A new idea: religious wars

Rhye

Rhye

's and Fall creator
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I'd like to hear your opinions on an idea I had in the last days.

Basically, I was looking for a simple idea to feature schisms without adding new religions.

I ended up with a simple concept: to expand AIWars system with the "schism" condition.

When a religion is spread enough (at least 4 civs have it as state religion), each one has to choose the faction they belong to.
AI does it automatically, the Human player will choose through a popup.
Then, a 2v2 (with the partecipants chosen randomly) war will possibly be triggered.
Each schism can happen only twice for each religion, and one of the condition has to be that there are no internal wars (between civs of the same major religion).
So, each religion has 3 branches.
I would remove Taoism and set it as a sub-confucianism (as they indeed influenced each other).

Buddhism:
Theravada
Mahayana
Vajrayana

Cristianity:
Catholic
Ortodox
Protestant

Islam:
Sunni
Shi'a
Isma'ili

Judaism:
Ortodox
Masorti
Progressive

Confucianism:
Kongjiao (Confucius's teaching itself)
Taoism
Shinto

Hinduism:
Vaishnavism
Shaivism
Smartism


If you see something incorrect in this list, please tell me
 
It is a nice idea! I would like to see it in action!
 
Sounds cool. How exactly would the new factions be represented? What I'm trying to ask is whether or not the factions created by the schisms are permanent or if they are just temporary mechanisms to make a one-time war.
 
another great idea. i like it a lot. it will bring even more realism to an already lifelike mod thing of yours.
 
I like. The only thing I think is essential is to have the "brothers and sisters" diplo bonus adjusted according to sect. Catholics should like eachother more than they like Protestants, but they should like Protestants more than they like Muslims.

As to Judaism, first, let's get the names straight. It's either Hebrew, or sometimes hebraicized English, or plain, real English.
Hebrew(Hebraicized)=English
Haredi(Ortodoxi)=Orthodox
Masorati(Konservativi)=Conservative
(Reformi)=Reform
Now, the problem is that these aren't quite sects in the same way sects exist in other religions, afaik. It's more like levels of adherence. I'm not quite sure how realistic it would be, if two or more Jewish states existed, for one state to be officially Reform Jewish and another officially Orthodox Jewish. I know in Israel some would have the state go Orthodox Jewish and others would be more lax and tolerant and have the state acommodate Reform and Conservative Jews and just not get into all of the details of the Orthodox way of life.
I'm not sure about this, but my initial feeling is that the different streams of Judaism aren't quite fitting and that no real schism should be possible for Judaism in the game. But who knows how it could have played out in an alternate history.
 
Blasphemous said:
I like. The only thing I think is essential is to have the "brothers and sisters" diplo bonus adjusted according to sect. Catholics should like eachother more than they like Protestants, but they should like Protestants more than they like Muslims.

As to Judaism, first, let's get the names straight. It's either Hebrew, or sometimes hebraicized English, or plain, real English.
Hebrew(Hebraicized)=English
Haredi(Ortodoxi)=Orthodox
Masorati(Konservativi)=Conservative
(Reformi)=Reform
Now, the problem is that these aren't quite sects in the same way sects exist in other religions, afaik. It's more like levels of adherence. I'm not quite sure how realistic it would be, if two or more Jewish states existed, for one state to be officially Reform Jewish and another officially Orthodox Jewish. I know in Israel some would have the state go Orthodox Jewish and others would be more lax and tolerant and have the state acommodate Reform and Conservative Jews and just not get into all of the details of the Orthodox way of life.
I'm not sure about this, but my initial feeling is that the different streams of Judaism aren't quite fitting and that no real schism should be possible for Judaism in the game. But who knows how it could have played out in an alternate history.
Click to expand...

I agree. Historically the schism in Judaism was Christianity as the first Christians were Jews. But to have Judaism split by the level of adherence doesnt work too well.
 
Decent idea with a lot of potential. But I'm with the others that some of the names could use some work.

Particularly Judaism. We don't want to get into some of the more modern interpretations, but go back to the oldschool, with more nuanced distinctions. This way, we sidestep any of the bigger debates (which tend to happen more frequently in modern times).

