Agree with saving him for a Golden Age, or settling him im Lake Mastiff again.
But building an Islamic Shrine????? How do you want to take profit of that? Still run OR later (instead of Pacifism or FR), to be able to build Missionaries and spread Islam?
The idea indeed would be to build the shrine and build some Missionaries in OR at some point.
If we have Christo shouldnt be a big problem??
Only though if we can force/luck out on it beeing in LM, so we can make it pay big time with Wall street (if we ever get that up !)
Unless we research both Computers and lasers (one or the other is optional) we cannot bulb Fission with a GS
Once we open up Laser (satelites) or Computers (plastics) we cannot bulb anything but Computers/Laser
As far as I can tell of your chart... it pretty much goes like
Printing Press > Chemistry
These two are to early to bulb IMHO
Fiber optics > Computers > Laser > Fission
Once we get plastics we are commited to bulbing Computers or Laser (in this order) then Fiber optics once we have Computers or Laser.
Unless we research both no way to bulb on Fusion.
The idea indeed would be to build the shrine and build some Missionaries in OR at some point.
If we have Christo shouldnt be a big problem??
Only though if we can force/luck out on it beeing in LM, so we can make it pay big time with Wall street (if we ever get that up !)
I agree that switching to OR is no problem with Cristo, but I cannot believe it will pay out, even if we manage to 'found' Islam in Lake Mastiff as well, with Wall Street.
We lose FR (happiness and 10% research), we pay higher civic-maintenance and we have to build those missionaries, instead of wealth or research, even if only for a few turns.
Bulbing
I meant to say:
Unless we research both Computers and Lasers we cannot buld FUsion
Fission is the tech we can already research/bulb towards (once we have researched PP and still dont have Engineering or have researched Chemistry)
Fusion is the last tech in the tech-tree we need for some space part (engine if I remember right)
Researching a 5000+ optional tech to get 20% discount on Fiber Optics (~500 beakers) and be able to bulb for ~1500 beakers on FUsion doesnt make sense.
But we dont NEED FISsion untill we need FUsion, we lose out on 20% towards Ecology (right?) but keep the ability to bulb towards space.
Settled GS vs Bulbing
At 9 beakers/turn for a rep-enhanced settled GS, further enhanced by Lib/Uni/Academy/Obs/Lab/Oxford... For +250% beakers.
That is worth 22.5 beakers + 2 hammers (Buro + Forge + Factory), how valuable are the hammers??
At 100 pop (16 cities at average 6 pop) we get 1.200 beakers per bulb, at 22.5 beakers... For beakers itself it will take 54 turns to pay for itself settling vs bulbing
This means if payoff is 54 turns and we are aiming to finish say turn 190-ish... We will -beaker wize- be better off bulbing, however hammers are hard to value.
Lets convert the 2 hammers to 3 gold to 6 beakers = 28.5 beakers => 42 turns...
So somewhere between turn 140-ish and 155-ish is where settling a GS will no longer pay off.
So we have something like 40-50 turns where settling a GS is worth while after that bulbing is better.
defending Trireme
Note that in Chris' turnset one of the Galleys attacked our 2 defending Trireme's. I think it reads we have 78% chance to win (78% ONLY!) 1 in 5 we lose
Even at 78% the Trireme was damaged to 0.6/2 health as far as things stand it is FUBAR untill healed.
I totally do not feel comfortable leaving the Trireme out there to be picked off by 2 (possibly 1) galley
Moaui
If we want any substantial effect/benifit from Moaui we need to get it build soonest! Perhaps building it in that second greenland city is an idea? That requires a lot of whipping and a couple of chops, would make a small fishing city into something semi usefull.
SdL? small polution if we want to run scientists there??
Where else can be viably build Maoui and get good benifit from it?? Suggestions? Ideas??
Do we want to build Maoui, if so where/when?
OR vs FR
If we -for some reason or another- cannot sustain 100% all game long, we can drop science to 0% for a turn or two, swap to OR whack out a couple of misionaries.
Swap back to FR and turn back on research at 100% (110%)
Assuming Market/Grocer/Bank (MGB) and Wall street in LM at +200% gold, that gives 3 gold per turn.
So even at 9 turns before the end building a missionary at 1:1 conversion is no worse than building gold outright.
At 60 turns to the end 26 hammers for a missionary at 3gpt = 180 gold / 26 hammers => 1:7 conversion!!! Now compare that to the 1:1 conversion of outright gold building!
At 30 turns 90 gold / 26 => 1:3.5
At 17 turns 51 gold / 26 => 1:2
At 13 turns 39 gold / 26 => 1:1.5
Even if we can sustain 80%, we can run 2 turns at 0% and 8 at 100% while swapping in and out of Civics as needed. Building missionaries (assuming its your Wall street city) is a highly effective way of building gold !
Down side of wallstreet is offcourse its cost and the cost of building 6 banks, when we are running at 80+% research banks are not that usefull.
But even with only MGB, 2 gold per turn per Missionary...
60 turns 120 gold / 26 = 1:4.6
30 turns 60 gold / 26 = 1:2.3
20 turns 40 gold / 26 = 1:1.5
13 turns 26 gold / 26 = 1:1
With an airport in the cities building missionaries (preferably 3 cities if we have 2 religions) we can fly the missionaries to the target city and convert that city.
