SGOTM 09 - Misfits

haphazard1 · May 17, 2009

KaleLambiek said:
Because up to now we havent really needed them I think... Even now we only have 1 unhappy citizen that can be cured by a quick temple/Odeon.
On the other hand we are getting closer to the caps... the WB now after the Lab would probably be right timing (JIT)

We are not quite in time, although one citizen unhappy is not a big loss. But we definitely need more happiness as quickly as we can get it. I need to recheck the happiness limits at JH -- much more happiness is going to be needed there as we convert to cottages.

KaleLambiek said:
Beeline Industrialism for TANKS

Tanks require oil, though, so we also need Combustion and one of control of the Portugese oil or Plastics (to use our own oil). That is quite a bit of beakers away yet, so conquest of Portugal will be by paras.

I am thinking beeline Assembly Line, then probably work through the Steel->Railroad->Combustion path, then Industrialism and Plastics (for Three Gorges, and if necessary off-shore oil). But everything past starting Assembly Line will be after my turnset.

Industrialism does reveal aluminum, though, which is important information for us to have. So getting it a bit earlier might be worthwhile.

KaleLambiek said:
That is a given... Good thing is nothing upgrades to troopers, they do to riffles, but not to troopers. And with tanks on the Horizon vs Riffles its still fun and fast.
In particular since Tanks get CR

Very good point about paras -- they have to be built, and are fairly expensive. So even if we run into some later, they should be few in number.

KaleLambiek said:
I agree, our citizens will launch to space without the bliss of music

Poor deprived citizens. :lol:

Maybe we can pick it up in trade somewhere, if we are selling techs anyway for whatever cash can be found. We might want to build a cathedral if happiness is an issue (+incense, +2 hammers from AP), although it is unlikely. But having the option would be nice, if it does not cost us anything significant.

KaleLambiek said:
Only a scientist I would consider settling, the other two... GP = GA.
GE...

If we get a second GE, I would be tempted to use him for Cristo. Saves a bundle of hammers, which I am sure we can find uses for.

KaleLambiek said:
Our workers are busy doing more important things than railroads. We also have Airports which are better than rails to help move (new) troops.
And troopers can city hop using their drop facility... moving up to 6 tiles vs the rail 10.
Dont think we quite need IW available yet, lets get factories first... possibly even tanks first... Then worry about Steel>Railroad.

Good points, but we must have Railroads (for Combustion and maybe Plastics for oil) before tanks.

KaleLambiek said:
Selected cities only... Look at the spreadsheet it goes up FAST.
One thing I seem to have left out of the spreadsheet (I just thought of) is SoL for +1 Specialists in all cities concerned... Not that it will matter THAT much I think... yet back to the drawing board to see just exactly what effect SoL will or will not have...

Yes, we should have SoL within this turnset, or very shortly thereafter (depends on exact timing of cottage conversion).

KaleLambiek said:
Yes we can, but do we want/need to Depends ofcourse on how many units we are going to build there... For now though I think SdL has more important goals, among which but not exclusively and in no particular order....
- Non-builds
Versailles, Eifel, NE, maybe SoL for 1 or 2 turns depending on timing.
- Infra
Factory/Plant, Harbor, Airport

I am envisioning Sleeps carrying most of the military load, which is why I plan to finish the HE ASAP. SoL non-build...SoL pays off with Rep, so I think building it immediately is too important to delay it for non-builds. We have other multiplies wonders we can non-build, although with a little less control of timing.

On infra...harbors and airports. Are they worth the hammers?

Harbor...53 hammers, or 106 beaker-equivalent. Adds 2-3 cpt in most cities, and gets +110% (with FR and all 4 beaker buildings) for 4.2 - 6.3 bpt, for payback times of 16 - 25 turns. Also adds health from seafood. Conclusion: very much worth it.

Airport...167 hammers, or 334 beaker-equivalent. Adds one TR for 3 or 4 cpt in most cities; with +110% that is 6.3 - 8.4 bpt, for payback times of 40 - 53 turns. We are at turn 132, so that is pushing it close on breakeven. Costs 1 health, adds ability to airlift (especially valuable in IT). Conclusion: worth it, but not hugely so.

Additional positive: harbors and airports are synergystic.
Additional negative: more TRs will mean lower value TRs as we exhaust available foreign trade routes. Hard to say exactly how big this effect will be; if AIs shift to Mercantilism it could hurt us more.

Overall, harbors are definitely worth it, airports probably worth it and do provide airlift flexibility. I will revise the plan a bit to add them, but this will mean less non-build gold. And we are going to need more gold to keep our slider at full, especially if we do not get another GM.

KaleLambiek said:
LOL Hadnt even considered that... Moving from 2 grass farms to 2 plains forest, changing 3 food for 3 hammers.

At least until we get more happiness in the city.

KaleLambiek said:
Well.... The one trooper I build in the queue is to make the total of 12 after that we have 12 troopers and can make 2 stacks... Then we can make some Zeppelins or do some non-building in Sleeps as well untill we can/need to start HE for Tank building (16/17 turns away).

We only have 9 paras right now, 10 with the queued one in Sleeps. We are almost out of non-para units to handle garrison duty, as well, which will tie up more paras defending cities against recapture. With the need for Steel->Railroad->Combustion (and maybe Plastics) to get oil, tanks are a lot more than 16-17 turns away; in fact, we are going to need to conquer Joao (if we do) with paras.

I think it is important that we keep cranking out paras, at least 6-8 more, to replace losses and build our force up to 2-stack level. We may want to consider building some cheaper units as well (xbows, anyone?) to serve as back-line garrisons and free up paras to stay on the attack. Some of our lower hammer cities can crank a few of these out, as they will not need barracks.

KaleLambiek said:
Also getting a Barracks in SdL might enable it to non-build HE as well. Then adds to flexibility with building tanks.

HE is going to be finished too soon for much non-building. We need to maximize hammers from Sleeps.

KaleLambiek said:
Take note we are in GA, we will lose a lot of beakers once out of GA.
These techs total are 12619 beakers.
During the 6 turn GA we get 6 * 1235 = 7410 beakers
Leaving 5209 / ~850 beakers per turn = 6.12 turns

For a total of 12.12 turns to Assembly line.

