SGOTM 10 - Maple Sporks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Whosit
Entropic Knight
(Nuclear) Wintertime for Gandhi and India
Act 1, Scene 1
Inherited Turn 218, 1905 AD
So, this musical, it's going to start with a BANG.
And here's the before:
And after:
Note that nukes both badly injure units and wipe some completely away! Gandhi's garrison is so badly hurt that there is no need to use our siege units. And, fortunately, the fallout did not block our path to St. Pete.
Sorry we had to do that, people of St. Petersburg. But whoever survived the blast has proven themselves to be a true Russian!
Unfortunately, our Pinch Knight fails to kills a wounded Musketman at 91% odds. After that farce, I just use Infantry to mop up, and St. Pete is ours. Gandhi was kind enough to build a lot of Spy buildings for us. There's also the Shwedagon Paya. We didn't build that, did we?
I could round up some workers with Knights, but no reason to break stack just for that.
There are 5 squares with fallout in it. Ecology can't get here fast enough, but it IS probably safer just to do Railroad first.
Meanwhile, with those trades gone, we're suffering a loss of food in some cities, like Smolensk. Going to hit the trading boards.
Roosevelt will give us both Clams AND Fish for 1 Hit Musical. Go Sid's! And rather than more seafood, I take 9 gpt for Gold.
No trades are up for renegotiation, but I snap up 9 gpt from Mao with some Hit Musicals.
St. Pete will be in revolt for 3 turns. No tiles have been returned to us yet, but hopefully we'll get some soon.
-End Turn-
Turn 219, 1906 AD
Well. Churchill declares war on us.
Gandhi's spies destroy: A mine, Factory production in Moscow, and a workshop. Workers will be dispatched to repair the damage.
De Gaulle comes offer Communism and some gold for Steam Power, but I decline because I figure that our tech lead is more important, and Communism just isn't as valuable as Steam Power.
DeGaulle gets a Golden Age, and Gandhi gets a Great Engineer.
Yakutsk: Jail < Coal Plant
Since Moscow lost all Factory progess, I switch it to a Levee for now.
The mine was on a hill outside Moscow, but it's already fixed. The Workshop was one of St. Pete's, so no big loss.
Sink an English Caravel. No sign of more English units.
I draft out of Yaro because it's working two coast tiles. I don't draft out of any stagnated production town, though. Meanwhile, I advance on Delhi.
-End Turn-
Turn 220, 1907 AD
Orenburg: Courthouse < Observatory (if we're going to run scientists, might as well improve our beaker output)
Interesting note: I sent a Musketman from Smolensk to St. Pete, and the fastest route went through fallout. It didn't seem to slow the unit down.
Delhi is pretty well defended. A nuke next turn should change that. Too bad we don't have more 2 move units. There are a few airships that will be a nuisance, but hopefully they'll get wrecked in the coming explosion.
-End Turn-
Turn 221, 1908 AD
Smolensk: Tactical Nuke < Rock 'n Roll (with some more health, we could build a power plant. We also would want the Pentagon somewhere)
Gandhi decides to hit our Frigate stack outside of Yaroslavl' with his airships instead of our soldiers. How brilliant.
Act 1, Scene 2
Nuclear snow falls . . . .
The injured Grenadier's hill is fallout free, so we take it! Hopefully Gandhi's garrison won't heal TOO much in between turns.
-End Turn-
Turn 222, 1909 AD
Damn Gandhi and his spies. We lose a Forest Preserve and a Workshop near Smolensk. At least we kill a Frigate in between turns, but he has a Ship of the Line on the loose.
De Gaulle wants us to declare war on the Americans. No way.
Rostov: Factory < Grocer (it's shrinking)
Yaroslavl': Drydock < Ironclad (it's quick and counters Ships of the Line)
Yekaterinburg: Tactical Nuke < Artillery
I briefly consider retreating our Frigates, but then I remember that I need to defend our seafood. Godspeed, you all!
We get a Great Engineer, the brilliant Nichola Tesla. We could burn him with the Great Scientist for a Golden Age, or use him to rush something valuable like the Pentagon. +2 experience! And 1 promotion for drafted units.
I promote our Cannons to Accuracy so that they can pull down Delhi's defense in 1 turn. 80% to 0%, and our top Infantry's odds go from 73% to 99%. Not bad!
The fighting goes on into the night, but our forces have the decisive advantage. A few casualties, but no losses. Delhi is ours, but it is still trapped in Indian culture!
Get Moscow's Forest Preserve fixed. Next Great Person in 4 turns, a bit longer than expected.
Micro Yaro 'cuz I just noticed the gov' hired funny specialists instead of working the coast.
But, since there's no unhappiness anyway, draft another Infantry!
I upgrade our last Maceman into a Medic. I want to let our troops heal before moving on as many took damage in the fighting.
-End Turn-
Turn 223, 1910 AD
We lose a Camp to infiltrators. Gandhi's SotL sinks one of our Frigates and then breaks some fishing boats. Yaro will do a Work Boat after the Ironclad.
Novgorod: Submarine < Factory
The SotL is at about half strength, so I think our Frigates can finish it off.
How's that for Russian seamanship? Finished it off flawlessly at 70% odds of victory!
Looking at the Foreign Advisor tech screen, Roosey and Gandhi are able to tech Fission! But I don't think that Roosey has Uranium, and we've taken Gandhi's source.