The missionarie builders would build 3 for religion #2 (Islam or possibly Taoism) followed by 3 for Confu (or possibly Toaism/Islam/Hindu/Judaism )
Lets assume these cities have Forge/Factory/Power for +100% already, then if we add 100% resource for i.e. Eifel tower. for +200%.
At 13 base hammers a missionary is 26 hammers (1 turn). While Eifel would build 39 hammers/gold, that is a 1.5 conversion rate, so only 20 turns from the end the missionaries are not worth building if we only have MGB. Add wall street and up to turn 13 building a missionary is not worse than outright building gold!!!
I dont know the cost of running OR vs FR at that point, but pure hammer to gold conversion Missionaries are very powerfull... Assuming you dont need the gold NOW. But have the patients to wait 9-13 (depending on wall street) for the (added) payoff.
For this reason I can also see us researching Theology and giving it to Joao, with some good luck he may research Devine right get Islam and spend hammers on Missionaries... and/or use a GP to make a shrine?
If not trying for Islam (even though of our tech path) if we can force it into LM... AND get Wall street there, can be pretty powerfull... DO NOT underestimate the power of religion or the power of Shrine cash when spread widely enough!
Now Devine Right may also have the benifit of maybe Joao (if we are extreemly lucky) building Versailles for us!!! This would be UBER GOOD! and reason for him to go from highly likely dead, to absolutely guarantee 110% killed dead!
Now with more religions there is a failure rate, but with the second religion I rarely fail, the third has some failures and only the fourth becomes a real problem, but we wont get that far I think?! I hope!?
FR gets 1 happy per religion, for the moment we will not have more than one religion (confu) in any city, unless we build Missionaries (or the AI does so for us). Happyness lost will be minimal IMHO.
Researching a 5000+ optional tech to get 20% discount on Fiber Optics (~500 beakers) and be able to bulb for ~1500 beakers on FUsion doesnt make sense.
Well, Ecology should in any case be teched after Fusion, no? It allows the cheapest part of the ship.
And anyway, even without Fission, we can still bulb Computers or Laser, and then Fiber Optics. That's more than enough for 4 or 5 GScientists, eventually!
I would not really consider 2 hammers in these calculations. They probably won't shave off even 1 turn off the SS-parts, and they are not really worth considering for building wealth or research, if we aim for 1000 beakers/turn!
While the odds are not fantastic, I would still defend our nets. As not all Galleys have attacked that turn, I cannot imagine them all attacking now!
And if we retreat the fully-healed Trireme as well, that's really an invitation for that NavII-Galley to come and pillage our nets immediately. We could then attack it, if it's alone, but the odds would be even worse (Barb-Galley gets coastal-defense-bonus), and we surely had to build a new Workboat.
Hmmm, SdL could build it soonest, thus take the most benefit from it.
Building it in a new city will take a very long time. Will there be enough time for it to pay-off?
As new cities, I could see a 2nd Island city, or maybe Food Heaven (with much food, mines and workshops, turning it into a big production city?). But as I said, it will take them very long to finish it
Assuming we cannot run 100% science and assuming we will build Cristo (both quite probable), switching Civics every other turn to build 3 or 6 missionaries, then research again, sounds very nice, even without Wall Street. Really something to consider later ...
OK, reading the latest posts and getting ready to play.
- Will not attack the barbs in the forest, and instead wait for paras. If they come out in the open, though, they get smashed.
- I will risk the trireme and continue to defend the seafood. I do not want to just give it to the barbs for pillage, and end up having to counter-attack with them getting the +10% defense. Hopefully we will not get a mass barb attack...but if we do, we do.
- Good points from Kale and Sleepless on worker assignments (rice and wine, wheat by Sleeps, southern activities), should save a worker turn or three. Will do.
- I do not want to make a 1 gpt deal with Hammi just a few turns before (hopefully) better deals are available overseas. I will swap resources with Joao if possible, we still need more resource-turns there to get +diplo.
- Build queues only become visible when you reach the "investigate city" level with EP. City visibility just allows you to see everything in/near a city, much like the original pre-BTS shrine vision.
Getting to investigate city takes a lot of EP, so I think I will dial down HC and put points into WK. It is going to take quite a while before we can see anyone else's research, though.
Chris, I did see your comments on espionage and settling; they got sort of lumped in with the general response. Sorry for not mentioning it.
- On possible future cities, the spare tiles on greenland are possible. Taking Atlantis would be an option, even though the city would lose much value. The peninsula east of Grapeville for a fish-fed city has more food than the greenland site, could be good to run several scientists. If Hammi has not settled it, there was a possible game/seafood site to his north. Not good for much else, but plenty of food to easily run several scientists.
- On Moai, I am skeptical it will ever really pay off. With stone it would probably be worth building, but without stone I do not see it as worth the hammers.
- Question for a world builder test: can you capture national wonders? If so, taking Atlantis could pay off by giving us a couple pre-built. The city would still lose a lot as duplicate special buildings are destroyed, etc. But something to consider.
- Do we want to consider a mass cottage drive, once we reach Democracy? We need more beakers...well, cottages are the traditional way to do that. We have held back since we had better short term options (preserves and windmills), but once we can add Emancipation to speed-grow new cottages the math might work out in favor of cottage cheese for key cities.