You are correct...we should get through Steam Power as the GA ends, then Assembly Line will take more time.

KaleLambiek said:
Draw some Zeppelin fire keep alive and ready to transport our GM from LM.

Good idea, I will see if I can draw some fire.

KaleLambiek said:
You need to MM this to make sure you dont finish HE. Also perhaps build a trooper in 2 turns HE>NE>Trooper>SoL. Delays SoL 0.5 turns, may or may not be consequential.

SoL is 1005 hammers, at 134 hammers per turn...

Strike that... we need happyness to cover the chopping...
HE > NE > Odeon (1 turn + overflow) > SoL

Happiness, yes.

I will need to adjust plans in JH for the coming deforestation.

KaleLambiek said:
With 8 chops for 160 raw hammers * 2.75 = 440 hammers. Leaving 1005 - 440 = 565
565 / 134 = 4.21 turns... With the overflow from Odeon in just 4 turns
What to build after SoL?

That will help get SoL done fast, which is good -- lots of Rep beakers for us.

Need to update the plan for specialist changes as we revolt out of Caste...ack. Need to revise....

KaleLambiek said:
Why 7 total Merchants? OK... looking at the spreadsheet, pulling forward the GP from LM some turns = a good thing in particular with the upcomming polution of SoL...

Mostly just to get the extra GPP during the GA. We might need the flexibility later, and can always run fewer if we need to get another city to spawn first.

KaleLambiek said:
Lets try and level Para's at 12 or so...

Which is 3 more than we have now. And we need more, or else 12 paras plus more cheap units for garrison duty. Not sure about building these in Sleeps with HE...might end up generating overflow gold. Maybe if I alternate paras and xbows?

KaleLambiek said:
We need other infra too... if only to max out possible beakers even if SdL is to be geared to production... Harbor > Airport or so... Getting more beakers now vs more gold later? Hard choice...

Again... Commerce... we do want more beakers
Airport > Harbor?

See my calcs above. Harbors and airports, yes, but it means less non-build gold. We are going to run out of our current GM trade mission horde in the not-too-distant future, although city pillage and trade gold will help extend it.

KaleLambiek said:
How about theatres instead of Odeon's in TR and BT? Enabling GT?

A good point, I will go for theaters to unlock GT before odeons. Will have to check if I can get enough to unlock GT before SdL needs more happiness.

KaleLambiek said:
If we cannot support the population with the food in Sippar, run 1 or 2 turns all merchants... I dont care about the border pop if we cannot support the pop anyway...

Once we pop borders we can support the pop on coastal tiles. We might starve 1 pop for the turn to expand the border, but that should be all.

KaleLambiek said:
Why not windmill the Grass jungle hill? (1 west) then 1N Windmill Plains hill??
Dont see a priority for Milling the Desert hill??

Mostly because we can get a windmill up faster without needing to chop+mill. We need more improved tiles fast.

KaleLambiek said:
The pig is the only pig we have... It is connected via the river, no road needed on the pig!

Ah, you are correct. With that "road" sign up, I did not notice that little stub of a river. :lol:

KaleLambiek said:
NNW I think?

I was using "NW" in the generic sense.

KaleLambiek said:
I count that farm to be the last... Did I count the food right? Then again we will want to replace the Tundra hill, so maybe one more farm due east. Then we want preserves (for now) on the western forests to hope for further forest spread and preserves west of the BFC to help spread. Then Lumbermill the forests ultimatly.

OK, so the current farm and maybe 1 more, then preserves.

Sleepless said:
Some thoughts. We certainly need some more troops. If and that is a big if we don't get any more losses 3 or 4 would probably be enough. This is where I differ from everybody else. I would make the para in Sleep's a woodie 3 c1 medic. We need to get our troops back to optimal health asap. We can also let Ham suicide some troops against him as I doubt he would take much damage in the woods. If we do this remember to move the warrior out first though as the xp would be shared. Depending on odds etc we might be able to get anouther GG out of this war for settling anyway.

With the airship strikes, the healing is less useful, and getting 2 promos on units from Sleeps (soon with HE) will be quite valuable so I prefer the instructor. We will get another GG eventually, and a super-medic may be the right thing to do with that one.

Sleepless said:
Tanks. Remember we won't have tanks until plastics. The only oil is offshore of IT and we need plastics for the rig.

Agreed, tanks are a fair ways off yet. Of course, once we do get oil we can build fighters and bombers, if we feel the need for them.

Sleepless said:
WK. Is there any reason we shouldn't trade with him now? The +4 you traded with our worse enemy would be negated by +4 fair trade. Are we going to get any more techs from the AI. Imho this is very unlikely so I would grab his incense now.

WK is still the worse enemy of HC and Stalin, but it is a good question. The only way we will ever get another tech from the AI (other than Music, anyway) is if we gift them all 5-8 techs to get them to our current level. And if we do that, there will be no easy overseas wars for gold and wonders if we decide to do that later. In fact, the AIs might actually be able to threaten us, or do something annoying like build the UN and mess up our civics.

So Sleepless is correct that maybe we start trading with WK -- get more trade routes, get incense. We might end up annoying Stalin enough for him to declare on us, but is that really a problem?

ChrisFromLux said:
I am with Kale here. We don't need a Woodie3; Troopers in a forest are too strong for Hammi's units anyway.

If we use the General on a unit, it should be for a Super-Medic, to heal most injuries in 1 turn, even in enemy territory. But settling in SS with 5XP out of the box for every HE-unit we build is certainly the better choice!

OK, the general opinion seems to favor the instructor for 5 XP units from Sleeps.

I will get an updated plan posted in a bit. Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.

haphazard1 · May 17, 2009

OK, here is version 1.1 of my turnset plan. I aim to play either 7 or 8 turns -- enough time to capture Babylon and 1 additional city. (Unless we have enough paras for 2 stacks after Babylon, then 2 additional cities. :satan:

)

Main revisions were to add harbors, customs houses, and airports in place of Eiffel and Versailles non-builds. More commerce/gold later, but less non-build gold stored up. We may have gold problems in the next turnset. I did keep the HE and NE non-builds.