Yikes, I really have to babysit Yaro! I'm going to set the Governor to emphasize food. Hopefully that'll keep him from hiring back specialists so often. We want it to grow! So we can draft every 2 turns!
I just noticed that some of the fallout around St. Pete DID go away on its own, but it's probably a small, random chance.
I'm drawing some reinforcements to the front line.
-End Turn-
Turn 224, 1911 AD
We're quite wealthy.
Railroad is in. We could now use that Great Engineer for Mining, Inc., too.
Yekaterinburg: Artillery < Submarine
Sub briefly docks in Moscow to pick up the nuke I rebased there. Gandhi has another Ship of the Line on the prowl, maybe going for Moscow's seafood!
Units are healing in Delhi for a couple of turns, then we're on the march again.
I slip a Work Boat into Moscow's build just in case our Crabs do get pillaged.
Switch a grassland workshop in Smolensk to a floodplains workshop and put a coastal worker on the vacated Grassland workshop. Yay! +5 base hammers, ends up as a +12 hammers.
-End Turn-
Turn 225, 1912 AD
In between turns, that SotL kills one of our Frigates, but our remaining Frigate defeats an Indian Frigate. Now . . .
Yaroslavl': Ironclad < Submarine
Yakutsk: Coal Plant < Hospital (micro the specialists)
St. Petersburg: Theatre < Forge
Strike the Work Boat from Moscow's queue as the threat is over:
Need I go on? No, but I will:
Bombay learns to love the bomb, and I land three Infantry outside (unfortunately, the defenders were only badly wounded, not wiped out). But, I have a couple of Frigates to help pound on the defenses, and reinforcements should arrive shortly.
Troops will move out of Delhi next turn.
I just noticed that Gandhi had added a Great Merchant to the Artist we embeded in St. Pete. Very nice of him.
In Delhi, just taking a closer look, too, there are TWO Great Artists, plus a merged Great General.
-End Turn-
Turn 226, 1913 AD
De Gaulle cancels our trade deal, but I'll renegotiate. I now see that the deal was lost because he lost access to the resource he was giving us. So I sell him some of our reclaimed Ivory for 14 gpt.
Moscow is going to hit the Happy Cap, so I take away the Uranium Farmer and make him a Specialist, cutting the time for the next Merchant to 19 turns.
Kill a wandering Grenadier on the way to Bombay. I will only devote a few troops to Bombay because, although the garrison is large, it is mostly Longbowmen.
Move our stack towards Vijayanagera (can't pronounce it!). I'll nuke the city next turn, and attack the turn after that.
I notice that Churchill will finally speak (he must have figured out what our nukes can do!) so I cut a deal with him. His map, some change, and some gpt.
Don't look so sad, Churchill! You've saved your citizens from the Russian bomb! . . . For now.
-End Turn-
Turn 227, 1914 AD
In between turns, lose a frigate to a SotL. Our Submarines do NOT go to the top of a defense stack.
Yekaterinburg: Submarine < Tactical Nuke
We're down 3 out of 4 Frigates, but I brought our Iron Clad to bear, so that'll help defend our (small) naval stack. Destroyers and Transports will be nice!
Merchant is dropped off on the shores of Beijing.
I drop Deep Impact on Vija.
It'll go down next turn.
I just noticed that Churchy's map reveal a new city of Gandhi's:
Bangalore is behind a mountain. Lovely.
-End Turn-
Act 1, Scene 3
Turn 228, 1915 AD
Lose a Frigate down south. I think I need to throw out a few more Ironclads. Will divert another Frigate to keep our seafood safe.
St. Pete: Forge < Granary
This isn't a fair fight:
Vaja is ours! Nothing special inside save for a merged Great Artist.
We also pop a Great General in Yaro. Gonna have him wait there to see what we want to do with him. Settling him there WOULD yield us draftees with a Promotion, but so would the Pentagon.
Our Merchant pulls in another 3150 gold. Yay!
Since we have silks from Delhi now, I cancel our imports from China to get Incense instead.
-End Turn-
Turn 229, 1916 AD
Moscow is unhappy, I'll have to turn up the Cultural Slider.
Yaroslavl': Submarine < Ironclad
We capture Bombay, taking a settled Great Engineer with it. The city seems to have retained most of its infrastructure, it has Versailles, and a lot of Spy buildings. Taking over India is really going to improve our EP rate!
India has been torn apart as the show moves into the darker second act. Can Gandhi hope to survive the relentless Russian march, or will he only flail helplessly as the bomb drops ever lower?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After the Levee, Moscow should probably get a Jail and/or a Colosseum to deal with the unhappiness and War Weariness (we're up to +10 emancipation unhappies here).
Garrison the troops in Bombay so that the heal. This excursion netted us 3 Combat III Infantry (hope the promotions weren't
, though I did with a sub: Drill II, rather than Flanking I/Navigation I). Maybe add a medic for faster healing?
The guys down south need 2 turns to heal.
I cut EP spending on Gandhi entirely. We're 3 times his power, he's rapidly fading, and we'd rather see Mao's stats (I think we can get that in 4-5 turns).
One nuke is in Vija, another is in Bombay to be loaded onto the sub. To load a nuke onto a sub, the sub must be in the city that has the nuke, select the nuke and choose "load" then move the sub on its merry way. Just a heads up for those unfamiliar with nukes.
Gandhi has a lot of Workers holed up in Pataliputra, and we somehow scored one in Bombay.
