SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Alright, I see now where you were going to earlier !!
That's clever !!

So, I've tried a bit what you said (storing the Forge and Aque while building wealth) and :
If we assign 3 workers to it
(1st worker is right there and starts mining the iron ; 2nd comes in 3 turns from Varanasi when the floodplains is cottaged and helps finish the mine during 2 turns, then go to the forests to chop ; 3rd is built in Bombay and puts 1 chop in the 1st forest then 3 chops in the 2nd ; 3rd chop is synchro with the arrival of the 2 workers from the mine).
We can finish TGL on T151 and the HG on T157. But I have Delhi at only size 7 on T156 (I guess that's what I get from working an ice tile).

I don't know yet what's the best way to operate because I don't think I'm getting the most out of the forge, right now... I'll have to read on hammer overflow ^^ I didn't think we could get so huge amounts (100+ hammers from the Aque, counting Delhi's base production, if we don't put any more hammers into it).

It was actually suggested by dingding in his last post.

I'd rather gain more food in Delhi with later HG, we can work the mines at size 11 easily

BTW, any other iron sightings?

There are other iron sightings, yes, but not in our territory.

Zara's Lalibella (western desert city) is settled on iron.
Saladdin has iron (iirc) on the south east part of his territory.
In the Far West, near the small barbarian island, on Justinian's continent, there is a coastal barb city, right ? Well, if you head south of that city, there's an area where fish is abundant. That's right west from the desert. And... in that desert, there happens to be iron deposits.

I think that's all, but I have re uploaded the save if you want to check


I've read your solution to the GLib.
I like it better than mine, actually. Using only 2 workers is a huge difference. Also... I don't keep Delhi high enough in pop to make the HG relevant.

Here's part of the plan

I'd suggest to trade away small techs for ~30g since those AIs need more benefit anyway.

T141 -- Convert Hindu, Cal(war 1NW, WB 1S2E, must on coastal tile), Del(Warrior to Vij), Vij(takes horse so WB in 3 turns), Bombay(takes FP)

T142 -- WB to Cordoba (2 reasons, easier to dodge and can be used to scout east if the NE WB been stopped or killed by barbarian galley), New cities (Gra, 1artist), Vij (takes cow back), Var(4th citizen on FP), Del(Temple, farm to cot), Saladin(Cur<->Monarchy + gold if any (Edit: Let's do this trade when Zara is 2 or 3 turns from Monarchy), check for wine availability every turn, we can cancel the pig deal and used horse for trade instead)

T143 -- Del (Forge, 9th pop on farm, FW 1NE C&C)

T144 -- Del (FW 1E chop), Var(1FW 2N1W cot, 1FW 2E I&C), Vij (Gra, WB to clam), Cal(G 1SW, set & FW load, G 1W), Pat(Gra, WB to Fish tile)

T145 -- (G 1NW, unload set&FW 1N, G 1SE), Lah (FW 1N R&C), Vij (FW 1S2E I&C)

T146 -- Switch to OR+Slavery, Agra(whip)

We encounter a decision here if Toku has not forgotten the demand. I'd suggest to stop here.
Choice 1 -- Convert to Confu so that cities get the bonus of OR
Choice 2 -- Stay on Hindu for at most 5 turns to get the OB from Toku, we can convert to Confu anytime Toku forgets the demand

kossin said:

Bombay: No warriors yet we have enough happy surplus. We may want consider swapping the horses with Vijay at some point to grow faster while building a granary.

Click to expand...

Got it. I was hesitant to queue that warrior and... heck! did it to show we could!
When we'll have Hunting we will still be able to build warriors (cheapest garrison available --> best) but it will be much more... complicated.
Granary is fine with me.

kossin said:

Calcutta: agree with worker, it will be most useful before finishing the granary. We need to farm all the grassland here to grow more (start from Bombay). incense plantation can wait.

Click to expand...

OK for farms, I didn't think about that, I confess. I was worried that the granary would decay while building the worker but it doesn't, so... yeah, worker is cool.

kossin said:

Varanasi: I much prefer chopping the forest to finish the granary without whipping. Forge before library for 3-pop whip. We can borrow the marble for production if we ever need some.

Click to expand...

Got it. I didn't think up to the 3pop whip of the forge.

kossin said:

Bangalore: 2nd pop should use the cottage from Delhi to grow it.

Click to expand...

Right. In my plan, it used to work a 2F1H tile...

kossin said:

Major micro: Delhi

Click to expand...

I'll major micro it

Duckweed said:

T141 -- Vij(takes horse so WB in 3 turns), Bombay(takes FP)

Click to expand...

Perfect. My WB here was 1 turn late...

Duckweed said:

T142 -- Del(Temple, farm to cot)

Click to expand...

Are you sure the Temple is better than building Wealth ? Farm to cottage is ok.

Duckweed said:

T143 -- Del (Forge, 9th pop on farm, FW 1NE C&C)

Click to expand...

So... you finish cottaging 1S of Delhi first, and then go chopping. Is that cottage relevant ? Wouldn't it be simpler/better to start chopping from T141 ? I notice Kossin does it in the same way.