Major objectives

- Continue conquest of Hammi, taking Babylon and some other city (Akkad?)
- Convert to Emancipation on last turn of golden age, converting to cottages at JH at same time.

Great People

- GG in Sleeps is settled as an instructor for +2 XP, +3 bpt under Rep
- GE in JH is saved for Three Gorges
- Our next GP is due from JH in 5 turns, with the following odds:

Prophet 60% (to be saved for a later golden age)
Scientist 15% (to be settled in JH for beakers)
Engineer 25% (to be saved for a later golden age, or maybe used for Cristo?)

Research

- Printing Press (1 turn)
- Democracy (2 turns)
- Steam Power (3 turns, with a good bit of overflow)
- Assembly Line (will not finish this turnset)

Diplomacy

- Continue conquest of Hammi - show no mercy! :ar15:

- Stop snubbing WK - trade for his resources and cash; no AI will have any more techs we need
- Agree to pretty much any demand except Radio, changing civics, changing religion

Trades

Trade clam to WK for his sheep. Trade fur to WK for his incense.
Trade clam to Shaka for his 2 gpt. (Alternate - cancel fish for 6 gpt deal and hope to end up with 8 gpt.)

Military

Next target is Babylon, combining all our available troopers to capture it quickly.

T0 - Paras in Sippar and Dur-Kur will heal this turn, while the paras who can still move at Opis move into the city. The 7/10 XP trooper at Opis will attack the lone cat NW of the city after it is bombed by a zep; no need to let it damage multiple units, and one para will have to stay behind at Opis anyway.

Other zeps aitstrike the pike and 2 cats NE of Babylon. The para in Sleeps airlifts to Dur-Kur.

T1 - Fly one zep on recon between Babylon and Borsippa. If there are no Babylonian units which can reach Sippar, we drop the 2 paras from Sippar and the 3 from Dur-Kur next to Babylon, covering the two forest tiles 1S and 1S1E from the city. Other zeps aitstrike the units outside cities.

Depending on what the pike and 2 cats NE of Babylon do, either 2 or 3 or the available paras from Opis also drop next to Babylon, leaving the cat-killer to move into Opis and garrison the city (maybe with 1 other, if the city is threatened).

T2 - 7 or 8 paras attack Babylon, with air support. Unless Hammi moves units out of the city, it does not fall this turn.

T3 - Babylon falls.

T4 - Paras consolidate in Babylon.

T5 - Paras drop against whichever remaining Babylonian city is least defended. If we have enough paras (unlikely, unless cities have 3 or fewer defenders), we could form 2 stacks. But more likely just one stack.

T6 and later - continue taking cities, depending on Hammi's movements.

Other units: galleon in BT moves to starve Atlantis, smashes galleys if they come out. Western galleon will attempt to draw Hammi's airships into attacking it rather than our paras.

Sheila (spare phalanx in SdL) moves to garrison Opis. 3 XP xbow from BT also moves toward Hammi to garrison a soon-to-be-captured city (Babylon?).

Cities

JH - Put 1 turn of hammers into the HE, then 1 turn into the NE, then build theater (1 turn). Then Democracy will be finished, start the SoL.
LM - Assign three more merchants (two coastal tiles + lake tile), starving the city during the golden age for more GPP (and cash). Finish grocer (2 turns), then start bank.
Sleeps - Put 1 turn (with overflow) into NE as non-build cash. Then build HE (2 turns), then paras.
CiB - fire engineer to work the windmill. Finish NP (6 turns), then start NE.
SdL - Build harbor (1 turn), then start Customs House for 1 turn only. Then put 1 turn into NE. Then finish customs house (2 turns), then build airport (3 turns). Watch happiness, but try to avoid building an odeon. We will have 6 theaters by the end of the turnset, so Globe will be available.
IT - Finish lab (2 turns), then build WB (1 turn) for the whales. Then put 2 turns non-build hammers into NE. Build harbor (2 turns), then start customs house (3 turns).
BT - Finish forge (2 turns), then Confu temple (2 turns). Build theater (1 turn), then 1 turn into NE, then build Odeon. Once done, start courthouse.
TR - Finish Confu temple (1 turn), build courthouse (4 turns). Build theater (1 turn), then odeon (2 turns), then library (2 turns).
FH - Fire one scientist to work windmill. Finish lighthouse (1 turn), then build theater (3 turns). Start library.
GV - Build theater (1 turn) to get citizen working again, then finish courthouse (1 turn). Put 1 turn non-build into NE. Then build odeon (2 turns). Start library.
Dur-Kur - Fire merchant to work copper mine. Finish granary (3 turns), then start forge. (Or maybe Confu temple before forge?)
Sippar - In revolt (4 turns). Then build lighthouse, running at least 1 artist to get an immediate border pop. Any pop which can not work useful tiles, run merchants. After lighthouse, build forge.
Opis - In revolt (3 turns). Then build forge.

Cash Control

- Trade our map around to scoop up all non-WK cash available.
- Non-build the HE:
T0 - 1 turn in JH
T1 - build for real in Sleeps
- Non-build the NE:
T0 - Sleeps
T1 - JH
T2 - GV
T3-4 - IT
T5 - BT
T6 - build for real in CiB

- Keep eye on trade screens for tech sales (if we can get 100+ gold) and resource deals.

Workers

Thorrez (by TR) - move 2N to desert hill and windmill. Then move 3E1S to forested grass hill and windmill.
DeLorean - watermill current tile.~~, then move to the pig hill and road. (Several AIs would love to trade for another pig.)~~ Then move to jungle tile and cottage.
Drunken Sot (new name for worker 1S of GV) - finish cottage on current tile, then move to cottage plains NW of GV.
Jules Verne (by Sleeps) - finish farm, then another farm 1E.
Ursus (new name for worker 1N of BT) - finish cottage, then move 1W and cottage.
Obama (by CiB) - continues preserving the forests for NP.
Ham-handed (new name for captured worker in Opis) - move to marble (1 turn), move to forest 1N of CiB, then preserves. Just too dangerous around Opis right now.
Greenie (new name for worker by IT) - finish cottage, then move to chop forests outside IT fat cross. (Or could head to mainland for other tasks?)
All workers around JH - finish pre-cottaging, then mass-convert tiles to cottages as we revolt to Emancipation. Then send some to assist in preserving CiB, rest south to help around BT, Sleeps, GV, TR, FH.