But we may want to build a lot more because I'm not sure how long Fallout takes to clean up. I'm also slightly worried that the floodplains near St. Pete are ruined, but hopefully they'll be OK after some scrubbing. Also, I have a trio of workers south of St. Pete to rebuild a farm and restore an irrigation chain, so they should do that.
After the next nuke, Smolensk should probably just finish off Rock 'n Roll, and then we're going to want the Eiffle Tower pretty quickly. Those Broadcast towers will make the Cultural Slider much more effective, and the extra happies from the hits. We're going to obsolete our Furs, Ivory, and Whales pretty soon.
Tech path after Combustion? Maybe Industrialism, to get Tanks. Maybe Mass Media for Hollywood. Maybe we can tech or trade (or get from Gandhi) Communism for EP+ buildings and Mt. Rushmore.
We could do Refrigeration < Superconductors to get our Unique Building, the Research Lab, which provides +2 free scientists! But that may not be very necessary because we have a pretty good tech lead as it is. I was wondering if we'd want the SDI, but we should be able to deny Uranium to the AI pretty effectively.
So, I think: Finish Ecology < Combustion (get those Destroyers out!) < Mass Media < Industrialism (2-move tanks!) < Flight (air power to smash our enemies) < ?
Also, Pentagon with the Great Engineer somewhere? +2 XP everywhere is nothing to sneeze at.
Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Maple_Sporks_SG010_AD1916_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Act 1, Scene 1
Inherited Turn 218, 1905 AD
So, this musical, it's going to start with a BANG.
And here's the before:
And after:
Note that nukes both badly injure units and wipe some completely away! Gandhi's garrison is so badly hurt that there is no need to use our siege units. And, fortunately, the fallout did not block our path to St. Pete.
Sorry we had to do that, people of St. Petersburg. But whoever survived the blast has proven themselves to be a true Russian!
Unfortunately, our Pinch Knight fails to kills a wounded Musketman at 91% odds. After that farce, I just use Infantry to mop up, and St. Pete is ours. Gandhi was kind enough to build a lot of Spy buildings for us. There's also the Shwedagon Paya. We didn't build that, did we?
Spoiler Inside St. Petersburg :
I could round up some workers with Knights, but no reason to break stack just for that.
There are 5 squares with fallout in it. Ecology can't get here fast enough, but it IS probably safer just to do Railroad first.
Meanwhile, with those trades gone, we're suffering a loss of food in some cities, like Smolensk. Going to hit the trading boards.
Roosevelt will give us both Clams AND Fish for 1 Hit Musical. Go Sid's! And rather than more seafood, I take 9 gpt for Gold.
No trades are up for renegotiation, but I snap up 9 gpt from Mao with some Hit Musicals.
St. Pete will be in revolt for 3 turns. No tiles have been returned to us yet, but hopefully we'll get some soon.
-End Turn-
Turn 219, 1906 AD
Well. Churchill declares war on us.
Gandhi's spies destroy: A mine, Factory production in Moscow, and a workshop. Workers will be dispatched to repair the damage.
De Gaulle comes offer Communism and some gold for Steam Power, but I decline because I figure that our tech lead is more important, and Communism just isn't as valuable as Steam Power.
DeGaulle gets a Golden Age, and Gandhi gets a Great Engineer.
Yakutsk: Jail < Coal Plant
Since Moscow lost all Factory progess, I switch it to a Levee for now.
The mine was on a hill outside Moscow, but it's already fixed. The Workshop was one of St. Pete's, so no big loss.
Sink an English Caravel. No sign of more English units.
I draft out of Yaro because it's working two coast tiles. I don't draft out of any stagnated production town, though. Meanwhile, I advance on Delhi.
-End Turn-
Turn 220, 1907 AD
Orenburg: Courthouse < Observatory (if we're going to run scientists, might as well improve our beaker output)
Interesting note: I sent a Musketman from Smolensk to St. Pete, and the fastest route went through fallout. It didn't seem to slow the unit down.
Delhi is pretty well defended. A nuke next turn should change that. Too bad we don't have more 2 move units. There are a few airships that will be a nuisance, but hopefully they'll get wrecked in the coming explosion.
-End Turn-
Turn 221, 1908 AD
Smolensk: Tactical Nuke < Rock 'n Roll (with some more health, we could build a power plant. We also would want the Pentagon somewhere)
Gandhi decides to hit our Frigate stack outside of Yaroslavl' with his airships instead of our soldiers. How brilliant.
Act 1, Scene 2
Nuclear snow falls . . . .
The injured Grenadier's hill is fallout free, so we take it! Hopefully Gandhi's garrison won't heal TOO much in between turns.
-End Turn-
Turn 222, 1909 AD
Damn Gandhi and his spies. We lose a Forest Preserve and a Workshop near Smolensk. At least we kill a Frigate in between turns, but he has a Ship of the Line on the loose.
De Gaulle wants us to declare war on the Americans. No way.
Rostov: Factory < Grocer (it's shrinking)
Yaroslavl': Drydock < Ironclad (it's quick and counters Ships of the Line)
Yekaterinburg: Tactical Nuke < Artillery
I briefly consider retreating our Frigates, but then I remember that I need to defend our seafood. Godspeed, you all!
We get a Great Engineer, the brilliant Nichola Tesla. We could burn him with the Great Scientist for a Golden Age, or use him to rush something valuable like the Pentagon. +2 experience! And 1 promotion for drafted units.
