SGOTM 09 - Misfits

Got side tracked so still up. I'm quite pleased its Joao. Generally speaking he is ok to get along with. Much better than Monte/Ottomans. With him around we would have to be careful of being attacked. With Joao's fav civic HR which we will be running some time I assume and send our expected conf missionary to him we should be able to get him to friendly very easy. Actually same goes for Ham as well. Friendly civs means trade monopoly techs.

Grrrr.

Oh well...those southern sites are lost to the spammer.

No religion yet, though. We should consider using the free Confu missionary (assuming we found the religion) to convert one of Hammi or Joao.

Joao can be a decent trading partner -- he has a high WFYABTA threshold of 15 and decent "known" threshold (40%). Hammurabi has a WFYABTA threshold of 10, and also 40% known threshold.

Do they know each other? If they do, then each should be willing to trade techs which both of them know but we are lacking. This could be affected by them knowing other civs we have not met yet, though.

Good point about Joao and his favorite civic of HR, Sleepless. He can be a decent neighbor, he just tends to grab every scrap of available land.

Hammi's fave civic is Bureaucracy, which could also help bring him to friendly. But I worry that Hammi has nowhere else to expand, which may make him come after us even if relations are decent.

Well, we will just have to REX fast.
Next few turnsets should be spamtastic

Reporting!

Before hitting the :

- Opened borders with Hammy. Found one bowman in Dur-Kur.
- Headed the warrior out of LM

42:

- Found JoJo. But it seems he has some issues. More on that later.
- Whip the library in LM
- Forgot to put research to 50%

43:

- Library finished in LM. Phalanx in 3 turns.
- LM will grow in 1 turn.
- Turn research to 0%

44:

- Run 2 scientists in LM (GS in 6 turns)
- Alpha in 5 turns @ 100% (-2 gpt)
- And some good news! No watermill right now...



45:

- Hello Barbie:



- Stonehenge is built far away.
- I come upon Joao... settling to the south. More good news. Sadly, it's the end that land. He settles the next turn (46).



- Hammy's capitol:



47:

- Phalanx done. Start another in LM

48:

- Settler Done. Head him to the hill with a TWO warrior escort. There was a bear out there, too. So, when we sort out where the next city goes, he's ready!

Other stuff:

All the roads are done. I started a couple forest reserves.

The GS is done in 2 turns. A GP would be done in 9 turns in JH, but that'll go up. Timing might be right to build the shrine!

Joao Land... Check out the barb archer! Pretty buff. They may be hindering his expansion program!



Hammy out west:



The save is uploaded! If we decide on a #3 city site, I can play through to the academy. I started a zeppelin in JH. It's 4 turns. If someone else takes the save, they can change it. I'm thinking it's a wise investment.

MF


Autolog:

By the way, I really am in favor of the zeppelin now. Yes, we need to REX... But I didn't see a settler over with Hammy. But we'd know for sure with the zep. It can also locate barbs, so we can send out unescorted settlers. We can see... and attack barb cities. And as an added bonus, we just might meet more AI and circumvent the globe!

I think if we don't use the tech advantage of this game, we won't do as well.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

Reporting!

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Nice work, Mastiff!

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

- Forgot to put research to 50%

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Very minor.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

- And some good news! No watermill right now...

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And here I was talking about low probabilities.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

45:

- Hello Barbie:

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OK. One warrior we should be able to deal with, fortunately.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

- Stonehenge is built far away.

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Wonder who? Could even be the barbs.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

- Hammy's capitol:

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Hmmm. Sheep and cows that we can see, plenty of forest. He will have something else. We need to keep exploring, and check out his city to the north.

Unfortunately, Hammi does not have anywhere else to go except through us. We need to REX, a total 100% effort.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

- Settler Done. Head him to the hill with a TWO warrior escort. There was a bear out there, too. So, when we sort out where the next city goes, he's ready!

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It sounds like the marked tile, the wheat/northern cows/uranium/wine site, is the favorite.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

The GS is done in 2 turns. A GP would be done in 9 turns in JH, but that'll go up. Timing might be right to build the shrine!

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Excellent - more beakers! We will have to see about running a scientist or two in JH to see if we can get another GS and not a GP, although a GP would not be a bad thing overall.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

Joao Land... Check out the barb archer! Pretty buff. They may be hindering his expansion program!

