SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

Are we plannung to use Liberalism for Rifling? I thought Wasting Time made a good point about getting Biology ASAP and then researching Rifling after the Liberalism to Biology slingshot. The 10-12 scientists under Representation in the NP city will make a huge impact on the end game. We already need Gunpowder on the way to Biology, so Rifling will not take long to research after that.

I'm in favor of a Biology beeline. MC is not required to make this work. We should be able to trade for MC relatively early on.

BTW, I will not be able to play right away. I am starting an important class tonight and will be busy with school work for the next few days.

Mesix said:

Are we plannung to use Liberalism for Rifling? I thought Wasting Time made a good point about getting Biology ASAP and then researching Rifling after the Liberalism to Biology slingshot. The 10-12 scientists under Representation in the NP city will make a huge impact on the end game. We already need Gunpowder on the way to Biology, so Rifling will not take long to research after that.

I'm in favor of a Biology beeline. MC is not required to make this work. We should be able to trade for MC relatively early on.

Click to expand...

Survival is essential.
Expansion is essential.
So Rifling is.

MC is 4-5 turns tech and it will not be so easy to trade. AI tend to research it to get Machinery, more than to build forges.
Forges early mean more production. We need to build expensive buildings and units and 25% more is a good boost.
We'll delay lib by some 15 or more turns to have Bio and rifling some 10 turns more.
All this to have a NW in a city to pop 1-2 GS?
This is not an OCC, a single NW can't make that difference compared to an expansion 25 turns earlier.
Astronomy is a priority more than Bio, to trade for resources with other continent(s).
And to unlock observatories and labs.
Launch is a good GP farm, one more will not add that much at this stage of the game.

Remember, we must launch between turn 190-200.
This means that after turn 160 LB is better than build an Academy or settle a GS.
Math is simple: a GS will roughly LB for some 1200-1300 (if we own some 25 cities) settle him on turn 160, even with OU+Repr.+FR will give 9*3.6=32.4 *30= 972.
But if you can have Electricity 1 turn sooner, you'll have more output from the pletora of windmills we have and some more things to be evaluated when the time will arrive.

Where is the point to set up a GS farm on turn 120, sacrificing our safety and expansion?
I manage to have Lib by turn 103 researching MC and calendar (yes, to build MoM).
Avoid those techs would have saved 8 turns. But it can be costly in other terms: no forges, more time to build anything, airports (and their TRs) delayed, MoM at risk, maybe difficult to trade for MC and calendar until too late.
Add some more 8 turns for the techs needed and we'll have Bio around turn 111, the NP turn 120. Rifling around 120. If we arrive there.

In my attempts, by turn 135 our empire is doubled, first AI is gone. I consider this much important than a NP in a city.

I made another attempt, and greatly improved.
Launch turn 191.
Key points:
- CS turn 46
- city #3 turn 59
- Pyramids turn 70 (with forge)
- Quickly built 4 settlers, city #7 founded turn 88
- Lib for Rifling turn 104. Detours: MC right after Currency, Calendar between Paper and Edu.
- DoW AI #1 turn 123, eliminated turn 135.
- DoW Ai #2 turn 140 (too late), eliminated turn 155, facing 2 paratroopers
- Astro turn 129
- Bio turn 138 but traded for Chem. (not usual, but not impossible)
First on Economics, Taj turn 143

Great luck with GPersons, never popped a GSpy, 3 GS in a row after the first one.
4 GEs, then GSs.

Conclusion: a peaceful game is out of question, but we can prioritize Bio at the expenses of Astro. We can go until optics, then take Chem>Bio.
Usually the AI won't trade Astro, but we have to research it anyway.

BTW in the first city i've found: 5 maces, 3 LBs, 5 Xbows, 4 cats, 5 Trebs, 1 sword.
What were they doing there, a diplomatic mission?

10 scientists from NP produce 60 raw under Representation. With modifiers, this is about 120-150 which is a significant gain in research. It is not just about the GS generated, but about teching faster to the end game which will generate an earlier launch date. Delaying Biology 40 turns could cost us 5,000 .

