Civ5 - shipping with Steamworks * plus Digital Deluxe Edition

Nick Danger said:

By themselves they're pretty innocuous things, but whether that's true of the whole can't be said when it's not known what the 'whole' is -- thus my simple questions:

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Valve are usually pretty good at communicating with fans. Try emailing some staff (Gabe for instance often replies to emails) and asking. You're more likely to get an answer if you phrase your questions in less accusatory ways though.

Eejit said:

...You're more likely to get an answer if you phrase your questions in less accusatory ways though.

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Below is what I said, which you responded to. What/which part is to you in some way 'accusatory'? [and how 'accusatory' would you deem acceptable? <-- "That's a joke son, a joke I say!" -- Foghorn Leghorn 1953, preceeded by Kenny Delmar ("Senator Beauregard Claghorn") in Fred Allen's 1940s radio show]

"By themselves they're pretty innocuous things, but whether that's true of the whole can't be said when it's not known what the 'whole' is -- thus my simple questions:
-what information (aggregate, individual, and personally identifiable) is collected
-who is it shared with
-what do the third parties do with it
-exactly what things does steam do (ie -- the Valve Anti-Cheat which "...works by scanning the users system for cheats while your game is running. It works a lot like a virus scanner, and has a database of known cheats to detect." is one process that's running, what others are there? How much bandwidth will be used in a 'typical' civ5 game? etc. "

Thanks!

2K Elizabeth said:

Coyote -

A lot of your questions are rather in depth and I'd need to do more research to find out. If you want to see our privacy policy in general, it's right here: http://www.take2games.com/privacy/

As for the Valve questions, I'll look into them, but you might also want to go to Valve directly and have that discussion with them, as they will be able to tell you their own company policies. In the meantime, a Steam FAQ is in the works.

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There's something I'm kinda confused about (not for the first time!). You said on the 14th:
"I know what Steam can collect for you (as you do, it's publicly available what they can collect!)...".

If you know what steam can collect for us (or rather from us), why do you have to look into with Valve to answer the basic questions of what things steam does and the information it collects from us? What am I missing/misunderstanding?

Thanks!

PS where is it publicly available all of what they collect from us? I've found a few of their pages, such as their Privacy Policy and API Overview but neither provide all they collect.

Nick Danger said:

There's something I'm kinda confused about (not for the first time!). You said on the 14th:
"I know what Steam can collect for you (as you do, it's publicly available what they can collect!)...".

If you know what steam can collect for us (or rather from us), why do you have to look into with Valve to answer the basic questions of what things steam does and the information it collects from us? What am I missing/misunderstanding?

Thanks!

PS where is it publicly available all of what they collect from us? I've found a few of their pages, such as their Privacy Policy and API Overview but neither provide all they collect.

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You guys are asking for pretty specific details about Steam beyond what I know - their collection and privacy policies are what are publicly available (what you linked) and give a good overview of the scope of what they require, what is optional, and what they monitor. For those of you who want more, I have to ask Valve.

I didn&#8217;t buy Empire: Total War or its expansion because it had a Steam account requirement and I won&#8217;t buy Civilization V for the same reason.

However, I may have erroneously made the assumption that &#8220;strategy gamers&#8221; are, for the most part, more informed, not as easily manipulated, and more self educated than the average gamer, since it is their passion for the &#8220;thinking man&#8217;s (woman&#8217;s) game&#8221; that sets them apart. I assumed that the &#8220;strategy gamer&#8221; would read and understand everything about this type of DRM automatically due to their inquisitive and problem solving nature and would naturally come to the same conclusion. The primary goal of this type of DRM is a scam used to wrestle control away from the consumer and eliminate their rights. Oh, and Profit! Disguising it as anything else is called deception. It is obvious to me that, the product they are selling is clearly inferior.

The nature of business is profit. They will push until they cannot push anymore in order to discover what the market will bear, then they will wait till the dust settles before they start the whole cycle over again. They cannot help it, for that is the nature of successful business. Profit, Profit, and more Profit. But, who can blame them for wanting more profit? We do want our favorite developer to be successful, after all.