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Ouch! That is VERY ugly! Hills 3, Medic, and March!?!?!?! Five promo barb units?!?!?!

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

The save is uploaded! If we decide on a #3 city site, I can play through to the academy. I started a zeppelin in JH. It's 4 turns. If someone else takes the save, they can change it. I'm thinking it's a wise investment.

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I strongly disagree on the zeppelin. Phalanx, followed by another phalanx. Then we can think about another settler, and maybe a zeppelin after that.

We must have strong defenders ASAP -- we are at T48 and barb axes (possibly with multiple promotions!) could start appearing within just a few turns. We need military to defend our core cities, and will want at least 1 phalanx plus a warrior (and maybe more) in our new city.

Also, we need to micro our cities:

JH should be working the watermill rather than a grass forest preserve - +1 hammer and +1 commerce.

LM should be working the corn to grow -- it has room under the happy cap, so let's get it up to size. We lose a hammer on the phalanx, but JH is going to turn out a couple real quick. And with the corn we can grow and be working that forest preserve again in just three turns.

I would hold the second warrior in the settler stack where he is. The barb should move onto the hill 1W. Then next turn advance the whole stack SW. The barb can try to attack if it wants against 2 warriors, or head towards our cities. The phalanx (who should have been moving south already, get him moving this turn!) will finish him off if he tries that.

The settler can move and found the following turn, with the warriors moving into the city to guard it.

Also, the workers in those forest tiles should road first (change the orders of the one already working), then preserve. They may have to run from barbs and need the mobility, and it will help our defending phalanxes to respond to attacks as well.

Edit:

Demos are interesting -- we are way ahead in GNP, twice any of our opponents. We are also dead last in power, significantly weaker than anyone else. Some more phalanx will help there, as we desperately need them anyway.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

Check out the barb archer!

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That's just nasty. At least its in Joao'a land.

I still can't open the save, so that means Sleepless is UP

marowaker, I will move you to following JH, to see if that works as it sometimes has in the past.

And Mastiff is still up -- he has only played 7 turns, and I think continuing to settle the new city and get the academy built will be about right (3-4 more turns) to round out the set.

Sleepless is on deck, and will very soon be up. But not quite yet.

That barb archer near Joao's capital is disturbing.

The barb warrior near our settler is a typical spawned barb - zero promotions. The archer however has 5 (!!) promotions. From the damage it has taken, we know it has won at least one battle, and possible more -- with medic and march it will heal pretty rapidly even while moving. But we can assume that it was built by a barb city, and not spawned. There has not been time since archers could begin spawning for it win the battles needed to gain 5 promotions.

The wonders screen does not show the Pentagon -- I had been thinking Gyathaar might have dropped it into a barb city somewhere. But it looks like the barb cities have enough buildings/instructors to turn out units with at least 2, and more probably 3 promotions. Ships will also have drydocks for at least 3 promos and maybe 4. Once barb horse archers become possible, expect to see stable-built HAs with 3 or 4 promotions.

We are going to need several more phalanx, as quickly as we can build them, to guard our cities and improvements, and to escort future settlers. It is quite possible we will be trading units with the barbs, and the ratio could very easily be worse than 1:1 for us.

After we build a few more phalanx, then we should build a zeppelin and start checking out what we are facing in that barb city. We may not be able to see much -- instructors are not visible. But actual structures can be detected, along with units and tile improvements (if any).

We are also probably going to need to build barracks in JH sometime soon. For random spawned zero-promo barbs, unpromoted units will be enough. But if some of those city produced uber-barbs show up, we are going to want some tougher units of our own.

haphazard1 said:

I strongly disagree on the zeppelin. Phalanx, followed by another phalanx. Then we can think about another settler, and maybe a zeppelin after that.

We must have strong defenders ASAP -- we are at T48 and barb axes (possibly with multiple promotions!) could start appearing within just a few turns. We need military to defend our core cities, and will want at least 1 phalanx plus a warrior (and maybe more) in our new city.

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But we aren't seeing it. I saw a bear a couple turns ago.... Joao just sent an archer north from his lands, and it made it. If it's that much of a concern, put in a turn or two, and use the whip we've saved over the last turns. Or... Use the whips if the enemy does show up.

