SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

LC, how many tiles can we not own and still get to the land domination?

I know ice doesn't count for land domination, but, do pics count?


I don't think we have a pop problem, although I won't feel sure until I see the first HOF message.



I am for settling the GA in Delhi. Depending on the previous questions, we need London and Wash at 10 culture and Rome out of resistance. NY's and Nott's culture doesn't matter.

Is the team ready to wait for Rome out of resistance?

jesusin said:

Do we know what lays in WashDC? Can't be a lot, according to the powergraph...

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5 turns ago WashDC had 13 units and a settler:

1@ CII musket
2@ CI musket
1@ CGIII lbm
1@ CGII lbm
3@ CGI lbm
3@ lbm
1@ CRI cat
1@ barrageIII cat

jesusin said:

LC, how many tiles can we not own and still get to the land domination?

I know ice doesn't count for land domination, but, do pics count?


I don't think we have a pop problem, although I won't feel sure until I see the first HOF message.



I am for settling the GA in Delhi. Depending on the previous questions, we need London and Wash at 10 culture and Rome out of resistance. NY's and Nott's culture doesn't matter.

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We can not own 9 tiles, according to my count. Mountain peaks (pics?) count.

I think we have a pop problem, but hopefully Biology alone will solve it. We definitely don't want to delay WashDC and starve York. klarius is absolutely right about that. Your plan should include red-lining WashDC in about 5-6 turns at most, whatever that takes, imo.

If you settle in Delhi and capture London and Washington very soon, Rome, NY, and Nottingham do not need to come out of resistance. This is another reason to capture WashDC asap.

Pre-Play-Plan T161-171 <<v2.1>>

OVERVIEW
Settle the GA in Delhi. Help KK capture London. Dow Wash. Redline Wash and NY. If there is time left, send units towards Rome. <<Set up a cruise agency, cheap travels from Murky to London and back again.>>

BUILD QUEUE
<<Galleon x1. Cannon x9.>>

UNIT MOVES
GA runs to settle in Delhi.
Workers: <<both go to>> Athens Corn, to connect it and then to Sparta grass.
Frigates: bombard London while keeping at a distance. Then do the same to Nott (unless we FC Eli to help KK from getting confused <<as long as it doesn't interfere with our galleon>>). The East one loses time doing nothing <<but witness the war there>>.

<<
London units: 3healthy in England to London. 2 healthy S kill both lb and continue to London or WashDC depending on KK's progress in London.

York: 4 neighbouring wounded units , 3 units around Cuzco, wounded unit in England, cannon in silver, 2 healthy Grens from Hamburg all heal and go to WashDC.

Murky: cannon there to furs, as the new ones will, less wounded Gren from York to heal in marble, 1 healthy Gren from Hamburg to get teleported.
Grog the traitor will became Mongol in London. Maybe a wounded unit there too.

Bombay: medic and 4 wounded units first heal for 1 turn thenfrom Hamburg healing there, then to WashDC. OR SHOULD THEY HEAL IN HAMBURG AND GO WASHDC FROM THE WEST?

After WashDC is taken, consider sending some 3 units to Antum and dowing JC. Consider redlining Nott for Grog the traitor and send the other Warrior to a cruise too.
>>

CITY MM
As is.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
DoW Wash around T164.
Steal little gold from KK till we get Biology.
Suggest KK to attack Wash after the dow.
Keep an eye on Wash, Eli and JC techs.
<<Look for an opportunity to trade for RP.>>

STOP CRITERIA
Saladin declares on anyone.
KK puts all his units into Galleons again.
KK has lost a city.
Murky is in danger.

OTHERS
Research - Biology.
Then we use 0%, KK researchs Reem Parts.
Religion/Civics change - none
Monitor KK unit movement

Please, have no mercy with my PPP. I don't feel confident this turnset. There are units I'll have to move! And they'll probably have to fight, too!

So many units moving N...