Civics and Religion

Plan to revolt to Emancipation on last turn of golden age. No religious changes expected.

Specialists

When we swap to Emancipation on the last turn of the golden age, a lot of specialists will have to be reshuffled. We want to maintain our overall GPP rates as much as we can, so we will have to run whatever slots we have available.

LM - By time of swap will have 4 merchant slots, 2 scientist slots, 1 engineer slot, and 1 spy slot. After swap will run primarily merchants, adding an engineer and then scientists if more specialists are needed/desired.
FH - Has no slots currently. Will have theater in time for 2 artist slots at swap; extras will be put to working the 3-food lake tiles. Once library is complete, add 2 scientists.

Stopping Conditions

- Any really ugly surprises in war with Hammi which make current objectives impossible
- Being declared upon by anybody

Depending on comments and agreement from the team, I will aim to play sometime on Monday (about 20 hours from now). Your thoughts and suggestions are most welcome!

ChrisFromLux · May 17, 2009

haphazard1 said:
OK, here is version 1.1 of my turnset plan.

Looks good :goodjob:

haphazard1 said:
Trade clam to Shaka for his 2 gpt. (Alternate - cancel fish for 6 gpt deal and hope to end up with 8 gpt.)

That is the trade I did during my turnset, no? Would mean it cannot be canceled for another ~6 turns?

haphazard1 said:
Western galleon will attempt to draw Hammi's airships into attacking it rather than our paras.

That's why I moved it there ... won't draw more than 1 Airship per turn, but that means 1 less Trooper injured. And it should work, as the AI loves to bombard ships, for some reason!

KaleLambiek · May 18, 2009

haphazard1 said:
Good points, but we must have Railroads (for Combustion and maybe Plastics for oil) before tanks.

What I am saying, Railroads is not priority #1...

haphazard1 said:
Yes, we should have SoL within this turnset, or very shortly thereafter (depends on exact timing of cottage conversion).

Well with some management we can delay SoL start by a turn and not delay it... To late now to manage it... but nicely possible using overflow. Agree we want it asap.

haphazard1 said:
On infra...harbors and airports. Are they worth the hammers?

Harbor...53 hammers, or 106 beaker-equivalent. Adds 2-3 cpt in most cities, and gets +110% (with FR and all 4 beaker buildings) for 4.2 - 6.3 bpt, for payback times of 16 - 25 turns. Also adds health from seafood. Conclusion: very much worth it.

Airport...167 hammers, or 334 beaker-equivalent. Adds one TR for 3 or 4 cpt in most cities; with +110% that is 6.3 - 8.4 bpt, for payback times of 40 - 53 turns. We are at turn 132, so that is pushing it close on breakeven. Costs 1 health, adds ability to airlift (especially valuable in IT). Conclusion: worth it, but not hugely so.

This is not completely right IMHO. At some point we are going to have enough cash (I hope) to run 100% all game. This point we havent reached yet... but... at some point I hope we do. At that point we start building research = 1:1, as long as we convert better than 1:1 we build them IMHO.

haphazard1 said:
I will revise the plan a bit to add them, but this will mean less non-build gold. And we are going to need more gold to keep our slider at full, especially if we do not get another GM.

Yes less non-build gold, but more beakers. Hopefully we wont need the gold

Right now though, if we put every city -baring Sleeps and JH- to gold building we would get +56 GPT... thought this is during a GA... We will also have SoL soon for ~8 merchants +24gpt... non-build gold is icing on the cake IMHO, while beakers = commerce are TOP priority I think.

Also we have the grocer and bank comming in LM for 10 and 20 GPT

haphazard1 said:
I think it is important that we keep cranking out paras, at least 6-8 more, to replace losses and build our force up to 2-stack level. We may want to consider building some cheaper units as well (xbows, anyone?) to serve as back-line garrisons and free up paras to stay on the attack. Some of our lower hammer cities can crank a few of these out, as they will not need barracks.

I was counting on building 2 in JH, but that doesnt seem possible

XBows would be nice... but where do we slot them in?

I think Assembly line obsoleets XBows? Or does it?

haphazard1 said:
Which is 3 more than we have now. And we need more, or else 12 paras plus more cheap units for garrison duty. Not sure about building these in Sleeps with HE...might end up generating overflow gold. Maybe if I alternate paras and xbows?

Also need Zeppelins... And getting overflow gold at 100% bonus is not a bad deal!

haphazard1 said:
Once we pop borders we can support the pop on coastal tiles. We might starve 1 pop for the turn to expand the border, but that should be all.

On 1 food coastal tiles... I count 4 food Clams 2 food CC 2 food Watermill = 8 food size 2
5 tiles 1 food = 5 food total, for 13 food.
7 pop needs 14 food to feed?? Or am I missing something?

haphazard1 said:
Mostly because we can get a windmill up faster without needing to chop+mill. We need more improved tiles fast.

Desert means improvements take longer to build we only gain 2 turns vs the grass hill (and 1 turn moving)
But we are going to be chopping anyway (the second grass hill). I either case if we go Grass or plains hills... they either give +1 food or +1 hammer....

haphazard1 said:
Ah, you are correct. With that "road" sign up, I did not notice that little stub of a river.

This is why we plan and discuss in detail

haphazard1 said:
With the airship strikes, the healing is less useful, and getting 2 promos on units from Sleeps (soon with HE) will be quite valuable so I prefer the instructor. We will get another GG eventually, and a super-medic may be the right thing to do with that one.

And with 2 promotions he is his own medic, healing 50% upon promoting

haphazard1 said:
WK is still the worse enemy of HC and Stalin, but it is a good question. The only way we will ever get another tech from the AI (other than Music, anyway) is if we gift them all 5-8 techs to get them to our current level. And if we do that, there will be no easy overseas wars for gold and wonders if we decide to do that later. In fact, the AIs might actually be able to threaten us, or do something annoying like build the UN and mess up our civics.