We would need happiness to replace the forest preserves as they get cut down, but hopefully some overseas resource deals will help, we can build odeons, Eiffel and R&R would add more (plus odeons again), maybe some FR. If we could manage the happiness, picture JH with towns pumping out 7 commerce per turn in place of those 2 commerce preserves. Picture mass chopping those forests into the SoL (or a factory, or whatever). An extra 5 base commerce per tile, with JH's soon-to-be 250% beaker bonus...there would be an initial slow period as they grew, but we could rapidly gain some of those missing hundreds of bpt to reach our targets.
Anyway, we can check the math later. Just something to consider. Now, off to play the turnset. No more prophets, please and thank you!
OK, turnset played. Some bad luck, but considerably more good luck.
T105 (inherited turn)
- Shift EP mostly to WK, keeping a little on HC
- Assign more scientists in LM
- Assign more scientists, engineer in IT
- Sleeps works the windmill rather than the wine
- BT switched to settler
T106
- Our trireme fights bravely, but perishes. Kale was right on this one, although our luck was poor. First barb had 4.4% odds, but damaged us to 1.4. Second had right around 50%, and killed our brave trireme.
- I decide to risk our injured trireme to finish the wounded barb -- we will be able to retreat out of range of the remaining galley in Atlantis, and have 94.4% odds. Of course, we lose.
- IT fires most scientists, puts hammers into Colossus.
- Two Rivers is founded, costing 11 gpt.
T107
- Hammi builds the Sistine Chapel! Not a wonder I would have put on order, but I'll take it.
- The badly wounded (0.2/2) barb galley retreats to Atlantis to heal, leaving our clams unpillaged!
- Hammi has Theology this turn.
- IT has 29 hammers into the Colossus, and another 29 going this turn.
T108
- Finish Astro, start Currency Gunpowder!
- WK has discovered Currency, and Hammi is now willing to trade!
- HBR is also now available, and Stalin has finished Engineering. One more off-continent AI and HC should be willing to trade it. WK also has Aesthetics, so it also should become available with one more AI knowing it. Finally we are getting somewhere!
- Cut a deal with Hammi:
Hopefully he will build some forges for us. He would not cough up any more gold, even with his map removed from the deal. Oh well, we got what we really wanted!
- Foreign trade jumps from 6 (all with Hammi) last turn to 57 this turn! Astro plus Currency gives us a sizable boost.
- I check the resource screens...and find no off-continent resources available at all. Very surprising...we know they have them, although the AIs are expanding really slowly. Tons of good land still available overseas...if this was not pure space race, I would be settling those sites! Gold, gems, iron, oil, sugar, horses, pigs, seafood...tons of great sites still open. What are those off-continent AIs doing with their time?!?!?
- I cancel all existing deals to move resources around. Trade marble back to Hammi for 5 gpt this time, and fish to Shaka for 1 gpt. That is all the non-WK cash available, unfortunately.
- Gift resources for diplo: 6 (wheat, copper, corn, fish, fur, wine) to HC as we need him friendly ASAP. Trade around other resources, get at least 1 going to everyone but WK.
- We got another +1 for fave civic with HC this turn, up to +7 net. We will get resources +1 in 9 turns, then another +1 fave civic the turn after, for +9 net and that should hopefully be enough for friendly. So we are very close to being able to trade at will with HC.
T109
- Stalin builds Chichen Itza...he is welcome to it.
- Atlantis has produced (or upgraded?) a mace. Keeping a close eye on the barbs....
- Trade sheep for fish with Joao, sheep for corn with Shaka for more resource diplo.
- LM will pop a GP next turn: 7% prophet, 11% GE, 82% GS. Reassign two scientists to forest preserves to finish the courthouse a turn earlier.
T110
- Finish Gunpowder, begin Rifling.
- We get a GS! Settled in JH immediately for 18 bpt, soon to be more.
- WK gets a prophet. He would build the Judaic shrine the following turn.
- Joao has a settler party near brown dot -- he would likely have beaten us to it even if we had gone for it. He has split the site, the blasted spammer -- more weak cities instead of fewer stronger ones for us to capture.
- Atlantis now has 2 maces.
- HC has Feudalism, and is working on Music (shows as 1 turn left?).
T111
- JH finishes observatory, starts lab. Up to 370.50 bpt just from our capital.
- HC now working on CS, also shows as 1 turn left. This looks like an opportunity -- would he give us his gold to save 1 turn on CS. Why yes, yes he would! 160 gold for 1 turn of CS, thank you very much! Cha-ching!
- Trade rice for sheep with Hammi, but ended up unable to redeal the sheep. Oh well.
T112
- HC now working on Theo, and again it shows 1 turn. Not sure what is happening here -- some kind of big beaker overflow? Or is he really teching that fast? Maybe had it partially teched earlier, then switched when Christianity got founded elsewhere?
- Food Heaven is founded, costing 11 gpt.
- Grapeville is founded, costing 10 gpt.
- Trade extra wine (from under Grapeville) to Stalin for 2 gpt.
T113
- Finish Rifling, start...well, what next? Tentatively set to PP, but can be changed.
- AP vote screen appears! Apparently, Hammi has been kind enough to build us the AP in Babylon! How very nice of him.... Only choices are Hammi for resident or abstain, and he has enough votes anyway. So we vote for Hammi and get +2 diplo.
- A forest grows at Sleeps (inside fat cross), and another near JH (outside FC, obviously).