On the other hand, arming the enemy is a foolish action and that&#8217;s what the masses of people are doing. Allowing this sort of DRM to be successful paves the way for more heinous versions to follow (due to the nature of successful business), so consumers need to play defense to prevent the situation from getting worse. We cannot allow this measure to go unchallenged even if nothing else comes of it, for the consequences of doing nothing may be too great and then it would be too late. Remember that, deception in warfare has been a successful strategy throughout history. They paint a pretty picture to fool consumers so the consumer must initiate self defense as a necessary precautionary measure. I wonder if Sun Tzu would have anything to say about this type of DRM. Think!

As a longtime Civ player I was going to buy Civ V even if attached to a service or system I hadn't ever heard of. "I have to renounce my citzenship and move to some strange nation to play?!?!? Well ok..."

Fortunately, for me I'm in the camp that has greatly enjoyed the advantages of Steam. Amongst other things I enjoy having all the games I own over Steam accessible in Steam with just a single user name and password.


I don't pretend that I'm going to be able to change anyone's mind that is made up but some of the early complaints about Steam here seem out of date and straight out of the early days of Steam. The primary issues I have ever had playing games on Steam was not Steam, but some poor work on the game or wonky DRM from the game developer tacked on and not something inherent to Steam.


Also I'm a bit baffled by some of the concerns about micro-transactions voiced early on in this thread. Steam in my experience is fairly micro-transaction free compared to something like the console online services. If they were to go the micro-transaction route that is 2K and Firaxis's choice / fault. I don't consider just a Deluxe edition the sure sign of micro-transaction system in the works. Deluxe / collectors editions of questionable value (including Civ games) have existed without micro-transactions for a long time.

Eejit said:

Valve are usually pretty good at communicating with fans. Try emailing some staff (Gabe for instance often replies to emails) and asking. You're more likely to get an answer if you phrase your questions in less accusatory ways though.

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I'll grant that. I have no issues with Valve the developer, they are one of the best out there. It's Steam the platform that I have issues with.

duxup said:

...Fortunately, for me I'm in the camp that has greatly enjoyed the advantages of Steam....

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I don't recall seeing anyone saying steam shouldn't be an option (if they did, I disagree with them). I know you're not saying that, but I reckoned it wouldn't hurt to mention that again.

The option to use or not use steam to play civ5 would be 'best of both worlds'. Maybe making that possible would cost 2k/steam a few money hats (customer comes first?), but that's a sacrifice I'd be willing to make (for them)

And yes, I'd argue as much for your right to get steam as I am for the right of others to not have steam forced upon them to play civ5.

2K Elizabeth! thanks for responding to my earlier questions, much appreciated

A new one: I have a limit to how much i can download, and it most definitely restricts me from downloading an entire game. (assuming this doesn't cut into announcements further down the track) Will there be any way i can get a physical copy to install the game itself AND the behind the scenes stuff (and babylon i guess )?

Nick Danger said:

I don't recall seeing anyone saying steam shouldn't be an option (if they did, I disagree with them). I know you're not saying that, but I reckoned it wouldn't hurt to mention that again.

The option to use or not use steam to play civ5 would be 'best of both worlds'. Maybe making that possible would cost 2k/steam a few money hats (customer comes first?), but that's a sacrifice I'd be willing to make (for them)

And yes, I'd argue as much for your right to get steam as I am for the right of others to not have steam forced upon them to play civ5.

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I don't usually like to get into too much "well the developer should have done" as we don't know all the reasons for their choices. Maybe they're making a reasonable choice, maybe not, or maybe everyone's idea of reasonable is different. Also frankly it is their prerogative to offer their product how they wish no matter how much we feel attached to or want their product. Obviously it is also the customer's right to complain too, so I'm not saying to anyone "sit down and shut up" even if I do think some Steam complaints are misinformed, or dated.


I think it would be nice if there were both options although I suspect there might then be an alternate DRM / services implementation if there were a non Steam option as it seems that is the way they're going to go. I don't assume that non steam would just automatically have to be a DRM free option.