If we hold out to macemen... we're golden!

haphazard1 said:

And Mastiff is still up -- he has only played 7 turns, and I think continuing to settle the new city and get the academy built will be about right (3-4 more turns) to round out the set.

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Well, not before we sort out the map. I want consensus on where the city goes. Building the academy in JH is easy enough. But I'm out of builds there. I know what I want, but we need to know from the team.

Not tonight, though! I have a fine single malt, and don't play team games when I drink! It'd be in the morning...

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

But we aren't seeing it. I saw a bear a couple turns ago.... Joao just sent an archer north from his lands, and it made it.

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When I ran several test games into the AD years, the tougher barbs all started showing up at once, between T50 and T55. We are on T48. So archers and scouts have been able to move around and survive...so far. That is very shortly going to end, and barb axes are very likely to be appearing within the next 8 turns.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

If it's that much of a concern, put in a turn or two, and use the whip we've saved over the last turns. Or... Use the whips if the enemy does show up.

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We do not want to have to use emergency whips, disrupting our cities and planned builds. Much better to build some units now, have them when we need them, and not let our cities get threatened.

If nothing shows up, we can then push our units further out and fogbust all the nearby terrain. Then we really won't have to worry. This is one of the few advantages of Hammi's position -- pretty soon all the land near us will be settled, and only barbs built by cities will need to be worried about.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

If we hold out to macemen... we're golden!

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Macemen will definitely help. But we are not going to reach CS without being attacked by axes. CS is at least 20 turns away, maybe more like 25 depending on how much our new city costs us. We will face attacks before then.

Also, we do not want to just be holding out. We need to keep expanding, which means enough phalanx to escort settlers and fogbust, plus garrisons for our cities, plus a couple roaming barb-killers. We need several phalanx right away (I would say three more), then more at intervals as we build more settlers and need escorts/fogbusters.

I agree with Mastiff. I am not that worried, now. Given we can come out of the Zep and whip a Phalanx in desperation I think its more critical to figure out the barb city and understand what we are up against.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

Well, not before we sort out the map. I want consensus on where the city goes. Building the academy in JH is easy enough. But I'm out of builds there. I know what I want, but we need to know from the team.

Not tonight, though! I have a fine single malt, and don't play team games when I drink! It'd be in the morning...

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It is your turnset, Mastiff, so you can continue, or wait for input from the team, or decide to call it a set and hand it off. Whatever fits your time available -- I ended my last set after only 8 turns or so, since the next logical break point was another 10 turns and I had several meetings the next day.

My vote is for the marked city site (wheat/cow/uranium/wine), and for phalanx (2 more) in JH. We will probably need to wait for tomorrow to get input from the team members in European time zones. But there is no huge rush -- we are playing quickly so far and these are important decisions.

Good work so far, and enjoy your single malt.

I too vote for the WCUW site. 1 more phalanx.

x team progressing smoothly in score. We have leveled off. Definitely a top start. We're way ahead in culture, and were close to top in power and on our way to being top

Some random thought first. Its pretty certain the barb galleys are carrying units because there is know way that archer spawned. One of Joao's archers has CG2 so it has a few promotions and must have killed the other archer. This means less units to be unloaded on us. If you look at Hammies power score he has just lost something so perhaps he is being attacked as well. Good call on the ice flows KaleLambiek . That is exactly why they've been put there. Looking at Joao's land there is desert to the North and land to the West so hopefully he will go that way after he has cleared his lands of barbs?

Mastiff all you need to do now is find us some good trades for alpha. Some minor points. We should have at least 1 worker building roads to our new lands. I'm not sure the forest (at least its 13 free hammers )is that great we need to put the next watermill there (so remember everbody watermill to the South of JH before any others). That is more for me than anybody else.

Builds there are only 3 things we need to build at the moment which are phalanxes/workers/settlers. At this stage a zep is to expensive and I'd much rather have a couple of phalanxes instead. My favoured idea is more phalanxes to fogbust/city defenders then the settlers/ workers. That way we can run the settlers to the new city sites without waiting for their escorts. Swapping tiles between JH and LM is essential at the moment. The 2 corn should be worked all the time regardless of who has control of them.