So Sleepless is correct that maybe we start trading with WK -- get more trade routes, get incense. We might end up annoying Stalin enough for him to declare on us, but is that really a problem?

We already have OBs with WK, this doesnt constitute trading.... Starting resource trades will trigger "stop trading with" demands/requests causing relations to deteriorate fast.

KaleLambiek · May 18, 2009

About the GM from LM, doing 7/7/7/6/6/6 will not hurt our GPs at all, but does preserve 9 food for future growth.

haphazard1 said:
Main revisions were to add harbors, customs houses, and airports in place of Eiffel and Versailles non-builds. More commerce/gold later, but less non-build gold stored up. We may have gold problems in the next turnset. I did keep the HE and NE non-builds.

Custom Houses... Didnt consider those

At a 120 hammers with +1 commerce on 4 traderoutes 30 turns to pay off as well as the added build time... Build queues are getting quite full ....

haphazard1 said:
Trades

Trade clam to WK for his sheep. Trade fur to WK for his incense.

Not sure about trading with WK due to the "stop trading" requests... Losing the traderoutes too if we think we want to stop... If we do trade, what is wrong with Fish for Incense?

haphazard1 said:
Cities

JH - Put 1 turn of hammers into the HE, then 1 turn into the NE, then build theater (1 turn). Then Democracy will be finished, start the SoL.

Remember HE needs some MM not to finish in JH!!! Change the Engineer for a Scientist for 1 turn

What to build post SoL?? Troopers? R&R?

haphazard1 said:
LM - Assign three more merchants (two coastal tiles + lake tile), starving the city during the golden age for more GPP (and cash). Finish grocer (2 turns), then start bank.

7,7,7,6,6,6

haphazard1 said:
Sleeps - Put 1 turn (with overflow) into NE as non-build cash. Then build HE (2 turns), then paras.
CiB - fire engineer to work the windmill. Finish NP (6 turns), then start NE.

We may want to put as much non-build int NE as possible?? before starting it in CiB.

haphazard1 said:
SdL - Build harbor (1 turn), then start Customs House for 1 turn only. Then put 1 turn into NE. Then finish customs house (2 turns), then build airport (3 turns). Watch happiness, but try to avoid building an odeon. We will have 6 theaters by the end of the turnset, so Globe will be available.

This whole +% traderoute commerce thing is a farce though!!
i.e. SdL is getting -base- 1.1, 1, 1 Traderoutes at +290% traderoute yield.
Which means now: 3.19,2.9, 2.9
+50% Harbor: 3.75, 3.4, 3.4 (+2 commerce)
+100% Customs: 4.29, 3.9, 3.9 (+1 commerce)

Now adding 2 pop to SdL = adding 2 * 5% for pop on our side would make it 3.3, 3, 3
+50% 3.85, 3.5, 3.5 (0 gain)
+100% 4.4, 4, 4 (+3 commerce)

i.e. A harbor without customs is near useless

baring the health boost... +3 commerce (+6 beakers) for 173 hammers = 29 turns
If we marbalize the hammers to 346 gold that is 58 turns

That is cutting it pretty damn close... Perhaps your gold building was better? :crazyeye:

haphazard1 said:
TR - Finish Confu temple (1 turn), build courthouse (4 turns). Build theater (1 turn), then odeon (2 turns), then library (2 turns).

TR has 2 happy to spare and get 2 more from temple and theatre (dye) Perhaps Lib > Uni > Odeon? Or atleast put Odeon of untill we actually need it JIT?

haphazard1 said:
FH - Fire one scientist to work windmill. Finish lighthouse (1 turn), then build theater (3 turns). Start library.

~~What no granary for poor FH?~~ Oh wait... we have to keep the specialists at work

haphazard1 said:
Dur-Kur - Fire merchant to work copper mine. Finish granary (3 turns), then start forge. (Or maybe Confu temple before forge?)

Perhaps the plains farm instead of the copper mine? Get to max pop ASAP.
Also temple first, same hammers, cheaper and + happy.

haphazard1 said:
Sippar - In revolt (4 turns). Then build lighthouse, running at least 1 artist to get an immediate border pop. Any pop which can not work useful tiles, run merchants. After lighthouse, build forge.

Please check this, but 13 food is not enough to feed 7 pop.

haphazard1 said:
Thorrez (by TR) - move 2N to desert hill and windmill. Then move 3E1S to forested grass hill and windmill.

Already discussed

haphazard1 said:
DeLorean - watermill current tile.~~, then move to the pig hill and road. (Several AIs would love to trade for another pig.)~~ Then move to jungle tile and cottage.

Erm Cottage??? What pop is going to work it? Perhaps the (other) riverside otherwize preserves while we run Enviro that is a happy...

KaleLambiek · May 18, 2009

ChrisFromLux said:
That's why I moved it there ... won't draw more than 1 Airship per turn, but that means 1 less Trooper injured. And it should work, as the AI loves to bombard ships, for some reason!

Remember for it to draw fire, it must heal every turn and preferably be coastal. At -20% it is less powerfull than a Caravel..

ChrisFromLux · May 18, 2009

KaleLambiek said:
Remember for it to draw fire, it must heal every turn and preferably be coastal. At -20% it is less powerfull than a Caravel..

No problem! Just have it sit somewhere on the southern coast of Babylon, outside Hammurabi's culture but inside reach of his Airships. Even if it doesn't completely heal every turn, it can still be damaged a bit every turn.

Hammurabi only has 1 ship, IIRC, a Galley in his western city, and we don't need our Galleon anytime soon, except if we get another Great Merchant. No danger ...

JerichoHill · May 18, 2009

Okay, I reviewed the turnset plan, and I think I like it. I would like to see SoL built during this set, and Babylon taken and the war with Ham winding down.

FYI for the team: On Friday, I depart to St. Maarten for 2 weeks of vacation at our home near there. I will still be chiming in once a day and may still be able to take my turnsets, but I won't know the logistics until I am down there. I've needed this vacation!

ChrisFromLux · May 18, 2009

JerichoHill said:
FYI for the team: On Friday, I depart to St. Maarten for 2 weeks of vacation at our home near there. I will still be chiming in once a day and may still be able to take my turnsets, but I won't know the logistics until I am down there. I've needed this vacation!