I promote our Cannons to Accuracy so that they can pull down Delhi's defense in 1 turn. 80% to 0%, and our top Infantry's odds go from 73% to 99%. Not bad!
The fighting goes on into the night, but our forces have the decisive advantage. A few casualties, but no losses. Delhi is ours, but it is still trapped in Indian culture!
Get Moscow's Forest Preserve fixed. Next Great Person in 4 turns, a bit longer than expected.
Micro Yaro 'cuz I just noticed the gov' hired funny specialists instead of working the coast.
But, since there's no unhappiness anyway, draft another Infantry!
I upgrade our last Maceman into a Medic. I want to let our troops heal before moving on as many took damage in the fighting.
-End Turn-
Turn 223, 1910 AD
We lose a Camp to infiltrators. Gandhi's SotL sinks one of our Frigates and then breaks some fishing boats. Yaro will do a Work Boat after the Ironclad.
Novgorod: Submarine < Factory
The SotL is at about half strength, so I think our Frigates can finish it off.
How's that for Russian seamanship? Finished it off flawlessly at 70% odds of victory!
Looking at the Foreign Advisor tech screen, Roosey and Gandhi are able to tech Fission! But I don't think that Roosey has Uranium, and we've taken Gandhi's source.
Yikes, I really have to babysit Yaro! I'm going to set the Governor to emphasize food. Hopefully that'll keep him from hiring back specialists so often. We want it to grow! So we can draft every 2 turns!
I just noticed that some of the fallout around St. Pete DID go away on its own, but it's probably a small, random chance.
I'm drawing some reinforcements to the front line.
-End Turn-
Turn 224, 1911 AD
We're quite wealthy.
Railroad is in. We could now use that Great Engineer for Mining, Inc., too.
Yekaterinburg: Artillery < Submarine
Sub briefly docks in Moscow to pick up the nuke I rebased there. Gandhi has another Ship of the Line on the prowl, maybe going for Moscow's seafood!
Units are healing in Delhi for a couple of turns, then we're on the march again.
I slip a Work Boat into Moscow's build just in case our Crabs do get pillaged.
Switch a grassland workshop in Smolensk to a floodplains workshop and put a coastal worker on the vacated Grassland workshop. Yay! +5 base hammers, ends up as a +12 hammers.
-End Turn-
Turn 225, 1912 AD
In between turns, that SotL kills one of our Frigates, but our remaining Frigate defeats an Indian Frigate. Now . . .
Yaroslavl': Ironclad < Submarine
Yakutsk: Coal Plant < Hospital (micro the specialists)
St. Petersburg: Theatre < Forge
Strike the Work Boat from Moscow's queue as the threat is over:
Need I go on? No, but I will:
Bombay learns to love the bomb, and I land three Infantry outside (unfortunately, the defenders were only badly wounded, not wiped out). But, I have a couple of Frigates to help pound on the defenses, and reinforcements should arrive shortly.
Troops will move out of Delhi next turn.
I just noticed that Gandhi had added a Great Merchant to the Artist we embeded in St. Pete. Very nice of him.
In Delhi, just taking a closer look, too, there are TWO Great Artists, plus a merged Great General.
-End Turn-
Turn 226, 1913 AD
De Gaulle cancels our trade deal, but I'll renegotiate. I now see that the deal was lost because he lost access to the resource he was giving us. So I sell him some of our reclaimed Ivory for 14 gpt.
Moscow is going to hit the Happy Cap, so I take away the Uranium Farmer and make him a Specialist, cutting the time for the next Merchant to 19 turns.
Kill a wandering Grenadier on the way to Bombay. I will only devote a few troops to Bombay because, although the garrison is large, it is mostly Longbowmen.
Move our stack towards Vijayanagera (can't pronounce it!). I'll nuke the city next turn, and attack the turn after that.
I notice that Churchill will finally speak (he must have figured out what our nukes can do!) so I cut a deal with him. His map, some change, and some gpt.
Don't look so sad, Churchill! You've saved your citizens from the Russian bomb! . . . For now.
-End Turn-
Turn 227, 1914 AD
In between turns, lose a frigate to a SotL. Our Submarines do NOT go to the top of a defense stack.
Yekaterinburg: Submarine < Tactical Nuke
We're down 3 out of 4 Frigates, but I brought our Iron Clad to bear, so that'll help defend our (small) naval stack. Destroyers and Transports will be nice!
Merchant is dropped off on the shores of Beijing.
I drop Deep Impact on Vija.
It'll go down next turn.
I just noticed that Churchy's map reveal a new city of Gandhi's:
Bangalore is behind a mountain. Lovely.
-End Turn-
Act 1, Scene 3
Turn 228, 1915 AD
Lose a Frigate down south. I think I need to throw out a few more Ironclads. Will divert another Frigate to keep our seafood safe.
St. Pete: Forge < Granary
This isn't a fair fight:
Vaja is ours! Nothing special inside save for a merged Great Artist.
We also pop a Great General in Yaro. Gonna have him wait there to see what we want to do with him. Settling him there WOULD yield us draftees with a Promotion, but so would the Pentagon.
Our Merchant pulls in another 3150 gold. Yay!
Since we have silks from Delhi now, I cancel our imports from China to get Incense instead.
-End Turn-
Turn 229, 1916 AD
Moscow is unhappy, I'll have to turn up the Cultural Slider.