- Shaka learns Feudalism, and HC is now willing to trade it. Paper is not enough, though, so we would have to give him Astro. Not sure if that is worth it, but again we are trying to accelerate the AIs so maybe we should? Decision for the next turnset.
- CiB has lost two tiles to Hammi's culture. Good thing that will be going away soon. Still, we will definitely need a strong defender for the city, with close borders allowing a fast attack.
- Trade iron to HC (he had neither copper nor iron), for 7 resources per turn. Will bring the +diplo one turn sooner.
- Trade fur to Joao for 5 gpt. SdL will grow to the cap (with fur) next turn, but Biff will finish the next camp next turn, so we will be OK. And gold means beakers!
OK, here is the current tech screen:
Sorry about the pop-up over Stalin, he has Engineering in case it is not clear. (Not sure why the popup appears in the screenshot sometimes but not other times. Anyone know?)
Zeps have not moved. We are due another GP from IT in 2 turns (can not quite make it one turn without starving the city down a size, so I have reassigned scientists to tiles for this turn).
I have started a para in Sleepy, can be changed of course. And we should decide what to tech next - no beakers are actually invested in PP yet.
Workers are in position to build another windmill at SdL (I have been running an engineer since last growth), and is moving to FH's pigs to start it the turn borders pop. A WB is on its way to FH from Bear Town, which is starting another. Maybe we need another ship? We can build a galleon now if we want, although the barbs are rather inexplicably leaving our clams alone.
Save is uploaded, here is the turnset log:
Spoiler:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 900 AD to 1060 AD:
Turn 105, 900 AD: Confucianism has spread in Sleep's Shock.
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley (2.00) vs Pericles'sTrireme (3.20)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 4.4%
Turn 105, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 105, 900 AD: (Class Defense: +50%)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Pericles's Trireme has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley (2.20) vs Pericles'sTrireme (2.24)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Combat Odds: 52.4%
Turn 105, 900 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 105, 900 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 105, 900 AD: (Class Defense: +50%)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 17 (53/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 17 (36/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 17 (19/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 17 (2/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 105, 900 AD: Barbarian's Galley has defeated Pericles's Trireme!
Turn 106, 920 AD: Pericles's Trireme (1.04) vs Barbarian'sGalley (0.52)
Turn 106, 920 AD: Combat Odds: 94.4%
Turn 106, 920 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 106, 920 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 106, 920 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 106, 920 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 106, 920 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 24 (10/100HP)
Turn 106, 920 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 106, 920 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 106, 920 AD: Pericles's Trireme is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 106, 920 AD: Barbarian's Galley has defeated Pericles's Trireme!
Turn 106, 920 AD: Two Rivers has been founded.
Turn 106, 920 AD: Hammurabi has completed The Sistine Chapel!
Turn 107, 940 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 107, 940 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in Sushi de Luxe. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 108, 960 AD: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 108, 960 AD: You have discovered Horseback Riding!
Turn 108, 960 AD: The borders of CopperIceBall have expanded!
Turn 108, 960 AD: The borders of Two Rivers have expanded!
Turn 108, 960 AD: Stalin has completed Chichen Itza!
Turn 108, 960 AD: Ishikawa Goemon (Great Spy) has been born in St. Petersburg (Stalin)!
Turn 109, 980 AD: You have discovered Gunpowder!
Turn 109, 980 AD: Zu Chongzhi (Great Scientist) has been born in Lake Mastiff (Pericles)!
Turn 109, 980 AD: Jeanne d'Arc (Great Prophet) has been born in Seoul (Wang Kon)!
Turn 110, 1000 AD: You have trained a Settler in Bear Town. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 110, 1000 AD: Wang Kon has completed The Temple of Solomon!
Turn 111, 1020 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bear Town!
Turn 111, 1020 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Longbowman! (-15% Damage)
Turn 111, 1020 AD: Your Air Misfit has attacked an enemy Axeman! (-19% Damage)
Turn 111, 1020 AD: Sleep's Shock has grown to size 7
Turn 112, 1040 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bear Town!
Turn 112, 1040 AD: Your Air Chris has attacked an enemy Longbowman! (-15% Damage)
Turn 112, 1040 AD: Your Air Misfit has attacked an enemy Axeman! (-16% Damage)
Turn 112, 1040 AD: Food Heaven has been founded.
Turn 112, 1040 AD: Grapeville has been founded.
Turn 112, 1040 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ? for Grapeville.
Turn 112, 1040 AD: You have discovered Rifling!
Turn 112, 1040 AD: Bear Town has grown to size 5
Turn 112, 1040 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Bear Town. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 112, 1040 AD: Leaders of Confucianism have a vision of uniting all Confucian faithful under the The Apostolic Palace.
Turn 112, 1040 AD: Hammurabi has completed The Apostolic Palace!
Turn 112, 1040 AD: Sushi de Luxe's cultural boundary is about to expand.
Turn 112, 1040 AD: A Forest has grown near Sleep's Shock!
Turn 112, 1040 AD: A Forest has grown near Jericho's Hill!
Turn 113, 1060 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Bear Town!
Turn 113, 1060 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Huayna Capac
Kale is UP! to build us a force to conquer Babylonia!
Mastiff is on deck.