I guess you earned that vacation!

Have fun!!! :beer:

KaleLambiek · May 18, 2009

Me said:
This whole +% traderoute commerce thing is a farce though!!
ie SdL is getting -base- 1.1, 1, 1 Traderoutes at +290% traderoute yield.
Which means now: 3.19,2.9, 2.9
+50% Harbor: 3.75, 3.4, 3.4 (+2 commerce)
+100% Customs: 4.29, 3.9, 3.9 (+1 commerce)

Now adding 2 pop to SdL = adding 2 * 5% for pop on our side would make it 3.3, 3, 3
+50% 3.85, 3.5, 3.5 (0 gain)
+100% 4.4, 4, 4 (+3 commerce)

ie A harbor without customs is near useless baring the health boost... +3 commerce (+6 beakers) for 173 hammers = 29 turns
If we marbalize the hammers to 346 gold that is 58 turns

That is cutting it pretty damn close... Perhaps your gold building was better?

There is a mistake in this somehow... actually 2 mistakes...
Which means now: 4.29,3.9, 3.9
+50% Harbor: 4.84, 4.4, 4.4 (+2 commerce)
+100% Customs: 5.94, 5.4, 5.4 (+3 commerce)

Offcourse a Airport adds +1 commerce to the Harbor, and +1 to the Customs...

Adding 2 pop in SdL would make it 4.4, 4, 4
+ 50% 4.95, 4.5, 4.5 (0 gain :mad:

, gotta love the rounding!)
+100% 6.05, 5.5, 5.5 (+4 commerce)

The airport in this case gets +1 commerce overall (on top of the 3 of the stand-alone airport). If the originating city goes over 10 pop (no way to control that) and we grow 2 pop compared to current (in SdL).
Then we get 1.1 base + 450% = 6.05 for all traderoutes or +3 with the airport, assuming the originating cities grows to 11 pop.
4 Commerce gain...
173/4 = 43.25 turns
173/8.4 = 20.5 turns (+110% beakers)
346/8.4 = 41.2 turns (Marbalized gold +110% beakers)

Still 9 commerce or 18.9 beakers (+110%) for Airport (4) /Harbor (0) /Customs (5) per turn...
In 40 turns, to allow them to be build in ~20 turns, 18.9 * 40 = 756 beakers
In 2 cities (SdL/IT)? 2 * 756 = 1512 = 1.25 turn of research... (currently)... should be a 75%? turn by end game? (doing 2000 beakers per turn at the end?)

Sleepless · May 18, 2009

Just another couple of thoughts.

Globe Theatre? If we build it shouldn't it go into FH instead of SdL. Certainly FH needs a couple of workshops asap as well to help build its infra faster. Then can be changed to cottages.

Airports? With our having a lot more cities soon

we will run out of foreign trade routes so more important to go in coastal cities rather than inland ones for the improved trade income. There might come a time when it will be worth building another offshore city for the continental routes. Especially if we attack Joao.

Happiness? Another reason for building the Cristo earlier. If we want we can swap back into OR get a few missionaries out then back to FR. We can also swap between conf and nsr at will as well so 25% building bonus would come in handy at the same time.

KaleLambiek · May 18, 2009

Globe in FH vs SdL...
For SdL max out Moaui... FH with its food is an option... But what is our gain?
I count 12 land tiles we want to definatly work later on... Pop 12 should be quite easy to support, even now we have 10 pop there without a Theatre or Odeon or Hitsingles/Broadcast tower...
What would be the benifit of Globe in FH? I can be persuaded, but ... for now I dont see the benifit.

Off continent city... There is a 1 tile island of the coast due SW of SdL. Building it may well prove worth while... We havent run out of traderoutes yet, but in particular if we start conquesting WK and/or HC.... we will get short on traderoutes... Dont know if the added city will pay off though...
An added traderoute is an added traderoute, though if it is only 2 commerce.... How much will that yield? Good point... When will that point be reached? Dont know... Are you arguing for or against Airports Sleepless??

I would prefer to stay in FR the rest of the game for +10% beakers. If we run out of cash maybe we can run a few turn 0% to build cash in OR to go back to FR for research...

We are paying 42 distance maintenance now... FP in Babylon will help contain that...

KaleLambiek · May 18, 2009

We currenly have 1567 gold at - 143g
We have 5 more Hammi cities to conquer for 500 more gold.

This should carry us 10 turns (atleast) at which time we know if we have the GM from LM or not and/or how much gold building we need to do to stay at 100%. With the GM we will have another 1500 gold and/or capturing more cities (from Joao who has meantime build Versailles!) should keep us afloat.

Together with the 30 GPT from LM (Grocer/bank) and non-builds... -we have some 300 gold in non-builds planned right now- ... and some "map gold" from the AI...
We should be good for I think atleast 20 turns, that is without the GM from LM.... erm I hope

haphazard1 · May 18, 2009

Out of all this discussion, what is the verdict on harbors/customs houses/airports? I think harbors are worthwhile at least, not being all that many hammers and adding health (SdL will need more health as it continues to grow).

Exhausting available foreign trade routes is a concern, but the assignment is supposed to provide the best overall result including TR-boosting effects. If any cities get shorted, it will be inland, smaller cities.

On the Globe in SdL or FH, how is FH supposed to actually build the Globe? It is going to take 7-8 turns in SdL with all those hammers...FH would never get it built in time to be useful.

Kale and Sleepless, good points about tile improvements at FH. Do we want a couple of workshops there? Some preserves? The theater (and soon after an odeon), plus more resource deals for incense, hit singles, whale should keep it happy enough for the near future.

No one has objected loudly on the idea of trading with WK, although there were some worries expressed about the diplo impact. I can certainly hold off on this, although the incense would be useful if WW continues to rise. Hopefully taking Babylon and knocking out the SoZ effect will keep that under control.

Have a good time on your vacation, JH! Drop us a note from time to time if you can, just to let us know how much fun you are having. :lol:

General opinion on the plan seems to be a go. Wish me luck!