Regarding the city sites. I still like CWUW next. It will save us a settler plus the marble is in our lands next turn. JH border expansion will help with fogbusting as well. Fourth city I would still like on the Western coast. I'm a bit more worried about defenders but not to much. If the worse comes to the worse and we lose it were not far off CS and with no city razing will get it back quickly. We won't have been able to improve it much anyway.

Regarding the barb galley movement. I believe they do operate under some movement rules (not sure if it applies to uber barbs ). Anyone have any idea of what these are?

Finally how do you upload the game logs? Is it done by using the manage attachments as I've uploaded plenty of game saves but never added a turn log to a post.

OK Myself following my own advise... Reading back I see I skipped some stuff too...

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

And... Do ya'll just hit control-A on every turn?

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No I dont, but sometimes it is really usefull....

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

And... Do ya'll just hit control-A on every turn?

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No I dont, but sometimes it is really usefull....

Sleepless said:

I do think to much war in this game will hinder us more than help us.

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5 turns of anarchy surely is worse on quick than on Marathon... Then again, Paratroopers vs Archers/LBs/XBows is fun stuff
Hammi is so close how can we resist

Sleepless said:

2. I've also been very keen on fish/clam on the West coast and if we build it I think Moai should go here.

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Dont know about Moaui, maybe we stick that in the barb city?

Sleepless said:

4. Then the cow/rice site further South. Either 2E of the cow or 2W of the rice. A lot depends on the land in the fog/irrigating the rice. I would mostly cottage this site.

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Sleepless said:

Then there is the island to settle but we need sailing/galley before that can be done so not essential.

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I think the Island is UTMOST important and sailing a priority after CS +1 commerce in every excisting city + a bunch of hills out there.... = big payoff IMHO.

HapHazard said:

Or work 1 scientist at 3, then 2 at 4. Speeding up the academy even a turn is worthwhile.

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I think the one scientist will cause Copperfish to not grow in 1 but 2 turns. Thus 2 turns 1 scientists vs 2 scientist 1 turn... doesnt change.

haphazard1 said:

Good points about the windmill on the copper hill...OK, moving 1S would add 1 hammer to the fully developed city. Still loses 2 commerce/turn, and the coast.

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Is coast that important to this city? For big traderoutes you need a huge city, this one is never going to go past 10 or so...

Sleepless said:

2S loses a forest, but might grow a couple more if we get lucky. Same +1 hammer, -2 commerce, lost coast.

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Actually +1 hammer on the windmilled copper hill AND +1 hammer -2 commerce working the Marble instead of a mill which then might grow a forest again. So overall +2 hammer -2 commerce.

The 3 tiles down south dont have a big chance to have a forest growing, due to lack of surrounding forrest. The -1 forest we can take the chance I think...

HapHazard said:

You don't want to whip one pop for the library and earlier settler, but now a 2 pop whip for a worker? We need at least three settlers ASAP, with escorts and a worker or three.

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Well sitting at the happy cap is generaly not a good idea. The difference is a 1 pop whip with near no gain/overflow and a well timed full food bar 2 pop whip with a lot of overflow (atleast some 19 + 15 = 34 hammers overflow). Offcourse if we need to regrow... a few turns no settlers/workers.

Dont know for sure if building Settler > worker > settler > Worker is a good idea... We need some military and some Zeppelin as well

HapHazard said:

I am not sure we will ever switch out of Enviro -- what would be more useful? Workshops under State Property maybe. But a +1F, +1H, +4C improvement is pretty sweet.

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It is sweet but I am a Cottage player myself, unless we turn 2 windmills (2 food) into a scientist.... Commerce wize at some point a Town is going to outplay a Windmill.
Commerce wize with PP, a Village is equal. That is just 6 + 12 = 18 turns to grow... After that, commerce wize it is equal or -1food +3commerce for having Towns.

If we have the happyness to run pop 26 and 6 specialists that is better. But if we are 'stuck' at pop 18 working cottages will prove to be better I think.

HapHazard said:

I do not see us switching out of Enviro at all, and certainly not until Democracy and Emancipation (to cut the painful growing time) at the very earliest. If we bother with Democracy at all, as we race for space.