Duckweed said:

T144 -- Var(1FW 2E I&C)

Click to expand...

Right, I didn't bother not losing worker turns while moving the FW to Delhi.

Duckweed said:

T145 -- Lah (FW 1N R&C)

Click to expand...

That's super minor but we already put 1 turn of road 1NW.

Duckweed said:

T146 -- Agra(whip)

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Here... I don't know. At first I did this, but then Agra does NOT work the 2nd gold mine when it is ready.
If we whip now, we have <10 overflow into the LH...
If we don't whip, the mine is online on T153 and Agra can work it. It would yield additional commerce and even hammers from the mine. It will still be possible to whip the city and get better overflow into the LH.

Duckweed said:

We encounter a decision here if Toku has not forgotten the demand. I'd suggest to stop here.
Choice 1 -- Convert to Confu so that cities get the bonus of OR
Choice 2 -- Stay on Hindu for at most 5 turns to get the OB from Toku, we can convert to Confu anytime Toku forgets the demand

Click to expand...

I understand that diplo modifiers "stack" over time. They're not instant effects but lasting. Didn't know that.
Anyways, making a pause in the set at that point is ok with me. In a way, smaller sets = easier discussion = faster.
It will also allow to re evaluate the barb situation


What wasn't quoted, I agree with.
Thanks for the detailed WB moves to evade the barbs, in particular, Duckweed. I was counting on you for this ^^
I'll update the plan with your input.
Just one thing, you're doing contradictory stuff on T143 with Delhi's 9th citizen (cottage vs farm). Can you reach a consensus on this ?

Trading away iron/copper is something I do routinely. You don't always need to have them in your hand... the trick is to trade one first, wait 10 turns and then trade the other, so that at any time you can decide to cancel one of the trades to get it back. Cheap warrior garrisons are so much worth it as you say.

We'll need/want the temple eventually. Even if we build wealth we'll either have enough gold to 100% Literature or won't have enough to do it and require partial slider. Therefore I agree with putting some hammers in the temple rather than wealth.

Delhi 9th pop on cottage, isn't it already working the farm? If not then farm yes.

Finishing the cottage vs chopping earlier: as of my plan you can see that any earlier forest chop comes 1 turn too early when we're whipping something. It's possible it works without losing hammers to overflow cap but I'd rather not risk it (I think we'd lose hammers just by looking at it).

I haven't checked Duckweed's micro on Agra. My guess is we get to pop3 much earlier and the earlier commerce will be gained back later.

Updated plan, up to T146.
There's a big question as to what tiles Delhi works between T143 and 146. I'm not working the 3rd mine, atm. I guess I should but I'd rather have your confirmation/infirmation.

The other debatable thing I can see is : "T144: Calcutta finishes Settler, starts workboat." Could be a FW right now. I'm planning to whip the WB into FW on T151 (Calcutta size 3, 2 improved tiles, WB 1 turn from completion).

Other than that, there's no whipping in this part, so it's pretty simple, I guess we can agree on it fast and I'll play it today

BornInCantaloup said:

Are you sure the Temple is better than building Wealth ? Farm to cottage is ok.

There's no critical tech like Currency and CS to reach as soon as possible now, temple will come to function soon.

So... you finish cottaging 1S of Delhi first, and then go chopping. Is that cottage relevant ? Wouldn't it be simpler/better to start chopping from T141 ? I notice Kossin does it in the same way.

I did not think about it too much, workers have no problem to finish 2 chop in time. It should be fine either way.

Right, I didn't bother not losing worker turns while moving the FW to Delhi.


That's super minor but we already put 1 turn of road 1NW.

Did not know previous move, I moved it that way since the tile is in culture border.

Here... I don't know. At first I did this, but then Agra does NOT work the 2nd gold mine when it is ready.

If we whip now, we have <10 overflow into the LH...
If we don't whip, the mine is online on T153 and Agra can work it. It would yield additional commerce and even hammers from the mine. It will still be possible to whip the city and get better overflow into the LH.

You are right, leave the decision after the major decision. Since if we convert Confu, then it's better to be whipped with the Hindu bonus.

I understand that diplo modifiers "stack" over time. They're not instant effects but lasting. Didn't know that.

If we leave Hindu before 10 turns, the diplo modifiers will fade.

Anyways, making a pause in the set at that point is ok with me. In a way, smaller sets = easier discussion = faster.
It will also allow to re evaluate the barb situation


What wasn't quoted, I agree with.
Thanks for the detailed WB moves to evade the barbs, in particular, Duckweed. I was counting on you for this ^^
I'll update the plan with your input.
Just one thing, you're doing contradictory stuff on T143 with Delhi's 9th citizen (cottage vs farm). Can you reach a consensus on this ?

Hammer wise, Farm>Mine>cottage, but working cottages is needed to bring them to town, hence the order of tile in Delhi is Cottage>Farm>Mine.

Click to expand...

The relies are in bold. I also modified the trade of Monarchy in previous post.