Mesix said:

10 scientists from NP produce 60 raw under Representation. With modifiers, this is about 120-150 which is a significant gain in research. It is not just about the GS generated, but about teching faster to the end game which will generate an earlier launch date. Delaying Biology 40 turns could cost us 5,000 .

Click to expand...

But delaying Rifling can cost us more, trust me.
But i'm trying a variant with Bio sooner than the other one. Around turn 127.
I'll let you know.

Hmmmm .... seems a pretty straight forward TS for me.

Launchpad grows next turn, turn off growth, finish lib, then start Oracle.

Marbles finishes warrior starts lib.

Worker hooks up marbles, then keeps building FP.

Did I missed anything?

berserks01 said:

Hmmmm .... seems a pretty straight forward TS for me.

Launchpad grows next turn, turn off growth, finish lib, then start Oracle.

Marbles finishes warrior starts lib.

Worker hooks up marbles, then keeps building FP.

Did I missed anything?

Click to expand...

Said in this way, you seem to miss all the MM.
I prepared an extensive note in #3.
Please confirm you've read it and your comments before start.

edit: be careful, correct MM is the most important thing to do (and almost the only one)
10 minutes, but to be spent with great attention to details!

BTW i'm posting this with my new curve keyboard. Seems fine.

Ok, I see your autolog. Will try to keep to the plan then.

I also agree with getting Bio with Lib. I just played a few test games, and NP is excellent for boosting research. I don't think Rifling is as important since we only have 1 neighbor and I doubt the AIs will get Astro soon enough to be of concern.

berserks01 said:

Ok, I see your autolog. Will try to keep to the plan then.

I forgot an important thing: trade OB with Hammu ASAP

I also agree with getting Bio with Lib. I just played a few test games, and NP is excellent for boosting research. I don't think Rifling is as important since we only have 1 neighbor and I doubt the AIs will get Astro soon enough to be of concern.

Click to expand...

Let's keep this discussion for later.
By my tests i see rifling is far better.
New cities boost research too.

Turns played. I tried to kept to your log Blub, but it is off as you can see from the log. It was already off when my TS started, so I just keep as close to your autolog as possible.



THE SAVE


EDIT: I didn't see the trade OB til after I finished. Sorry.

Bers, i can't open the save now, but i suspect you got the "first turn 1" flagged.

You can (i can't see how) have made some mistakes and have the library and the growth 1 turn later.
But the improvements are finished 1 turn later too. And you can't have do anything for this, but just have that flag on.

Standard is unflagged, so please remember to unflag it before your next TS.

I'll confirm this in few hours.
edit: yes, confirmed: you saved on turn 37. Everything seems perfect, at least in this turn

@all the team please verify you got the "first turn 1" unflagged before play your TS. Firstly is the standard option, second we risk to take wrong decisions if we're out of sync. This is QUICK speed.

About the roster: Mesix informed me that he can't play in the next few days, but i'd like to keep for myself the turns 46-52.
Thus, if Sweeta wants to play next TS, the better, i'll find some way to compensate Mesix for the swap.

As i said, we must keep the ball running: planning to finish around turn 200, we have some 163 turns to play. Considering 7 turns/TS, but probably less when the game advances or in war, we got between 23 and 30 TSs to play.
4 days each at best, we have more than 3 months.

Research: I wrote this before and have thought about it some more:


PH, Writing, CoL,
Math (delay Oracle if necessary to guarantee we have it)
I prefer Electricity from the Oracle (gives 1 extra Gold for WM) but it seems others want CS. Electricity won't come into play until later so we can compensate.
CS, Paper,
Education (hopefully with a GS), The idea here is to get to Rifling as quickly as possible.
Gunpowder Prerequisite for Rifling.
Rifling It takes only 10 to 12 turns to complete. If we want it for free we need Philo and Liberalism and both those are going to take slightly longer to research than just going straight to Rifling. The quicker we get Paratroops the quicker we take out the AI
Philo (unless we can trade for it)
Liberalism. Get Rocketry from Liberalism or another advanced tech, such as Electricity or Biology.

I reviewed the save and everything looks good. The next player will have to MM Athens so that it finishes the Oracle on the same turn as Math (and not before). Right now we have 4 turns left on CoL and it says Math will take 6 turns. I think we can cut that by a turn by getting research back up to 100%.