Dont think so, I think you used to be able to do so... but they patched this to not be possible (I think)
Hap said:
We would need happiness to replace the forest preserves as they get cut down, but hopefully some overseas resource deals will help, we can build odeons, Eiffel and R&R would add more (plus odeons again), maybe some FR. If we could manage the happiness, picture JH with towns pumping out 7 commerce per turn in place of those 2 commerce preserves. Picture mass chopping those forests into the SoL (or a factory, or whatever). An extra 5 base commerce per tile, with JH's soon-to-be 250% beaker bonus...there would be an initial slow period as they grew, but we could rapidly gain some of those missing hundreds of bpt to reach our targets.
Definatly! JH is to be cottaged up in the (near) future IMHO. With Democracy it will take 3 turns for a cottage to be a Hamlett, which is equal to a preserve.
Only downside is the hammers that are lost and (possibly) replace much later with Uni Suff. Some of the chopped hammers replace this, but still.... It is probably worth keeping them thru the Taj GA, possibly even better to already start replacing the plains preserves where happyness allows.
This is one of the reasons I wanted that worker at JH to start Watermilling NOW more hammers for now, to build Para's and more beakers later with cottages.
Hap Turnset said:
T106
- Our trireme fights bravely, but perishes. Kale was right on this one, although our luck was poor. First barb had 4.4% odds, but damaged us to 1.4. Second had right around 50%, and killed our brave trireme.
Hopefully he will build some forges for us. He would not cough up any more gold, even with his map removed from the deal. Oh well, we got what we really wanted!
- Shaka learns Feudalism, and HC is now willing to trade it. Paper is not enough, though, so we would have to give him Astro. Not sure if that is worth it, but again we are trying to accelerate the AIs so maybe we should? Decision for the next turnset.
No way should we give the wonder spammer Astro, this prevents him from finishing/building the Colossus. Although it may be a strategy to try and cut him just short to also turn his colossus into gold (for us) and let WK or someone else (eventually) finish it.
Hap Turnset said:
- Trade fur to Joao for 5 gpt. SdL will grow to the cap (with fur) next turn, but Biff will finish the next camp next turn, so we will be OK. And gold means beakers!
Sorry about the pop-up over Stalin, he has Engineering in case it is not clear. (Not sure why the popup appears in the screenshot sometimes but not other times. Anyone know?)
How good are the chances Hammi will come up with Philo (soon) ??
If these odds are what I think they are (slim) then going Philo > Nationalism > Lib (radio)
Or Philo > Nationalism > Constitution (Rep) > Lib (radio)
But I think we would either revolt on the Taj GA or when we finish Christo and not take the hit on a turn of anarchy at this time.
Comments:
1) We should share our techs with backwards Shaka and Stalin
We want them to come up with techs like Aesthetics/Engineering/Theology, not currency or optics.
2) Sell Compass to Hammi for his 120 and map
3) Sell Calander to Joao for his 30
4) Moaui
At 80 turns left and 167 hammers needed to build it we need to get Moaui done BAD. But 167 hammers is also a Para from SdL in 6 turns or so...
Para> Moaui in SdL or Moaui > Lab/Para?
5) Workers
namliaM and Fearless look out of place to me??? Where are they heading? Perhaps namliaM should have been on the plains hill to start the windmill??
6) Bear town
We now have no worker near BT building improvement there, this is BAD!
Double back namliaM to farm the forest North of the GV rice??
7) Units
We are paying 1gpt for upkeep units outside our borders
Reshuffle the Xbows to MPs.
Get Zeppelin home
My turnset looks to be quite simple Para's from JH and Sleeps
Get an engineer added to JH for extra hammers to the Para's in 2 turns. With JH on its cap anyway drain some food from the foodbar by assigning the corn to LM next turn. Helps LM to grow much faster, doesnt hurt JH but actually helps adding a few GPP.
CiB builds its own Riffle for defense instead of the Obs planned.
LM Market > Missionaries (1 every 2 turns) preverably send to Joao land to confuse the Taoist cities, if we are not planning on going for Islam. If we are going for Islam, we need to get our own cities confused like crazy!
SdL Obs>Missionary (if we want Islam,skip it we if we dont)>Para>Para>Moaui
We can use the 2 extra para's in 10 turns.
In total the AI has 170 gold available for us, we have 414, for a total of 584 / 90 = 6 turns at 100%, after this we need to find gold someplace! Perhaps we want to add a market in JH for +25% gold there (or +12% or so empire wide) at the cost of a Para.
Build gold in some cities?
CiB at 11 gold per turn, after the riffle (7 turns)
IT at 16 gpt, after the Obs
TR at 13 gpt after the lighthouse (paying for itself )
FH run 4 Merchants after working Fish/Pig/Clams at 8gpt
BT at 10gpt after the Granary
Total good for 58gpt while we are running at -84gpt currently leaves -26gpt...
we could add LM at 15gpt but long term that is simply WRONG! Still would leave -11gpt. We can still build gold in FH, longer term that should yield some 8gpt as well putting us at -3 currently.