Yaroslavl': Submarine < Ironclad
We capture Bombay, taking a settled Great Engineer with it. The city seems to have retained most of its infrastructure, it has Versailles, and a lot of Spy buildings. Taking over India is really going to improve our EP rate!
India has been torn apart as the show moves into the darker second act. Can Gandhi hope to survive the relentless Russian march, or will he only flail helplessly as the bomb drops ever lower?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After the Levee, Moscow should probably get a Jail and/or a Colosseum to deal with the unhappiness and War Weariness (we're up to +10 emancipation unhappies here).
Garrison the troops in Bombay so that the heal. This excursion netted us 3 Combat III Infantry (hope the promotions weren't
, though I did with a sub: Drill II, rather than Flanking I/Navigation I). Maybe add a medic for faster healing?The guys down south need 2 turns to heal.
I cut EP spending on Gandhi entirely. We're 3 times his power, he's rapidly fading, and we'd rather see Mao's stats (I think we can get that in 4-5 turns).
One nuke is in Vija, another is in Bombay to be loaded onto the sub. To load a nuke onto a sub, the sub must be in the city that has the nuke, select the nuke and choose "load" then move the sub on its merry way. Just a heads up for those unfamiliar with nukes.
Gandhi has a lot of Workers holed up in Pataliputra, and we somehow scored one in Bombay.
But we may want to build a lot more because I'm not sure how long Fallout takes to clean up. I'm also slightly worried that the floodplains near St. Pete are ruined, but hopefully they'll be OK after some scrubbing. Also, I have a trio of workers south of St. Pete to rebuild a farm and restore an irrigation chain, so they should do that.
After the next nuke, Smolensk should probably just finish off Rock 'n Roll, and then we're going to want the Eiffle Tower pretty quickly. Those Broadcast towers will make the Cultural Slider much more effective, and the extra happies from the hits. We're going to obsolete our Furs, Ivory, and Whales pretty soon.
Tech path after Combustion? Maybe Industrialism, to get Tanks. Maybe Mass Media for Hollywood. Maybe we can tech or trade (or get from Gandhi) Communism for EP+ buildings and Mt. Rushmore.
We could do Refrigeration < Superconductors to get our Unique Building, the Research Lab, which provides +2 free scientists! But that may not be very necessary because we have a pretty good tech lead as it is. I was wondering if we'd want the SDI, but we should be able to deny Uranium to the AI pretty effectively.
So, I think: Finish Ecology < Combustion (get those Destroyers out!) < Mass Media < Industrialism (2-move tanks!) < Flight (air power to smash our enemies) < ?
Also, Pentagon with the Great Engineer somewhere? +2 XP everywhere is nothing to sneeze at.
Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Maple_Sporks_SG010_AD1916_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Excellent stuff, Whosit! 
Can't really look into details now, but I guess next player (Sengir or Norvin?) should at least wipe out the remaining cities on our continent. Well, maybe the one behind the mountain could be spared for a while if it's a pain to take (although one galleon load of units should suffice).
Do we take peace then, or do we want to wipe out Gandhi completely first? We'd need boats. Or do we rather want to prepare for an assault on Mao? I think the latter has my preference. Also in that case we need boats, a lot of them actually.
Can't really look into details now, but I guess next player (Sengir or Norvin?) should at least wipe out the remaining cities on our continent. Well, maybe the one behind the mountain could be spared for a while if it's a pain to take (although one galleon load of units should suffice).
Do we take peace then, or do we want to wipe out Gandhi completely first? We'd need boats. Or do we rather want to prepare for an assault on Mao? I think the latter has my preference. Also in that case we need boats, a lot of them actually.
Norvin_Green
Emperor
Nice job and report Whosit. Sengir is up as we swapped last time through.
lurker's comment: Hey guys. I'm seeing rather a lot of replays in your saves, and they don't all look like reloads after crashes. Please make sure you save immediately before quitting, and then play your next session form that save from the last save.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Huh. By replay, do you mean how many times the save was opened? I know for this set I had to stop in the middle and come back to it later. Should I have uploaded the save I made to save my place? Or is this actually playing a turn and going back one? I haven't done that.
Nope! I see indications that players are opening the save, playing part of the next turn, then re-opening the save to play the set.
If you move the game forward you must save it at that point and then continue from the new save.
If you move the game forward you must save it at that point and then continue from the new save.
Mmm, that sounds rather unfortunate. I'm pretty sure none of us is consciously guilty of foul play, but we may have habits inherited from playing regular SGs that technically are not allowed here.
For instance, if it's your turn and you think, let's change the tile configuration of Moscow, or hire this or that specialist here or there, you might actually try that out and then go to the forum for discussion without actually saving. Later after discussion you reload the initial save and apply whatever you discussed. Does that count as a reload? Now I'm afraid it does. Note that nothing irreversible has been done by trying another tile configuration and I guess it's common practice in normal SGs.
Other examples of reversible actions we may be guilty of is clicking something else in the build queue just to see how many turns it takes. Or moving the sliders. Again, rather common practice in regular SGs, but I'm afraid that without saving afterwards that will count as reloads here.
I think in general we've been conscious enough of not doing irreversible things like moving units, actually taking deals or even hitting end turn.
I'm also wondering, when it's NOT your turn and you do something with the save like described, is the software that intelligent that later when it is your turn and you upload the set somehow it has a mark saying "reloaded"? I don't ask to see how far we can stretch it, but maybe people are less conscious of not "fiddling" with the save when it's not their turn.