I think we'll find another Civ to the SW behind the mountains. There is a row of hills followed by at least one jungle square in the eastern part of the mountain range near the river. This size map is 60 x 40 tiles and there is plenty of room for more land south of the mountains.

Usually this kind of map gets a layer of ice 7 to 8 tiles thick at the top and bottom edges of the map. There is a chance the map has been modded to block off travel from east to west with our continent. If there isn't any world wrap then it would be good to be the power broker in the middle.

The quicker we get to Paratroopers the faster we can eliminate or cut back other AIs.
Skip Alpha, MC, and Machinery for now. We should be able to trade CoL for Alpha and MC, then trade for Machinery. We are out researching the AI now and will be able to trade them old techs for a while. Getting Alpha early by researching it ourselves doesn't gain us a whole lot at this point as we only know Hammi. Even if we meet another Civ, it won't help much. Unless we want to team up with Hammi and gift him techs with an idea toward forming a Permanent Alliance, Alpha is not worth the detour.

Yep, i can take it. I've been quiet for a while, so sorry about that. Last week was very busy, but this week I have lots of time.

OK Sweeta, i'll update the roster. Just post a PPP and assure you' ve read my autolog on #3.

GB, some good ideas in your proposal.
Using the Oracle for else than CS is a trap: CS is a 10 turns tech now, Elec is 3 turns at the proper time.
But self-research rifling and use lib for Bio can be a good idea.
To be accurate, the Academy will save 1 turn to Math, but (as you can see from my autolog) the Oracle needs to be delayed 1 turn. Anyway it's all clear in the autolog.
Detours from Lib, or Edu:
- Alpha (4 t) to backfill all the early techs with trades.
- Currency (4 t)to gain some money from trades and for the additional TRs
- MC (4-5 t)for forges: we need to build expensive buildings and units, we need them. We need also a couple GEs, better put an eng at work right after we have the forge (an eng in capital means 2 raw so 3)
- Calendar (3 t) for MoM: the AI is not so willing to trade it in BtS, and GAges of 9 turns instead of 6 are a good boost, trust me
Those techs will also open trading opportunities.
Still, we'll research paper after MC, so we can maybe trade for WM

I've made a lot of tests and the Bio/NP combo is a good thing, but not so great as someone says. As i already said, this is not an OCC.

Civics: Sweeta, you'll be asked to revolt to confu. We'll never adopt a religion, unless in GAge. After the Oracle you'll be asked to revolt to Bureau: don't do it, but open the F3 and choose Bureau and Caste.
Caste will arrive for free and we need it to run as many Sci we can in Launch.

Remember we need Monarchy for the path to Economics, Construction for the path to Bio and we must have some tech to trade for them. I'll never trade paper nor Edu until very late in the game.
In my tests i usually traded for all the monarchy/feud/guilds/bank. rarely even for engin and chem.

edit: updated page 1.
remember to sign OB with Hammu ASAP.

We *may* need to detour for Alphabet, but not yet. We will probably be able to trade for it, but we should decide that when we meet the 2nd AI.

Simon_c said:

We *may* need to detour for Alphabet, but not yet. We will probably be able to trade for it, but we should decide that when we meet the 2nd AI.

Click to expand...

We *must* detour to Alpha ASAP to backfill all the "worker techs".
If you wanna be able to trade writing and other cheap techs for something, you need Alpha ASAP.
We *must* know where copper, iron, horses are.

In BtS most AIs trade for some monopoly techs even if you're their only contact.
They highly estimated Alpha for the spies. You'll never have that in trade. Like masonry, Poly, Mono, Theo, usually very difficult to trade, until they're obsolete.
Usually, monarchy is traded even as monopoly.

Let's not be duped by the "we can research that in 1 turn".
It's quick, 1 turn is like 5 in Marathon.

Trust your captain: before to begin no one have bet on a successful CS sling without gold or similar. We're goin' to build 2 key WW by turn 43.
And remember, i'm a quattromaster, i know very, very well the game mechanics.
And the civs/leaders.

I was working on the basis the Ai would not trade if it only knew one player. If it will trade to us when it knows noone else, then yes, Alpha becomes more important