@Your new plan

Check whether Toku forgets the demand and OB with him in the 1st time.
T142 -- Vij takes back Cow
T144 -- I change my mind, Vij should work on 2nd WB since the island city is going to take one clam. Better not swap the tile. Cal on granary.
T146 -- Switch to OR+Slavery, save one sentence for the plan next time.

Some thoughts about the religion decision for next set:

We will lose hammers from granary whip in a couple cities and the most hammer loss in Delhi and will delay TGL by 1 turn. The benefit is that we will gain the trade route from Toku and Justinian. The best result is that we convert to Confu and hope that Toku will forget the demand as soon as possible. However, if he does not forget it in short time ~10 turns, then stay in Hindu is a better choice.

T141: I'd load the WIII warrior in the galley if it has any movement points left, then go back on the fish tile... unload on the island next turn to avoid unwanted surprises then galley goes back to Fish waiting for settler+worker. In my latest test another barb galley spawns there and that'd be a royal pain in the buttocks.

T143: Delhi works 4 cottages and the farm. (not the mine! this is important)

T144: why waste all those worker moves? Use the FW from Bombay to chop Delhi. It goes 1N of Delhi, cottage+cancel then finishes the chop in 2 turns into TGL, same time as overflow from Forge.

Agree with what Duckweed posted above me.

Getting Justinian's trade routes is no guarantee but the odds that there's a network going through culture from Saladin-Toku-Justinian is good I suppose. Extra commerce is never to be frowned upon indeed.

^T144 -- that worker is going to chop the forest for the Fish city. The new worker from Bombay plus the one in Delhi are enough for chop.

Ah I see. Just looked at the save...

t142 load WIII warrior on galley, galley back to fish
t143 unload WIII warrior on grass hill that fogbusts everything on the island (1E of N sugar), galley back to Fish
t144 load FW and settler on galley, back to fish
t145 unload settler+FW on S sugar

Subsequently, leave the warrior 1NE of the island city, it fogbusts the whole island while staying inside culture (maybe save a few coins of upkeep later).

I edited the plan.

@T144 Worker : I thought as well the FW was going to Delhi.
1 chop in Fish and Deer would set up the Granary + LH quickly, indeed.

T146 -- Switch to OR+Slavery, save one sentence for the plan next time.

Click to expand...

It would be simpler, but I don't think we will want to pay OR upkeep just for Agra if we stay in Hindu...

T144 -- I change my mind, Vij should work on 2nd WB since the island city is going to take one clam. Better not swap the tile. Cal on granary.

Click to expand...

Kossin wanted a 2nd WB in Vijay as well. So... alright
However, I think it would be better to start a FW in Calcutta, then : if we set it on Granary, it will be working bad tiles very soon, FAR before we chain farm up to it. Or i there a hidden reason to resume granary now ?

Calcutta: Hmm I don't know what Duckweed tried... borrow the grass mine from Vijay, whip?

If not then I still prefer FW before finishing the granary yes.

Yes, Cal can borrow the hill tile at size 3, whipping a worker at size 4 is better than build it at size 2.

@BIC
I'm OK with the newest plan except Cal build.

EDIt : read your response. Got the logic. Yep, that would work


So...
Bugg looks busy-busy.

Shall I play this in the upcoming 30 minutes ? (I take Duckweed's approval as granted, waiting for Kossin's)

Yup, you've got my vote to go ahead. Remember that 3 votes is enough to go ahead if the player is one of the votes... of course it's preferable to get a consensus but we really need to get moving.

When we have more info on the map, discussion will be much more important.

Save re uploaded.
Some good, some bad. Circum navigating with workboats proves difficult.

Let it screen !



Official log :



*Thinking loud :*
4E1S of Delhi is a decent spot for a coastal city.

Nice, a GE!

I'll take a look at the save in a while, I have 2 more games I need to catch up to at the moment heh.

Some thoughts:
North eastern wb: crawl back south, and try to move N of it by hiding in a city eventually.
Calcutta-Eastern wb: move 1-tile agreed and then resume its course to try circling south of the continent of Izzy.

About Toku: need to check save.

Mehmed&co can be appeased by gifting a few techs I'd guess (need to look at save here).

I wouldn't put a city anywhere E of Delhi until we've completely chopped all the forests to Delhi.

Here's the updated testgame.

The bpt is off.
AIs techs are off as well.
We have 1 horse more than in the real save (and -1gpt as well, and no wine...).
Barbarians were annihilated with worldbuilder.

However ! Food, production & units (our units) are where they are ! (Or so I hope...) Except for super far workboats.


I'll write the plan for the remaining turns a bit later today.

Good job BIC!

We're making good progress.

I'd like to point out that we're now getting trade routes from Justinian. OB with Toku will be worth 12 commerce in minor cities.

As a result I'd go to Confu+Slavery+OR now and back to Hindu if/when Toku forgets the demand penalty.

We can gift a few things to Mehmed but it isn't pressing at all... selling techs for gold should do it.

We appear to be 8 tiles from circling the globe... stupid barb galley.