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At the very least we need Emancipation to aid in speeding the cottages along. Needing only 9 turns to grow to "equal" instead of 18. Also US for the hammer.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:

I can send the Lake Mastiff warrior south to meet up with the settler if we whip and go as fast as we can...

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Count the turns though, in 4 turns he can barely make it to the Tundra hill.

HapHazard said:

I am worried that we may not be able to get the techs we need sooner. But knowing two AIs, I guess we take the risk on Alpha and hope.

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I think it is likely we will get Pottery and AH on turn 1 of Alpha, Sailing/IW doubtfull.
Math, highly doubtfull.

HapHazard said:

The fish can only be picked up from one tile, so we would have to move inland at least 3 tiles from that.

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I am not to keen on that fish. Bear town is good I think where it sits. Any fish town down there will only work the fish. Offcourse 2 scientists and some more coast.
Possibly we get a GS from this city long term, not sure the 8-10 commerce from this city +7.5 beakers/turn from the two scientists is worth it...

Mastiff said:

Wish me luck!

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Go for it, good luck (though probably after the fact)

HapHazard said:

Moving south gains us very, very little: a hammer/turn, and maybe one extra forest later in the game.

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1 extra forest is 1 extra specialist with National park and National Epic.
+ 9 GPP is considerable as well as the extra beakers/other stuff.

Mastiff said:

- Forgot to put research to 50%

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Not a biggy, a few beakers lost, but not a biggy.

Mastiff said:

Alpha in 5 turns @ 100% (-2 gpt)

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That must be the overflow of half a turn at work... Getting Alpha 1 turn earlier

Mastiff said:

- And some good news! No watermill right now...

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An extra forest to chop

I think Emmet should finish his preserve (5 turns from now) then move 1 SE Watermill, 1 E Watermill, 1 S Watermill

Mastiff said:

45:

- Hello Barbie:

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I am glad we didnt send out the settler unescorted... Would have been Barb food

Mastiff said:

Joao Land... Check out the barb archer! Pretty buff. They may be hindering his expansion program!

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Yep pretty much like expected thought... Once we settle Bear town, we will get them and free-up Joao from these pests.

Mastiff said:

The save is uploaded!

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Good a clean save....

Comments
- Lake Mastiff
Why is it not working the corn??
Why is the Phalanx on MP there??

Wait let me read other comments first...

HapHazard said:

That is VERY ugly! Hills 3, Medic, and March!?!?!?!

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Could have started out with just 4? like the Galleys?
And defeated a few of Joao's archers??

HapHazard said:

I strongly disagree on the zeppelin. Phalanx, followed by another phalanx.

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Hmz, 2 Phalanx or 1 Zeppelin? I think I agree we need atleast 1 Phalanx

HapHazard said:

JH should be working the watermill rather than a grass forest preserve - +1 hammer and +1 commerce.

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How about swapping the Plains preserve for +1 food +1 commerce instead? Lets see how things work out...
at 12 hammers/turn JH will have nice exact benift from Police State.
at 15 hammers per turn, 30 - 23 = 7 = 5 base overflow
12 + 5 = 17 * 125% = 21 (leaving 2 to finish phalanx #2 on turn 4)

At +6 food JH will grow to 5/23 11/23 17/23 23/23 to pop 9 (1 unhappy)

With 13 base we produce
16 hammers per turn = 32 - 23 = 9 => 7
12 + 7 = 19 * 125% = 23 Phalanx done on turn 3

With 3 phalanx total beeing enough for the moment I think, we can put in 1 turn (15 hammers and MM for the Extra food here! ) to the Zeppelin (turn 4)

At +5 food JH will grow 4/23 9/23 14/23 (+6 food here!) 20/23 (nicely at the end of the food bar)
Then start a worker (insert 19 hammers) and whip it for 2, using the overflow 19 + 17 = 36 * 125% = 45 (60 total) to finish the Zeppelin (53 needed) next turn. Why should then regrow into our happy cap building a Barracks/Airport or hopefully a Granary.

We want the 2 Phalanx I think as well as the zeppelin (check out barb city and the Island). We also NEED the worker BAD! IMHO

HapHazard said:

The phalanx (who should have been moving south already, get him moving this turn!) will finish him off if he tries that.