I dont really want to add SdL, JH or Sleeps to gold building at this time as Para's are just to important right now. But one turn of gold building in JH = 54 gold at -11 is 4 turns at 100% Gold > Para > Para > Gold > Para > Para
Or skip the Para's in SdL, instead build Moaui ASAP (8 turns from now) and build 27gpt there?? And leave JH to build Para>Para>Para while at +1gpt
I prefer that actually
So
SdL Obs>Moaui> Gold
All other cities baring FH, LM, JH and Sleeps also build gold to get us at +gpt and 100%
Although it may be better to go 0% one more time untill we can run 100% to finish the Labs in IT and SdL and the Obs in CiB. Adding roughly 10 beakers in each city, 30 beakers/turn. Sacrificing 167 + 167 + 100 = 434 gold = 2 turns at 0% = 1200 beakers research 'lost' at 30 bpt = 40 turns to pay off, possibly less if we get the Colossus gold and/or get more commerce/beakers in these cities. This seems to pay off though
On EPs
I would prefer to send our EPs to Shaka and Stalin not WK. Mid term WK's shrines are going to be ours IMHO -if we get a half decent chance to grab them
The Market in JH would pay off if we run 4 turns at 0% or 12 turns at 70% (current break even)
I have set our research goal for turn 195 all techs researched. That means from now on our target is 1155 beakers per turn
If we want to run (some) turns at 0% I would do so THIS FIRST TURN before the Obs in SdL and the Lab in JH finish. Some more precise planning of mainly the GPT is needed I think?!
I do not want to make a 1 gpt deal with Hammi just a few turns before (hopefully) better deals are available overseas. I will swap resources with Joao if possible, we still need more resource-turns there to get +diplo.
Build queues only become visible when you reach the "investigate city" level with EP. City visibility just allows you to see everything in/near a city, much like the original pre-BTS shrine vision.
Taking Atlantis would be an option, even though the city would lose much value.
[...]
Question for a world builder test: can you capture national wonders? If so, taking Atlantis could pay off by giving us a couple pre-built. The city would still lose a lot as duplicate special buildings are destroyed, etc. But something to consider.
Our trireme fights bravely, but perishes. Kale was right on this one, although our luck was poor. First barb had 4.4% odds, but damaged us to 1.4. Second had right around 50%, and killed our brave trireme.
- I decide to risk our injured trireme to finish the wounded barb -- we will be able to retreat out of range of the remaining galley in Atlantis, and have 94.4% odds. Of course, we lose.
I still think this was the right choice ... even if we had some bad luck with RNG. The first Trireme could very well have defeated both Galleys, at 50% in the 2nd battle
HC now working on Theo, and again it shows 1 turn. Not sure what is happening here -- some kind of big beaker overflow? Or is he really teching that fast? Maybe had it partially teched earlier, then switched when Christianity got founded elsewhere?
Shaka learns Feudalism, and HC is now willing to trade it. Paper is not enough, though, so we would have to give him Astro. Not sure if that is worth it, but again we are trying to accelerate the AIs so maybe we should? Decision for the next turnset.
We should certainly do that trade. Gives HC foreign traderoutes as well = more commerce for him = faster teching = more trades for us
What you didn't do though was gifting the AIs (Joao, Shaka, Stalin) Compass and Optics. (I forgot to mention it as well )
I would do this immediately, so they can build Caravels for exploring and meeting each other, and it allows us to give them Astronomy as well, for more commerce.
Although Astronomy allows them to reach us; we need to make sure they are happy enough towards us. Or, maybe wait until Shaka has finally DOWed on his target ... to be sure it's not us for some strange AI-reasoning ...
Sorry about the pop-up over Stalin, he has Engineering in case it is not clear. (Not sure why the popup appears in the screenshot sometimes but not other times. Anyone know?)
I don't know what causes this, but I had that problem as well, and simply stopped taking named screenshots. I simply take them with 'PrintScreen', and work with standard file-names
No way should we give the wonder spammer Astro, this prevents him from finishing/building the Colossus. Although it may be a strategy to try and cut him just short to also turn his colossus into gold (for us) and let WK or someone else (eventually) finish it.
Maybe give it to HC only, so his hammers turn into gold as you suggested, and so he gets those foreign traderoutes, and let Shaka, Stalin, Wang Kon or Joao build the Colossus.
With Ctrl+Print_Screen (or is it Alt+Print_Screen), you can name your screenshot, instead of that standard 'screenshot####.jpg'-name.
But it includes that Pop-Up-problem
How good are the chances Hammi will come up with Philo (soon) ??
If these odds are what I think they are (slim) then going Philo > Nationalism > Lib (radio)
Or Philo > Nationalism > Constitution (Rep) > Lib (radio)
What about Philo > Lib, as I suggested above, and then Nationalism > Constitution? Allows us to trade Education to the AIs, so they can build their Unis and Oxford?
LM Market > Missionaries (1 every 2 turns) preverably send to Joao land to confuse the Taoist cities, if we are not planning on going for Islam. If we are going for Islam, we need to get our own cities confused like crazy!
How many Taoist cities does Joao actually have? He only founded that religion some ~12-15 turns ago, so I assume he doesn't have too many. If we confuse more cities than he has at the moment, he may switch religion and spread Confucianism himself?
And if we tech the 4 techs above before Divine Right, we have more than enough time to confuse all our cities before founding Islam!
We also need Democracy sometime ... where do you see us teching DR, in fact?
Or skip the Para's in SdL, instead build Moaui ASAP (8 turns from now) and build 27gpt there?? And leave JH to build Para>Para>Para while at +1gpt
I prefer that actually
Apostolic Palace. We now need to spread conf to our cities before we attack Ham. You can guarantee we will get a stop the war vote when we attack Ham so we need more votes to vote against the proposal. Also no spreading conf to Joao other than natural spread as he will vote to stop the war as well. On the plus side we do get +2h for each temple we build making them a lot more attractive. We do lose them if we defy a stop the war vote and get 5 unhappies as well. Just something to think about.