Of course we're SGOTM newbies and in our enthusiasm (I think nobody can deny us our enthusiasm!) we could have done things like I described above, thinking it was within limits, while it wasn't. We may have broken rules like that, but not the spirit of those rules, in my humble opinion.
So really all I can say is sorry. I really think none of us wants to do things against the rules. Of course I can only hope it won't have consequences. Well, we probably won't occupy the highest places in the rankings anyway, but of course we'll be eager to know how we will compare to the other teams.
I guess the lesson learned is, SAVE EVERY SINGLE TIME after looking at the save!
Let me end by saying that I greatly enjoy playing the SGOTM and I really want to thank you AlanH and the whole GOTM staff for hosting this.
For instance, if it's your turn and you think, let's change the tile configuration of Moscow, or hire this or that specialist here or there, you might actually try that out and then go to the forum for discussion without actually saving. Later after discussion you reload the initial save and apply whatever you discussed. Does that count as a reload? Now I'm afraid it does. Note that nothing irreversible has been done by trying another tile configuration and I guess it's common practice in normal SGs.
Other examples of reversible actions we may be guilty of is clicking something else in the build queue just to see how many turns it takes. Or moving the sliders. Again, rather common practice in regular SGs, but I'm afraid that without saving afterwards that will count as reloads here.
I think in general we've been conscious enough of not doing irreversible things like moving units, actually taking deals or even hitting end turn.
I'm also wondering, when it's NOT your turn and you do something with the save like described, is the software that intelligent that later when it is your turn and you upload the set somehow it has a mark saying "reloaded"? I don't ask to see how far we can stretch it, but maybe people are less conscious of not "fiddling" with the save when it's not their turn.
Of course we're SGOTM newbies and in our enthusiasm (I think nobody can deny us our enthusiasm!
) we could have done things like I described above, thinking it was within limits, while it wasn't. We may have broken rules like that, but not the spirit of those rules, in my humble opinion.So really all I can say is sorry. I really think none of us wants to do things against the rules. Of course I can only hope it won't have consequences. Well, we probably won't occupy the highest places in the rankings anyway, but of course we'll be eager to know how we will compare to the other teams.
I guess the lesson learned is, SAVE EVERY SINGLE TIME after looking at the save!
Let me end by saying that I greatly enjoy playing the SGOTM and I really want to thank you AlanH and the whole GOTM staff for hosting this.
Not completely sure anymore about what's allowed and what not. I'm thinking fiddling with the sliders/build queues/techpath might be the culprit.
Moscow: Levee > Factory
Orenburg: Observatory > Uni (it is indeed worthwile to build them, they should pay back themselves in 1/3th the time it takes to build them, and it will still take some time to get every city under control).
Novgorod: Factory > Hospital > Coal Plant > Destroyers
Rostov: Grocer > wealth? or drydock > transports
Yaroslavl': Ironclads untill destroyers come around
Yekaterinburg: Ironclad > TacNukes untill the end of time probably (fire the spy in favor of a merchant). It could also do a 4t grocer to be able to run 1 additional scientist and even out the food (I think that we should do that).
Yakutsk: Hospital > Destroyers
Vlad: steady as she goes
Smolensk: TacNuke > RnR > Eiffel Tower
St-Pete: Fire the spy, build health buildings + production buildings and start pumping units
Delhi: I'd configure it for production as well: health+ production buildings, destroy the towns in favor of farms + workshops; mine the hills.
Bombay: should also be able to get a halfway decent production, Vija... sure why not
Techpath:
Ecology > Combustion > Refrigeration (extra move on the boats) <> MM (can be done before refrigeration as well) > Industrialism;
Fascism could be nice as well: Mt Rushmore and Paratroopers
Don't think we will need flight soon, as we've got nukes
War with Ghandi:
I'm thinking that if we load up two galleons with units and a sub with nukes, we should be able to kill off Ghandi in one go. That would alleviate some unhappiness problems (especially in the conquered cities, but it should also lower the emancipation unhappies). Shouldn't take more then 5 turns in total (provided we can get the nukes out fast enough).
GE: can he build the pentagon in one turn? Could be worth it I think, not really sure. GA is nice as well. GG... if we don't build the pentagon he should go in Yaroslavl', otherwise... uhm, dunno.
Also, got it for tomorrow.
Moscow: Levee > Factory
Orenburg: Observatory > Uni (it is indeed worthwile to build them, they should pay back themselves in 1/3th the time it takes to build them, and it will still take some time to get every city under control).
Novgorod: Factory > Hospital > Coal Plant > Destroyers
Rostov: Grocer > wealth? or drydock > transports
Yaroslavl': Ironclads untill destroyers come around
Yekaterinburg: Ironclad > TacNukes untill the end of time probably (fire the spy in favor of a merchant). It could also do a 4t grocer to be able to run 1 additional scientist and even out the food (I think that we should do that).
Yakutsk: Hospital > Destroyers
Vlad: steady as she goes
Smolensk: TacNuke > RnR > Eiffel Tower
St-Pete: Fire the spy, build health buildings + production buildings and start pumping units
Delhi: I'd configure it for production as well: health+ production buildings, destroy the towns in favor of farms + workshops; mine the hills.