I still think it worth it to invest 1 turn in a galleon to get some of KK's units into Murky. Not necessarily our warriors upgraded in London. One could also load some grens and/or cannons, gift them while loaded and transport them back to Murky. Otherwise Nottingham will still stay for a long time.
And KK will not move out of English culture until everything is pillaged in Nottingham's culture south of the water.
The alternative to CF Liz is also not that attractive (but better than just let KK pillage for no gain).

For techs, I would consider to trade for RP if it becomes available and research rifling then.
We hope we win before, but you never know ...

I don't have much to add since I probably can't access any save until Sunday eve. But no dow on JC for 10t? Why not station a gren or two in Antium plus one cannon to slow the roman attack stack? We can dow much sooner and 1) empty Rome of excess units and 2) get KK's excess units rolling towards Rome.

jesusin said:

Pre-Play-Plan T161-171 v1.0

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BUILD QUEUE
Cannon x10. I agree with klarius. If you're going to shoot your wad on Washington, then you already have plenty of units. I would immediately build the galleon, otherwise it comes back too late, and send 1-2 warriors with it. (Why not?) Just don't put the galleon back into Murky until the turn you red-line Nottingham or New York, whichever one you choose. Then put two cannons in it and do the same for the other city.

UNIT MOVES
Workers: 1 goes to Madrid, to farm grass. 1 goes to Athens Corn, to connect it and then to Sparta grass (maybe the other way around, since I will ignore the 2 Eli's lb in the open).

You only have 20 wkr-turns, so you can make about 3 farms. Any Madrid farm is pointless--no granary. In fact, KK only has four granaries and Kyoto's is empty and Besh's is useless. That leaves Antium and Athens. Antium is already farmed up. That leaves Athens. Athens is perfect. The corn farm gives Antium drastically needed +2 and three farms at Athens gives you +1 pop/turn after Biology. That's it.

Units in England help out in London, except the wounded Gren, who heals in York. Gren+Cannon S go to London too just in case. 3Can heal in York, then attack WashDC. The 3 units around Cuzco go to York to heal too. The 2 wounded Gre go heal in our borders, in the marble. The cannon is the silver waits in York. The cannon in Murky and the next 2 built wait in the furs. All the wounded units in Hamburg and the medic run to Bombay to heal there, then attack. The 3 healthy Grens in Hamburg run home and get teleported to our borders if dow happens in 3 turns.

Looks good to me. Just a few points. I think you need more units for WashDC, less for NY. The CRII gren S of York should heal in York. He won't be healthy in time if he goes home. I would send the three healthy CII/III grens in Hamburg to York. You want most of your attack units attacking from the west (no river to cross). The silver cannon going to York: consider upgrading him to Medic if you need to, to get your units healthy in time. He'll still be one bad mofo.

If you're planning to CF Liz after London falls, think about whether you want your units on London E so they teleport toward Murky (I guess) or London SE where they'll have free movement, although KK will probably pillage that road.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Try to keep Cyrus, Hatty, and Louis from being at war with Mansa. (Bribe them out if they DoW.)

LowtherCastle said:

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Try to keep Cyrus, Hatty, and Louis from being at war with Mansa. (Bribe them out if they DoW.)

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Cyrus and Hatty will not Dow (attitude). Louis is no real problem.

Keeping an eye on trading for RP --> Ok

Sending 2/3 units to Antium and setting JC loose --> Will do after WashDC is taken.

Galleon --> Galleon would be for Nott, not for NY. NY will be taken by KK from S. Waiting for a KK unit to get to Nott while we pillage every S English tile would be painful, so I am considering building 3cannons, Galleon, then 6cannons. I don't want to leave Murky empty, so I will probably load some wounded unit halfway. Is that ok for you, klarius? Or would it be too late? I want 3 cannons in the furs. I fear less could die to Wash's initial assault.

Only 1 wounded Gre home --> ok

3 healthy Gre to York --> No, I want them protecting home from pillaging.

Both Workers W --> Ok, but they won't be together, too close to England borders!

Bribing for peace --> Can I even do it when they have just dowed? They won't talk one another for several turns.

jesusin said:

Bribing for peace --> Can I even do it when they have just dowed? They won't talk one another for several turns.