Mastiff_of_Ar · May 18, 2009

KaleLambiek said:
Off continent city... There is a 1 tile island of the coast due SW of SdL. Building it may well prove worth while... We havent run out of traderoutes yet, but in particular if we start conquesting WK and/or HC.... we will get short on traderoutes... Dont know if the added city will pay off though...

If we want a 1 tile island... why not :ar15:

Atlantis?

haphazard1 · May 18, 2009

OK, turnset done, played 8 turns. Not everything went as planned, but mostly good news.

T132 (inherited turn)

- Cancelled and resigned fish deal with Shaka, boosting from 6 to 8 gpt
- Trade spare clam to Stalin for sheep
- Sold our map around for 245 gold (Shaka would only give 75 of his 80)
- Stalin has enough on his hands...probably WK, but who knows?
- Settle the GG in Sleeps, make other adjustments as discussed

T133

- Printing Press in, start Democracy
- Hammi revolts to Theo, moves a ton of units into Babylon.

This would become a repeating theme, unfortunately.
- Our valiant galleon sinks one barb galley by Atlantis; the other barb attacks and withdraws. We limp home, badly damaged.

T134

- Confu spreads in IT

- Sell Aesthetics to Stalin for 70 gold, as everyone else already knew it.
- Joao has Music now. HC is still researching Rifling, WK's tech now visible as Feudalism
- Our paras kill 6 defenders in Babylon with no losses. 6 more left, but 4 other Hammi units are near the city.

T135

- Democracy in, Steam Power started
- HE completed in Sleeps, start more paras. We need them badly.
- Babylon up to 11 defenders, as Hammi keeps shuffling more and more units into the city.

Kill 4 more, but our paras are damaged. Some are healing. I am moving the medic xbow from near SdL to the stack to speed healing.

T136

- Got 132 gold from the HE non-build in JH.

- Taoism is spread to JH by Joao - thanks!
- A forest grows west of LM, we can put another preserve if we want.
- Final GP odds in JH:

Prophet 56%
Artist 4%
Scientist 15%
Engineer 25%

- Babylon gets 2 more reinforcements, up to 9. We lose 1 para at 95% odds, not even scratching the sword (!!!). :mad:

T137

- Shaka asks us to declare on WK. I agree, as we are not trading with him (I have held off due to the worries expressed about diplo) and Stalin has enough on his hands and will probably join.
- Steam Power complete, start Assembly Line. Coal is revealed in the fat cross at JH (should we mine? or cottage as planned?) and between SdL and TR. Worker sent to get it ready, although we may not want to connect it just yet due to health reasons.
- Sell Drama around for 150 gold (Stalin 40, Joao 30, Shaka 80 + his map)
- JH spawns a prophet, who is put to sleep to wait for a golden age.
- Joao got a GM. We need to watch and see if we can trade for gold if he uses it for a trade mission.
- This is the last turn of the golden age, so I revolt to Emancipation and start converting to cottages at JH. Not all can be converted, as we are struggling with happiness due to WW. But I convert as many forests as possible, and also the watermill and windmills. We are getting 1341 bpt this final GA turn.

- Babylon further reinforces up to 13 (!!!) defenders. All paras healing, no attacks this turn.

T138

- A spy destroyed progress on the forge in Opis.
- An AP vote to stop the war against Hammi: needs 138 of 224 to pass. I vote no, as we should have enough to block.
- Cancel and resign fur deal with Joao (7 to 9 gpt) and corn deal with HC (4 to 6 gpt).
- HC has finished Rifling, and is now researching Rocketry!

If we can get him to trade it...thousands of beakers saved. We may need to do something to get him back to friendly. I check if he will join the war on WK, but he will not.
- WK is now working on Guilds.
- Babylon at 13 defenders; we get 7 kills, but lose two paras at 89% and 88% odds.

T139

- The AP vote fails. Needed 140 of 226, got 106 (92 Hammi, 4 Joao, 10 Shaka). Our 120 votes were for No, obviously.
- WW increasing steadily, JH and GV with 1 unhappy, SdL with 2.
- Babylon reinforced to 9 defenders, get 4 kills.

T140

- Assembly Line finished, start Steel. No beakers invested yet, can change.
- LM spawns a great merchant (88% odds)! :woohoo:

He begins journey to SdL to meet our western galleon, which stops drawing fire and heads to SdL.
- Joao's GM is spotted near FH, heading north! Watch every turn, and hope to trade for his cash. :please:

- A GG is born in Sleeps from the fighting at Babylon. Maybe a super-medic? We were badly slowed by the need to heal in enemy territory, even with a regular medic.
- Babylon has 6 defenders...and all are killed with no further losses! :hammer:

Oddly, there is no pop-up about gold. :confused:

Just straight into the "what do you want to build here" screen. I hope we got some gold. :confused:

- WW drops from 393 (just before the city fell) to 222 after capturing the SoZ. Next turn some of the WW will disappear. It is hitting 5 cities at the moment.

A few items:

- We have EP going to Shaka to try to see his research. Once we can, shift EP again.
- CiB has 6 preserves up. I have moved an xbow to cover a worker to build another on the border with Hammi. Wiping out Akkad would be useful so we can finish the last 2 safely.
- A couple workers are unmoved, one on the JH coal so we can decide what to do with it.
- The other coal is roaded and 1 turn from a mine. We may want to wait until coal is needed, to avoid health hits from factories.
- Even with our paras, Shaka has more power than we do. No reports of WK losing cities yet, though.

Sorry for the slow progress against Hammi, but he was throwing more and more units into Babylon. Maybe I should have built one or two trebs to reduce the defenses, but I kept Sleeps building paras (and 1 rifle to defend Opis and free up a para). Our force needs a turn or three to heal, but we will then have plenty to hit Hammi's remaining cities.

Mastiff is now UP to continue the war and finish the SoL.
Sleepless is on deck.

Save is uploaded. I will attach the logs in following posts.

haphazard1 · May 18, 2009

Turnset log:

Spoiler :

Mastiff_of_Ar · May 18, 2009

Looks like a nice set! And... I have the save.

Couple questions:

- Any troop strength info? Particularly at Akkad
- Have we thought about a WB SSE of BT for the fish? To trade.
- And should we whip a few things out in Babylon?