Bombay: should also be able to get a halfway decent production, Vija... sure why not
Techpath:
Ecology > Combustion > Refrigeration (extra move on the boats) <> MM (can be done before refrigeration as well) > Industrialism;
Fascism could be nice as well: Mt Rushmore and Paratroopers
Don't think we will need flight soon, as we've got nukes
War with Ghandi:
I'm thinking that if we load up two galleons with units and a sub with nukes, we should be able to kill off Ghandi in one go. That would alleviate some unhappiness problems (especially in the conquered cities, but it should also lower the emancipation unhappies). Shouldn't take more then 5 turns in total (provided we can get the nukes out fast enough).
GE: can he build the pentagon in one turn? Could be worth it I think, not really sure. GA is nice as well. GG... if we don't build the pentagon he should go in Yaroslavl', otherwise... uhm, dunno.
Also, got it for tomorrow.
Reversible changes should not be a problem. irreversible changes are a concern, whoever makes them, and whether or not it's their turn to play.
I'm aware that you guys are new to the GOTM/SGOTMs, and I applaud your enthusiastic approach to the game. I'm only raising a gentle warning to remind you to ensure that you take note of the rules.
I'm aware that you guys are new to the GOTM/SGOTMs, and I applaud your enthusiastic approach to the game. I'm only raising a gentle warning to remind you to ensure that you take note of the rules.
Do you need mass media for Eiffel Tower's broadcast towers to become effective? If not, I'd give priority to fascism and refrigeration over MM.
Anyhow, I wonder if we shouldn't go for Industrialism directly after combustion. Tanks are of course the ideal 2 move units to quickly capture cities after nuking them. Battleships and marines ain't bad either. I do like the extra water movement from refrigeration, but to reach Mao, we don't really need that yet, as he's close. It will be convenient when we have to sail further to Roosey and DG, but presumably that will be later. So I rather have tanks sooner.
Builds sound good.
War with Gandhi, do you mean we can completely wipe him out in 5 turns?! If so, go for it! His island cities to the west seemed a bit far away to me to be able to do it that quickly. Also we're short on boats as far as I remember, although some extra galleons can of course be cranked out quickly if needed.
The GE, mmm... Maybe a GA would be great to get to these remaining key techs a bit quicker. I don't think we'll miss any of those wonders we're looking for anyway and with our new acquisitions we have more places available to build wonders, so less need to rush them. Of course a GA also increases production output and the ever important GPP generation.
Are we looking for any civics changes until the end of the game? Could imagine FM instead of merc, although in rep merc is nice of course and if we war a lot FM shines less, so I guess we may stay with the current civics until the end (emancipation permitting...).
GG whatever... Maybe even a supermedic could be useful to keep our advance in enemy lands going faster.
Anyhow, I wonder if we shouldn't go for Industrialism directly after combustion. Tanks are of course the ideal 2 move units to quickly capture cities after nuking them. Battleships and marines ain't bad either. I do like the extra water movement from refrigeration, but to reach Mao, we don't really need that yet, as he's close. It will be convenient when we have to sail further to Roosey and DG, but presumably that will be later. So I rather have tanks sooner.
Builds sound good.
War with Gandhi, do you mean we can completely wipe him out in 5 turns?! If so, go for it! His island cities to the west seemed a bit far away to me to be able to do it that quickly. Also we're short on boats as far as I remember, although some extra galleons can of course be cranked out quickly if needed.
The GE, mmm... Maybe a GA would be great to get to these remaining key techs a bit quicker. I don't think we'll miss any of those wonders we're looking for anyway and with our new acquisitions we have more places available to build wonders, so less need to rush them. Of course a GA also increases production output and the ever important GPP generation.
Are we looking for any civics changes until the end of the game? Could imagine FM instead of merc, although in rep merc is nice of course and if we war a lot FM shines less, so I guess we may stay with the current civics until the end (emancipation permitting...).
GG whatever... Maybe even a supermedic could be useful to keep our advance in enemy lands going faster.
Okay, as law-abiding citizens we surely do take note!
So to make it clear beyond any doubt, we are allowed to do any of the following reversible changes with the save?
- Change worked tiles in city screens
- Assign/unassign specialists
- Change build queues
- Move sliders
- Change tech selection
- Check what deals you can get with the AI (without taking them of course)
If these are allowed and do not count as reloads, I do wonder what might have happened, especially as you say it has been rather frequent.
As I understand definite no-no's include
- Moving units
- Promoting units
- Other irreversible unit actions (worker actions, great people usage, usage of executives/missionaries)
- Making deals (including war/peace declarations)
- Hit end turn
I don't know if there's an explicit reference to these things somewhere.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Yeah . . . we should be extra careful to save anything we do. Though, when a player presents the save for others to look at, and they do, does that count as reloading the save multiple times? Or, so . . . If player A puts up the save . . . player B goes next . . . player B looks at the save to get an idea of what's going on, then closes the save for later, and comes back to the same file . . . is that counted as multiple reloads? In that case, should player B take look, save the game, then open his new save to proceed?
War with Gandhi: I'm guessing the 5-turn estimate is for kicking Gandhi off the landmass, although that still seems optimistic to me. We don't have enough transport boats, and, I think we have 3 subs now, but a sub carries 1 nuke at a time. We should probably leave Gandhi's islands alone once he's off the continent and focus on Mao.
On the other hand, having read about this issue in some other reports elsewhere (older ones, but I bet the problem remains), killing Gandhi now will remove that war weariness and it will be one Civ less that has Emancipation. Perhaps it won't be too bad. We may want to build a couple more Galleons, but we can devote a small task-force to clearing the island. 2-3 subs, a relatively small force of Infantry, they can probably clear out the islands (most likely needing a small flow of reinforcements as units take garrison duty) while the rest of our empire cleans up and gears for war with Mao.