  • Buddhism:
    1. Theravada
    2. Mahayana
    3. Vajrayana
  • Cristianity:
    1. Catholic
    2. Ortodox
    3. Protestant
  • Islam:
    1. Sunni
    2. Shi'a
    3. Kharijite
  • Judaism:
    1. Ortodox
    2. Sadducees
    3. Pharisees
  • Hinduism:
    1. Vaishnavism
    2. Shaivism
    3. Smartism

The last two, I understand they're tricky. But putting Taoism and Shinto and Confucianism together as sects of a different religion would be like saying Islam is a sect of Christianity. I think we can get these right:


Shinto, for all intents and purposes, isn't much of a world religion at all. It's more like Mithraism, the codification of Roman pagan beliefs. These indigenous religions don't really fit into the scope of Civ 4's World Religions... or, at least, they weren't "top 7" material.
 
OK guys keep in mind that it won't be easy that more than 4 civs get the same state religion other than christianism (at least, this is my experience with .93) so it is an idea that is going to deal with Europe and the christian civs more than else (maybe to rebalance the lack of wars in such area?).
 
The actual mechanics -- X number of Civilizations -- might not be the right way to go about it at all. It might be better to make it a function purely of absolute # of cities. Perhaps tie it to culture somehow, to make culture more useful (for holding a religion together if you're in charge, or making a split possible if you're not in charge).
 
I am SO against this idea.
Although religions have different sects, it doesn't mean that the religious belief is different; wars shouldn't evolve from religious sects.
It would also take away the taste of civilization.

Please Rhye, and everyone, if this was to be implemented into this mod, then please at least make it an option. I wouldn't want it to be forced in the mod. Make it an option that one can chose to play with or without.
 
Umm, there are pretty damn bloody conflicts between different sects within religions sometimes. Take a look at what goes on between Sunnis and Shi'ites, say in Iraq right now.
This is not only necessary, but perhaps a mild representation, to have sub-religions instead of separate religions in-game for the different sects. In reality sometimes two sects of two different religions have more in common than two sects within a single religion (but some core beliefs can keep sects under the same title.)
 
dh_epic said:
Shinto, for all intents and purposes, isn't much of a world religion at all. It's more like Mithraism, the codification of Roman pagan beliefs. These indigenous religions don't really fit into the scope of Civ 4's World Religions... or, at least, they weren't "top 7" material.
Click to expand...

and also, shintoism is generally only followed in japan, unlike the religions in civ which are adhered to by many more people.

moving on, shouldn't there be "sect cities" for each different schism? catholicism would be rome, i suppose, not sure about any of the others...
 
Blasphemous said:
Umm, there are pretty damn bloody conflicts between different sects within religions sometimes. Take a look at what goes on between Sunnis and Shi'ites, say in Iraq right now.
This is not only necessary, but perhaps a mild representation, to have sub-religions instead of separate religions in-game for the different sects. In reality sometimes two sects of two different religions have more in common than two sects within a single religion (but some core beliefs can keep sects under the same title.)
Click to expand...
... still, I prefer this to be an optional aspect. I, for one, wouldn't play the mod if this was in the mainstream, although I believe that the mod is a great one.
 
Prestidigitator said:
I am SO against this idea.
Although religions have different sects, it doesn't mean that the religious belief is different; wars shouldn't evolve from religious sects.
It would also take away the taste of civilization.

Please Rhye, and everyone, if this was to be implemented into this mod, then please at least make it an option. I wouldn't want it to be forced in the mod. Make it an option that one can chose to play with or without.
Click to expand...

1. Different sects DO have different beliefs and ways of life. I can only speak in any detail about the differences between the Christian groups but assume that the sectatian differences of the other major religions can be just as distinct and perhaps more so (esp. Hinduism).

2. There have probably been more wars BETWEEN sects on the basis of religious/cultural differences than between religions. This is not ironic, since people have to have a fair bit in common to have a meaningful fight. When people are completely different there is less offence as each side figures that the other is talking about something completely different. They have nothing much to fight over.
 
I don't like this idea too... I think it would create some big controversy for many people. Oh and me too, I wouldn't play the mod if this was included in the 'mainstream'.

If this was to be in, it should be an option.
 
At the end of the day, it's Rhye's call. I don't think you need religious reasons for wars. There's already enough reasons for wars. Plus, too many religions clutters the interface, generates too much wealth too much happiness.

I'm also not a fan of options... since this would be such a huge part of the game balance that turning it off would either make the game way easier, or way harder (depending on how it's implemented). It would be impossible to let people play with OR without and have the game always be fair.

So I do leave it up to Rhye.
 
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