MF

haphazard1 · May 18, 2009

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
Looks like a nice set! And... I have the save.

Couple questions:

- Any troop strength info? Particularly at Akkad

Afraid not. The zeps have been busy bombing Babylon. Most recent view was a couple turns back, maybe 4 units there (LB, mace, pike, cat). Similar for the city west of Babylon.

But Hammi was shifting units steadily from his other cities into Babylon, all through the turnset. Some of that was new production, but at least some was also existing troops. So I think there will not be more then 4-5 units per city, and maybe not even that much.

Get our paras into Babylon to heal with the medic (and maybe super-medic if we decide to use the GG for that), and in 2-3 turns we should be ready to take more cities. Hammi's 6 zeps were a major pain, but they were destroyed in Babylon.

So even if he builds one or two new ones, the constant airstrikes should be a thing of the past.

Also, be aware Hammi has a caravel NW of Sippar. Do not let it close on and sink our galleon, especially once the GM is on board!

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
- Have we thought about a WB SSE of BT for the fish? To trade.

I thought about it during the turnset, but where to build it? All our coastal cities are rather busy with more important builds. If we can find time/hammers for it, sure. More trade bait is always handy.

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
- And should we whip a few things out in Babylon?

We are running Emancipation, so no whipping.

Would be handy for Sippar as well -- we may want to consider running merchants and starving it down further. The current pop on coastal tiles is not worth much. But if we take out the city west of Babylon, that should finally free up land tiles for it to work. So keeping the pop for the (hopefully) near future is probably best.

KaleLambiek · May 19, 2009

haphazard1 said:
Out of all this discussion, what is the verdict on harbors/customs houses/airports? I think harbors are worthwhile at least, not being all that many hammers and adding health (SdL will need more health as it continues to grow).

Basicaly, accoording to my calculation above... Baring the health the harbor IS useless

SdL is going to grow 2 pop fast at which point the harbor is useless...

haphazard1 said:
Exhausting available foreign trade routes is a concern, but the assignment is supposed to provide the best overall result including TR-boosting effects. If any cities get shorted, it will be inland, smaller cities.

at 2 commerce +110% = 4.2 beakers = 40 turns to pay off a Airport if it only gives 2 commerce. That is with NON-marble gold, marble-gold: 71 turns

On settling extra cities, if we wanted to do so... I think we should have done so earlier... i.e. the city SW of IT.
Right now I think we best take Australia of HC's hands to form our off-continent cities.

haphazard1 said:
On the Globe in SdL or FH, how is FH supposed to actually build the Globe? It is going to take 7-8 turns in SdL with all those hammers...FH would never get it built in time to be useful.

Kale and Sleepless, good points about tile improvements at FH. Do we want a couple of workshops there? Some preserves? The theater (and soon after an odeon), plus more resource deals for incense, hit singles, whale should keep it happy enough for the near future.

True FH is going to take a long while to build it.... If anything we want cottages now I think... we want commerce/beakers... We do need to balance that out with some Preserves as the happyness requires. Also we should try and mix-and-match the hills in, to eat up the food there. Later on we can surely workshop it all the way possibly build a Space part or two and/or Space Elevator.

haphazard1 said:
No one has objected loudly on the idea of trading with WK, although there were some worries expressed about the diplo impact. I can certainly hold off on this, although the incense would be useful if WW continues to rise. Hopefully taking Babylon and knocking out the SoZ effect will keep that under control.

I am slightly concerned about the - diplo we will get due to "stop trade" requests. These we do not want to say no to, but we cannot say yes either... because we will lose our 3 commerce traderoutes to WK.

On the other hand if the Incense keeps our citizens working... do it... but unly JIT I think?

haphazard1 said:
Have a good time on your vacation, JH! Drop us a note from time to time if you can, just to let us know how much fun you are having.

Yes have a good layover JH.

haphazard1 said:
General opinion on the plan seems to be a go. Wish me luck!

Think so... Good luck!

Mastiff_of_Ar said:
If we want a 1 tile island... why not Atlantis?

Because of atlantis' plenty national wonders it has acculated loads of culture. Barbs you cannot kill, unlike your average AI. As a result you have high "we want our motherland" factors as shown in a test by me some pages ago.

This would make for 20 or so "motherland" :mad:

, along with your say pop 10 :mad:

that requires 30 happyness to grow to pop 10.... Or even 20 happy to have a pop 1, I have no clue how we would do that?? :confused:

haphazard1 said:
- Our valiant galleon sinks one barb galley by Atlantis; the other barb attacks and withdraws. We limp home, badly damaged.

But atleast a live

haphazard1 said:
T136
- Got 132 gold from the HE non-build in JH.
- Taoism is spread to JH by Joao - thanks!

Now build Versailles and the Shrine for us Joao

haphazard1 said:
- A forest grows west of LM, we can put another preserve if we want.

Cottages as far as the eye can see!

haphazard1 said:
- Shaka asks us to declare on WK. I agree, as we are not trading with him (I have held off due to the worries expressed about diplo) and Stalin has enough on his hands and will probably join.

Our traderoutes :cry:

, I wouldnt have agreed... War on our terms not AI terms IMHO.

haphazard1 said:
- Steam Power complete, start Assembly Line. Coal is revealed in the fat cross at JH (should we mine? or cottage as planned?) and between SdL and TR. Worker sent to get it ready, although we may not want to connect it just yet due to health reasons.

Cottages as far as the eye can see! in particular since we have a second source already. Coal I think only produced unhealthy with factories and industrial park right? Whats the problem?

haphazard1 said:
- JH spawns a prophet, who is put to sleep to wait for a golden age.

Not to bad

haphazard1 said:
- WW drops from 393 (just before the city fell) to 222 after capturing the SoZ. Next turn some of the WW will disappear. It is hitting 5 cities at the moment.

Heavy losses, but finaly... How do you read that WW?? and what does it mean?? Is it going to drop roughly 50% just because we capture SoZ? Sounds strange?? Once build WW shouldnt go away IMHO untill the war is over, or??

Perhaps it would have been more effective if we had taken Akkad first?? Something to try in a replay?

Will study the save in more detail later.

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