower the slider.
 
FiveAces said:
FiveAces PPP - t142-152

Overview

KK capture Athens, Hamburg, and one of Bombay/Kyoto. Stretch goal is to take the other one. Research Steel (5 turns), shut off research.

Initial moves:

Trade PP to Liz for DoP Alex + gold. Do not forget this. Do not forget this.
Close borders with JC (any reason to wait or not do this?)

Build Queue

Units: gren-gren-cat-cat(upgrade before leaving murky culture)-cannon-mace(CRII upgrade)-cannon-mace(CRII upgrade)-cannon

Note: We're not asking KK for any gold until all his cats are upgraded. Then we take whatever we need to upgrade our stuff.

Unit Moves

Hamburg: best odds choku attack Asoka hill. If survives, gren attack asoka hill, if dies, 2nd choku attack. final attack by cat(s). Stack splits: gren, 1 choku, 3 accuracy cats to Bombay, attack/pillage copper on the way. Remaining units to hamburg NW hill, redline next turn (best choku first, then CR cats, give CRII if necessary to get 70%+ odds).

Question: Will kk attack across the river if the odds are good enough? And what do I have to take the last defender down to to get those odds?

If avail a hamburg choku will promote to medic. After Hamburg falls, stack moves to kyoto, joins gren from Madrid (medic gren if no choku medic).

Kyoto: Bombard nearest to 0% before kk arrives, then redline.

Madrid: 2 gren stay until kyoto threat passes. Frigate stays and intercepts galleon, retreats into Madrid to heal (yup, good placement LC :) ). 1 gren stays on hill to prevent landing, other defends from Madrid.

NY: Grens move to bombay, pillage gold and ph windmill (split for these 2 turns only, should be ok on the hills)

Loose cats in wash territory: move to Bombay. Time to arrive and be guarded by either gren stack coming from Hamburg or grens down from NY.

Worker Actions

Workshops on the cottage tiles til 1 turn is left. Maybe a road if I see a good place, or maybe I'll farm kk's rice for him :crazyeye: we can do that now you know. Actually I should prob do this straight off with one of the workers. Thoughts?

City MM

Make sure have enough hpt for the unit. Otherwise prioritize food. Use slider if happy becomes a problem.

Diplo Actions

PP to Liz for gold + DoP Alex.
Close borders w JC.

Stop Criteria
Asoka is dead (not likely but I can hope)
I want to DOW Liz or Wash (which might happen depending on where kk moves his athens stack)
KK loses a city
We get DOW'd (though that's pretty unlikely with our power now)
We have a major happy problem and I want to build Globe

Others
Research: Steel(5t)-off, put KK on Replaceable parts (for lumbermills), then bio
Civic change: None
Religion change: None
Cities settled: Maybe KK will find an empty island
Click to expand...

Looking good! :goodjob: Some comments:

  • I don't think it is necessary to prep Hamburg. KK will most likely take it IBT since he has six healthy units that can attack on the western side in addition to the wounded Grenadier SE.
  • As we have better research modifiers than Kublai it is better if we keep our science slider as high as possible and Kublai provides the money for all our upgrades. I wouldn't turn off research completely, just reduce it so that we have enough happiness. But you should also be prepared to give happy resources to KK and compensate with the slider, especially if he runs into WW/happiness problems. That way KK can also grow his cities larger.
  • You will not be able to close borders with JC until T144. If he has already retreated his stacks by then there is no point in closing them...
  • Don't forget to upgrade the chokos at Hamburg to Grenadiers (and the cats to cannons later).
  • How about building a Frigate first thing? It makes the dow on Lizzie less of a gamble and you can use it meanwhile to have a look at London.
  • On research: I count about 40 farms in use on our continent. That is worth about 20 extra pop. The AI also seems fond of farming over cottages etc. :crazyeye: An alternative could be to beeline Rifling as this lets KK upgrade his longbows and pikes. Though (remainder of) Steel-Rep Parts-Rifling takes about 25 turns at our current rate. Steel+Biology will be ours in about 22 turns at the same rate. EDIT: Railroad doesn't come until after 50 turns at our current rate. This seems far too late...

When are you planning to play?
 
FiveAces, don't send more units than necessary to Asokaland. As soon as there are enough units to break Asoka and redline his cities it is time to start assembling units for a dow on Lizzie. We definitely want to hit her before she gets Rifling and upgrades all her longbows, maces, crossbows and pikemen to Redcoats. Not that I think we can't handle that but it will definitely take more of an effort.

If we think a bit further, then I guess that two Frigates is enough to deny her the use of all coastal tiles at London. That should slow down her research pretty much. If we also redline York and pillage around it and raze Nottingham we might break her too in no time.

In other words, as soon as we have two frigates, a couple of cats/cannons, and 5-6 Grenadiers to spare we would be ready to dow on her too.
 
Gnejs said:
[*]You will not be able to close borders with JC until T144. If he has already retreated his stacks by then there is no point in closing them...
Click to expand...

FiveAces: This JC stack that is W of the bananas is moving toward Athens, I'm pretty sure, so you can just encourage JC to go attack Athens till it falls and that help you keep JC from returning.
 
Gnejs said:
[*]I don't think it is necessary to prep Hamburg. KK will most likely take it IBT since he has six healthy units that can attack on the western side in addition to the wounded Grenadier SE.
Click to expand...
Let's hope so. Don't forget that KK has 4 freshly emptied galleons and can recall units from anywhere to fill them.

My basic view is that the fewer units KK has to suicide to capture cities, the more he has available to hurry on to the next target. In other words, the less we rely on KK to burn his stacks (like on Athens) the faster we finish. So there might be a paradox here: a slow deliberate methodical victory might be faster than DoWing all sorts of AIs and allowing KK to get ahead of us.
 
FiveAces said:
Question: Will kk attack across the river if the odds are good enough? And what do I have to take the last defender down to to get those odds?
Click to expand...
Sure. The 25% for river crossing don't do a lot in the light of the suicidal vanilla attack odds calcualation.
It's just the target city algorithm, which tries to get the troops into a location to not attack over the river, even using twice the moves.
 
Gnejs said:
FiveAces, don't send more units than necessary to Asokaland. As soon as there are enough units to break Asoka and redline his cities it is time to start assembling units for a dow on Lizzie. We definitely want to hit her before she gets Rifling and upgrades all her longbows, maces, crossbows and pikemen to Redcoats. Not that I think we can't handle that but it will definitely take more of an effort.

If we think a bit further, then I guess that two Frigates is enough to deny her the use of all coastal tiles at London. That should slow down her research pretty much. If we also redline York and pillage around it and raze Nottingham we might break her too in no time.

In other words, as soon as we have two frigates, a couple of cats/cannons, and 5-6 Grenadiers to spare we would be ready to dow on her too.
Click to expand...
Okay, I'll buy this. I can even see how this might be higher priority than W.

Btw, with those two frigates to the west, we really don't need to research Buildology. :lol:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Noble Zarkon
Civ IV Hall of Fame Update Discussion
Replies
3
Views
173
Noble Zarkon
Noble Zarkon
Gumbolt
[BTS] SGOTM 27 interest.
2 3 4
Replies
77
Views
11K
Gumbolt
Gumbolt
superslug
ANNOUNCEMENT: The Rules Stand
Replies
2
Views
149
superslug
superslug
DynamicSpirit
  • Sticky
[BTS] News: BOTM 271 - Babylon, Deity! Starts 5 April
Replies
3
Views
606
antimony
A
Nizef
  • Sticky
TSG 243 Announcement
2
Replies
23
Views
1K
cocls
C
Top Bottom