Tech Path.
I like Philo - Nat or Lib. Hopefully we will get a GE from IT and then definitely Lib for radio and the CR. We can then adopt Nat for a couple of turns and draft some defensive rifles. Saves building them. Alternatively we can do it in a GAge but we have to spend 5 turns in Nat. I'm not so keen on pp/demo atm. We don't have any cottages and to make the most of the SoL we really need to be in Rep which negates the civic bonus from HC/Joao.
Money. How about the GM from running max merchants in Food Heaven when available and after Nat heading for the GM from Economics for trade missions. For this we need Feud - Guilds - Banking - Economics. Then on to Corporation for the extra trade route. So then Const - Corp then beeline from there to Indust. If we go philo next we should be able to get feud from that.
Resource trades. Remember we can only get + 2 from you supplied us with resources so we can dial them down a bit with HC after we get there and hopefully sell them elsewhere. Also a workboat still required for the whales. Probably have to come from LM or IT if the barbs see it coming from BT they might go for it.
I really don't want to give Shaka/Stalin optics/astro atm. I don't mind selling them but don't want to be a target for Shaka. Defintely no giving HC astro until he's built the Colossus.
Lastly Nat Wonders are destroyed so unless we end up having 2 lighthouses in Atlantis not worth attacking atm imho.
Since we can now build Para's, Nationhood makes sense to open up Representation and Drafting. Build Para's and Draft Defensive Rifles, swarm Hammi, cool.
After Nationhood, we should consider going for Rocketry. Apollo takes awhile to build. It's time to beeline?
PS: Final tests tonight. Should be back online doing fine tomorrow
Looks like some good thoughts and planning going on, I will respond in detail to recent posts later. Right now, I want to post about an idea I got while in the shower this morning. Cliche I know, but it really is a good time to think.
Atlantis is a problem because it produces barb raiders, and if we capture it most of the special buildings will be destroyed (the unique lighthouses get converted to regular lighthouses and we can not have two, etc.), reducing its value. But the city is also an opportunity!
The Plan
Capture Atlantis using some paras, some zeps, maybe a frigate or three if we get Chemistry and build any. Frigates not absolutely needed, but would improve odds for our paras by knocking down the culture defenses a bit.
Once the city comes out of revolt, assign ALL population as scientists! (Caste is required, obviously.) The city no longer has food to support its 30+ pop anyway, but it can only starve down 1 size per turn. During those turns, we get tons of beakers and GPP.
Some quick spreadsheet work gave the following, assuming the city starts at size 30 (it is a bit larger right now, but this is approximate):
After 10 turns, starving down to size 20, we will have had 255 scientist turns. That is 765 raw beakers and 1530 GPP -- enough to get 3 GS easily. Assuming roughly 1000 beakers per bulb, that is 3765 total beakers!
Add Rep, and we gain another 765 beakers for 4530 total beakers.
Add Pacifism (with a Confu missionary to ensure conversion before the city comes out of revolt), and we get another 765 GPP for at least 1 more GS, another thousand beakers - we are up to 5530 total beakers - in just 10 turns! That is 553 bpt, better than JH is producing!
Obviously, running the "starving for beakers" plan has diminishing returns. But with captured Atlantis having only water tiles to work, why not starve the city down some more?
Five more turns (city down to size 15) adds another 270 raw beakers (540 with Rep) and another 540 GPP (810 with Pacifism). Should be worth one more GS, roughly, giving 1270 or 1540 total beakers (with Rep) for the 5 turns. This would be about 254 bpt, or 308 bpt with Rep -- dropping significantly but still quite valuable.
Rep we could probably manage pretty easily. Pacifism would be more problematic given our diplo situation, but if we had Cristo we could swap back out easily and the religious difference penalties would disappear instantly. So friendly trade with HC would be disrupted, but only temporarily while we raked in the beakers.
We need to find more beakers to meet our targets for getting into space. A quick 7000 beakers over 15 turns out of Atlantis could really help, and we still have a size 15 city at the end.
We need to find more beakers to meet our targets for getting into space. A quick 7000 beakers over 15 turns out of Atlantis could really help, and we still have a size 15 city at the end.
This thing has some demishing return in the sense that we will generate less GPs elsewhere but H O L Y C R A P !!!
Pop 31 (without additional food from settled GMs or something) is its max pop.
Upon capture we lose one pop and upon comming out of revolt we lose another pop before we can actually use it. So we start at pop 29 I think?
Assuming we start at 29 and we generate 2 more GPs before we capture Atlantis and/or it starts to spawn GPs...
Atlantis would spawn at 536 (4) , 603 (8) , 670 (16) in 14 turns (not 10) getting to the next (804) is going to be "hard" or near impossible, even running specialists all the way down to 1 we get 801 gpp after 30 turns.
Assuming all 3 GS, 3 * 1200 beakers = 3600 beakers + 945 = 4545 / 14 = 324 beakers/turn
Add rep for 945 = 5490 / 14 = 392 beakers/turn
Add pacifism, 536 (3), 603 (5), 670 (8), 804 (13), 938 (24), Atlantis down to pop 6.