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Yes, in fact you can bribe an AI to DoP and then DOW the same AI on the same turn The only exception is the option might be redded out with the message "fine with us but you have to ask them" I don't know what triggers that, but then you just bribe the other AI to DoP.

jesusin said:

Why?

My initial feeling is this: Rome is furthest, Rome first.

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That was my feeling as well. There are several reasons for sending everything we have against Washington:

• A quick attack and capture of Washington limits the damage GW can do against us and KK
• The more units we have next to GW, the less damage he can do against us and KK
• The earlier we capture Washington, the earlier York and Bombay starts to grow.
• GW is a much tougher opponent than JC, and should be treated with overwhelming military assault
• Most important though is the cultural expansion.

I can't really put this in words, but I have this nagging feeling that my preparation for war against JC in my turn set was not aligned with the dot map. If we capture GW-lands first, does Rome need to come out of revolt? I will have to take a closer look at the dot map...

jesusin said:

Galleon --> Galleon would be for Nott, not for NY. NY will be taken by KK from S. Waiting for a KK unit to get to Nott while we pillage every S English tile would be painful, so I am considering building 3cannons, Galleon, then 6cannons. I don't want to leave Murky empty, so I will probably load some wounded unit halfway. Is that ok for you, klarius? Or would it be too late? I want 3 cannons in the furs. I fear less could die to Wash's initial assault.

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Unit placement:
If you have 3 cannons protecting furs, do you also have 3 units protecting marble and 3 on deer? All three are the same, aren't they? EDIT: Okay, the units on the furs are adjacent to W's tiles, so the attack unit final threshold is lower. (To me, the furs are our least valuable resource tile at this point.)

But this is all really confusing anyway. Right now we have 12 cannons and 12 grens. After London, how many of each will you have at York, Bombay, MurkyLand and Delhi? (including the London units going to York or teleporting to MurkyLand)

Delhi
Let's talk about Delhi. Washington could easily send all his attackers from New York and/or Washington there and it's currently guarded by a half-damaged gren (and what appears to be a lbm on the way, if it isn't going to Bombay.) klarius can maybe help us understand if Washington is more likely to send his units from NY at Murky or at Delhi.

The Galleon
KK pillaging Liz tiles is a mini-wart beind your ear that you relieve by CFing Liz. jesusin, I'll tell you what real pain is. Real pain is the stomach cancer of waiting for KK to capture your red-lined cities. I wouldn't trust KK to capture New York without your help. If you make the galleon now, KK could capture NY as early as T165 or T166. Think about it.

Erkon said:

I can't really put this in words, but I have this nagging feeling that my preparation for war against JC in my turn set was not aligned with the dot map. If we capture GW-lands first, does Rome need to come out of revolt? I will have to take a closer look at the dot map...

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No, in that case Rome will not have to come out of revolt. That is maybe the best reason to capture Washington asap. But your positioning of units units in Hamburg was the fastest victory, imo. Instead, we may (or may not) slow things down as many as 3 turns by preventing a worst-case scenario of W launching a massive assault on Delhi or Murky.

I'm completely okay jesusin's decision, because why tempt fate?

Better build that Galleon to get klarius to shut up...

FiveAces said:

Yes, in fact you can bribe an AI to DoP and then DOW the same AI on the same turn The only exception is the option might be redded out with the message "fine with us but you have to ask them" I don't know what triggers that, but then you just bribe the other AI to DoP.

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FiveAces, perhaps you refer to another trigger, so excuse me if I state something trivial: the "fine with us..." message is presented since the IA in question cannot make peace because the opponent will not accept it from the AI.

klarius, do you know the mechanics of early DoW? What enables the die roll to start a war? How is it related to the power ratio? Is it related to relations? Distance between cities? etc...

The most attractive cities for GW are Bombay and York because he has a lot of plot culture in them and they are so near. Murky and Delhi will not be target city. But pillagers may come. These might attack Delhi then.
From Washington DC it's unlikely that any troops can pass by Bombay on the way to Delhi.

Btw, guys, looking at the SG7 score graphs, because of OCC, I have a feeling that fastest finish might also get lowest score...without even doing the SG5 klarius expunge!