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I agree, get the Phalanx moving NOW and the settler too

HapHazard said:

Also, the workers in those forest tiles should road first (change the orders of the one already working), then preserve.

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I disagree... Roads should be kept IMHO to a bare minimum... In 3 turns well before any barbs can make serious problems we have 2 more Phalanx. Let the workers do their preserving.

Except for Namlaim, he needs to road that tile (the road goes towards the National park city) then move 2 south (1 SE, 1 SW actually on the roads) to road towards the Uranium.
Have him spend (barbs permitting) 1 turn roading on each tile (grass/Uranium/1 sw of Uranium) then run to Wheat/Cows (again barbs permitting) to start improving that.
So with the two movement of the worker we use one move to actually move and one move to part-build the road. In effect saving some worker turns.

The new worker from JH, should be completing the roading, hopefully allowing the new city to complete a warrior for the next city MP. I havent counted the exact turns though the city should be able to build a warior inside 5 turns at 2 hammers/turn.

HapHazard said:

But if some of those city produced uber-barbs show up, we are going to want some tougher units of our own.

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I am not to worried about them archers, Hill 3 Medic March is not the strongest on offence or even defence on a flat land tile

Forget about taking that baby out when on a hill though and it has a 50% withdrawal chance too. Possibly it has been serial attacking Joao's capitol and getting the role to keep alive...

Check out Joao's archers, CG2 already. Likely these archers were build before barracks... so that is 5 xp allready... possibly more.

Mastiff said:

If we hold out to macemen... we're golden!

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Macemen are some 15-ish or more turns away though, we need some basic defence as well as future MP anyway.

Also a Phalanx is no more than a 1 pop whip, I dont like 1 pop whips at all... It goes against anything that says "good whipping practice"

And what is with this "golden" stuff? All the US people at work are on that as well... must be some kind of hipp thing to say?

Mastiff said:

I want consensus on where the city goes.

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I think moving the copperhill south and B-Red (cowheatium), the "City?" mark is the spot.

HapHazard said:

We need several phalanx right away (I would say three more), then more at intervals as we build more settlers and need escorts/fogbusters.

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Which works nicely if you count the one beeing build in Lake Mastiff with my above Phalanx>Phalanx>Zeppelin (1 turn) > Worker (1 turn + whip) > Zeppelin 'plan'

It might have been nice to be one turn further along, having alpha and seeing the options available in trade. Atleast Joao and Hammi have met, so some trades will be available. If I have a choice in the matter trade with Joao, getting him friendly is going to be more important than Hammi, Hammi is "soon" dead anyway...

With Joao there it is important to defog the entire eastern coast pretty soon-ish to allow for a coastal traderoute once we get Sailing and Bear Town

Tech:
Complete alpha at 50%
Go for CoL, but run 1 turn 0% research (wait for the Scientist)
Then go 100% all the way thru CoL > Math > CS.

Possibly insert Sailing someplace if we cannot trade for it soon and that island turns out to be Shangrila! (i.e. sea food/Grass hills/happy resource)

Will respond to Sleepless' post above mine later on.

JerichoHill said:

I agree with Mastiff. I am not that worried, now. Given we can come out of the Zep and whip a Phalanx in desperation I think its more critical to figure out the barb city and understand what we are up against.

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At the moment we can't do anything about the barb city and so if we avoid settling Bear Town till later we shouldn't do anything that will annoy it at the moment. If we settle Bear Town our borders will be touching. Without Astro we can't reach it anyway although it can reach us with galleys so best to leave it alone at the moment and hope it will leave us alone as well.

I agree a Zep is high prioirity build for scouting meeting the rest of the AI. Circumnavigation etc but we do need defenders and settlers first.

haphazard1 said:

I would hold the second warrior in the settler stack where he is. The barb should move onto the hill 1W. Then next turn advance the whole stack SW. The barb can try to attack if it wants against 2 warriors, or head towards our cities. The phalanx (who should have been moving south already, get him moving this turn!) will finish him off if he tries that.

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We can't afford to lose this settler though. So discretion might be the better part of valour if we lose one of the warriors.

Regarding next tech. I think we should go for Math next as alpha is just about to finish. As much as I'd like to be able to trade for it I can't see it happening.