Lets take only up to 804, turn 13 to compare better with no Pacifism.
4 GS * 1200 = 4800 + 897 + 897 = 6594 / 13 = 507 beakers per turn
We would want to NOT get LM to spawn a GP inbetween here I think? Just get LM to as much GPP as possible as soon as possible without actually getting a GP, allowing for it to get an Additional GP afterwards. Alternatively we may generate an extra GP in LM either at 804. Atlantis then spawns at 938 turn 14.
4 GS * 1200 = 4800 + 945 + 945 = 6690 / 14 = 514 bpt
the Fifth would be born on turn 21 / 22 depending on if we get one from LM.
At turn 21: 6000 GS beakers + 2394 rep enhanced specialists = 8394 / 21 = 399, Atlantis size 8 (perfect size to work the 2 commerce coast)
Turn 11: 6000 GS beakers + 2442 rep enhanced specialists = 8442 / 22 = 383, Atlantis size 7
Offcourse with the extra GP from LM we get some beakers/turn less from Atlantis, but more beakers overall adding some 50 or so beakers, we would otherwize get after the starving of atlantis
Hap Hazard!!!!
Offcourse this is PRESUMING we burn the scienists on Bulbs (towards fission?), at 6 non-rep-settled-GS beakers at +250% = 21 per turn in JH we get 1200 beakers in 57 turns. Atleast some of these turns we will be in Rep for more beakers and offcourse settle the GS give a hammer too. So anything before turn 140 should be better to settle...
I had been considering whipping Atlantis for gold, but couldnt quite get it to "cash in" This is very nice... very nice indeed
Capturing Atlantis will cost us some paras, plus a couple of galleons for transports. Essentially, it is a very roundabout way of converting hammers (via military units) into beakers.
But it is a nice large chunk of beakers.
Another minor issue is the invasion -- our ships will prevent the city from working a bunch of 3 food water tiles, so ideally we need to move to the city and capture it in one turn for best results. Will cost us a few extra paras to attack full defenses, so several zeps will be helpful. The payoff should still be well worth it.
Some figures on attacking Atlantis, defending is a CG2, Hill2 LB with 25% fortification and 80% culture
Para **: 28% - no way (unpromoted)
Para C1: 58%
Para C1: 67%, once bombed with a Zeppelin
Para C1: 81%, once bombed with 2 Zeppelin (makes C3 Mace the first defender)
Para C1 Cover1: 62%
Para C2: 64% << Note C2 is better than Cover 1
Para C2: 72%, once bombed with Zeppelin
Para C2: 85%, once bombed with 2 Zeppelin
To bomb the 3 LBs twice we need 6 Zeppelins, luckily (someone verify) I think we can reach atlantis from JH (good thing we moved it one south....)
At 73% (bombed once with a Frigate)
Para C1: 59%
Para C1: 68%, once bombed with a Zeppelin
At 67% culture (2x Frigate)
Para C1: 69%, once bombed with a Zeppelin
At 60% culture (3x Frigate)
Para C1: 70%, once bombed with a Zeppelin
At +1% bombing with a Frigate, that doesnt seem worth the hammers.
Defending a C3 Maceman with 25% Fortification, 80% culture
Para C1: 66%
Para C1: 86%, once bombed with a zeppelin
Para C2: 71%
To also bomb the Macemen we need 3 more zeppelins, but that doesnt make much sense I think?
I would expect Atlantis to have a Granary, this granary should contain -some- food 20 + 2 * 30 = 80 * 67% = 53 * 50% = 26 food stored in the granary (or there abouts)
With say 6 Para's and 6 Zeppelins we should be able to handle
3 C3 Macemen (2 dead para's, 1 kills the Mace -bad RNG role at 66% odds to win-)
3 CG Longbows (1 dead Para, 2 kill LB -also less than average role at 81%, but not quite bad-)
3 Remaining Para's get C2 (heal a lot) and kill what is remaining. 1:1 should be safe on Para's as long as we can "take out" the LBs with 6 Zeppelins.
This leaves us wanting 3 zeppelins and 6 Para's
So what does this make the importance of capturing Atlantis? The sooner the better right??
With proper MM I can get 2 Galleons out of IT within 7 turns from now or at 6 turns once we fire the specialists at any point.
To get 6 Paratroopers together will take some time though, at 2 turns per paratrooper in JH and 1 every 5 in Sleeps its going to take 10 turns to get the Paratroopers, allowing IT to build the Obs first then 2 galleons in 11 turns.
We then need to find a place to build 3 Zeppelins, if we go after Atlantis first we can delay the Riffle in CiB, so it can build Zeppelin (6) Riffle(7)
SdL can insert a Zeppelin before Moaui
Sleeps can build Para > Zeppelin > Para
Or with just 1 hammer overflow JH can build 1 Zeppelin and allow Sleeps to build 2 Zeppelins.
The added combat 1 doesnt make much difference, so where ever we build the Zeppelin we build it there...
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), thus we can bulb Fission ...
)
This looks like an opportunity -- would he give us his gold to save 1 turn on CS. Why yes, yes he would! 160 gold for 1 turn of CS, thank you very much! 
Cha-ching!
How very nice of him.... 
Only choices are Hammi for resident or abstain, and he has enough votes anyway. So we vote for Hammi and get +2 diplo.
)