I personally don't have a problem with DRM when it works. To me Steam has been a good example of DRM / distribution system that throws me several valuable bones rather than act as an obstacle. I like it

moopoo said:

2K Elizabeth! thanks for responding to my earlier questions, much appreciated

A new one: I have a limit to how much i can download, and it most definitely restricts me from downloading an entire game. (assuming this doesn't cut into announcements further down the track) Will there be any way i can get a physical copy to install the game itself AND the behind the scenes stuff (and babylon i guess )?

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You will definitely be able to buy a copy of the game on a disc in a store - don't worry about that. The Digital Deluxe version is exclusive to Steam, however.

2K Elizabeth said:

You will definitely be able to buy a copy of the game on a disc in a store - don't worry about that. The Digital Deluxe version is exclusive to Steam, however.

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Will any other vendor, through digital distribution medium or otherwise, have any exclusive content of any kind? Any pre-order bonus content?

I have to ask this because Dragon Age released with four versions in NA region: standard boxed, standard digital, digital deluxe, and collector's edition (boxed only). And those versions were tied to several different pre-order purchase bonuses through several different vendors (I would have had to buy like 5 copies of two versions of the game to get all the content). EU region had something entirely different, iirc.

If I pre-order now through Steam, will I get screwed in a couple of months because you do a deal for a Non-Digital Box-Only Deluxe exclusive with GameStop or Wal-Mart or anything along those lines?

2K Elizabeth,

When will the time period to pre-order the (Steam) Deluxe Edition end?

Cheers,
PoM

PieceOfMind said:

2K Elizabeth,

When will the time period to pre-order the (Steam) Deluxe Edition end?

Cheers,
PoM

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In my experience Steam preorder deals run untill game is released.

Aesir Rising said:

Will any other vendor, through digital distribution medium or otherwise, have any exclusive content of any kind? Any pre-order bonus content?

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Steam has some maps as pre-order bonus content for both the standard and (Steam-only) Deluxe version. Haven't heard of any other pre-order bonuses.

duxup said:

I don't pretend that I'm going to be able to change anyone's mind that is made up but some of the early complaints about Steam here seem out of date and straight out of the early days of Steam. The primary issues I have ever had playing games on Steam was not Steam, but some poor work on the game or wonky DRM from the game developer tacked on and not something inherent to Steam.

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How early is the early days of Steam? Some commentary on Amazon about Empire Total War from about a year ago isn't holding Steam in high esteem mischief either.

dV

2K Elizabeth said:

You will definitely be able to buy a copy of the game on a disc in a store - don't worry about that. The Digital Deluxe version is exclusive to Steam, however.

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Just to clarify for MooPoo: You will be able to buy a physical copy of the game, but you still have to sign up for Steam and go through it's hoops in order to PLAY the game even in offline SP mode. So you might want to take that into account if you have a limited time for DL'ng.

moopoo said:

2K Elizabeth! thanks for responding to my earlier questions, much appreciated

A new one: I have a limit to how much i can download, and it most definitely restricts me from downloading an entire game. (assuming this doesn't cut into announcements further down the track) Will there be any way i can get a physical copy to install the game itself AND the behind the scenes stuff (and babylon i guess )?

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@2k 'Liz

Actually, as I re-review this, this is an excellant question as well. What will be the size of the DL from Steam in order for us to actually play Civ V (not that I will be doing that, but one must occasionally satisfy one's curiosity).

Drakarska said:

@2k 'Liz

Actually, as I re-review this, this is an excellant question as well. What will be the size of the DL from Steam in order for us to actually play Civ V (not that I will be doing that, but one must occasionally satisfy one's curiosity).

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The exact size of any download won't be finalized till the game is, but in my experience with other Steam games when you have a physical disk is that it is small. But until we finalize our game, I can't give you an exact size.

mamba said:

Steam has some maps as pre-order bonus content for both the standard and (Steam-only) Deluxe version. Haven't heard of any other pre-order bonuses.

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I've not heard of any either. What I'm hoping to avoid is a situation where I pre-order the Digital Deluxe through Steam - and come to find a better deal with different/better/more content becomes available through another source. So I'm hoping Elizabeth can expand on her prior response.

See post 872.