Great People: The Great Engineer probably won't finish the Pentagon in one go. I had a weird experience in another game, so I wonder if he'll put more hammers towards something depending on the production capacity of a town. And after a spirited discussion with S.ilver in another SG, I'm not sure that a Golden Age would be the most effective thing to do with our Great People. Production cities would get a fair benefit, yes, and our Great People points would increase, but most of our commerce is from specialists, so that won't increase. Much.
The Eiffel Tower's Broadcast Towers don't need Mass Media to be effective.
Now, my opinion on our captured Indian territory . . . . I'm not so sure that we should tear up Towns and Villages. We're going to want to maintain a good financial base, and as our acquisitions increase, the ability of our core to sustain that will weaken. Granted, it's fairly late in the game to build new cottages, especially since we won't be running emancipation, but anything that survives the nukes should probably be left alone. (Discussions with S.ilver about the efficiency of Specialist economies vs. Cottage economies fresh in my mind.) Of course, we may still find it necessary to build up new "merchant towns" or "scientist" towns to keep the economy going. Not being able to switch to State Property might end up being a pain, though I think Free Market should still be considered, just to reduce corporation costs. Probably worth the loss of a specialist everywhere, but dunno for sure.
Oh, and 'nother comment on tech path . . . Flight may still be valuable for a few reasons: Planes may be useful in naval combat, and any other combat situation that doesn't require a nuke. Recon would be nice, too. Also, we can quickly ship troops to other continents.
I agree with nocho that Industrialism is probably next after Combustion. Getting tanks online quickly should be a priority.
And for clarification . . .
Roster:
-sturick: taking a break
-Whosit: made things go BOOM
-Sengir: Up
-Sirloin: OUT
-Norvin_Green: waiting
-nocho: watching
War with Gandhi: I'm guessing the 5-turn estimate is for kicking Gandhi off the landmass, although that still seems optimistic to me. We don't have enough transport boats, and, I think we have 3 subs now, but a sub carries 1 nuke at a time. We should probably leave Gandhi's islands alone once he's off the continent and focus on Mao.
On the other hand, having read about this issue in some other reports elsewhere (older ones, but I bet the problem remains), killing Gandhi now will remove that war weariness and it will be one Civ less that has Emancipation. Perhaps it won't be too bad. We may want to build a couple more Galleons, but we can devote a small task-force to clearing the island. 2-3 subs, a relatively small force of Infantry, they can probably clear out the islands (most likely needing a small flow of reinforcements as units take garrison duty) while the rest of our empire cleans up and gears for war with Mao.
Great People: The Great Engineer probably won't finish the Pentagon in one go. I had a weird experience in another game, so I wonder if he'll put more hammers towards something depending on the production capacity of a town. And after a spirited discussion with S.ilver in another SG, I'm not sure that a Golden Age would be the most effective thing to do with our Great People. Production cities would get a fair benefit, yes, and our Great People points would increase, but most of our commerce is from specialists, so that won't increase. Much.
The Eiffel Tower's Broadcast Towers don't need Mass Media to be effective.
Now, my opinion on our captured Indian territory . . . . I'm not so sure that we should tear up Towns and Villages. We're going to want to maintain a good financial base, and as our acquisitions increase, the ability of our core to sustain that will weaken. Granted, it's fairly late in the game to build new cottages, especially since we won't be running emancipation, but anything that survives the nukes should probably be left alone. (Discussions with S.ilver about the efficiency of Specialist economies vs. Cottage economies fresh in my mind.) Of course, we may still find it necessary to build up new "merchant towns" or "scientist" towns to keep the economy going. Not being able to switch to State Property might end up being a pain, though I think Free Market should still be considered, just to reduce corporation costs. Probably worth the loss of a specialist everywhere, but dunno for sure.
Oh, and 'nother comment on tech path . . . Flight may still be valuable for a few reasons: Planes may be useful in naval combat, and any other combat situation that doesn't require a nuke. Recon would be nice, too. Also, we can quickly ship troops to other continents.
I agree with nocho that Industrialism is probably next after Combustion. Getting tanks online quickly should be a priority.
And for clarification . . .
Roster:
-sturick: taking a break
-Whosit: made things go BOOM
-Sengir: Up
-Sirloin: OUT
-Norvin_Green: waiting
-nocho: watching
Norvin_Green
Emperor
Yikes about the reloads. This is what I think is happening. Its my turn to play so I open the save to see the cities etc., compare notes on what everyone is suggesting, check city builds and so forth and then close the game without saving. Later on I load the game up from there which probably prompts a "reload" to get flagged or marked. Granted I didn't change anything permanently on the initial save but I did open it. I think what we might want to consider is that when we do this we save before closing even if though no changes were made. This would eliminate it looking like a reload.
I too want echo nocho's sentiments of appreciation for AlanH and the civ staff!
As to the game I agree with Sengir on eliminating Gandhi completely first. Not sure about the civics we will want to keep for the rest of the game or what to do with our GP's.
I too want echo nocho's sentiments of appreciation for AlanH and the civ staff!
As to the game I agree with Sengir on eliminating Gandhi completely first. Not sure about the civics we will want to keep for the rest of the game or what to do with our GP's.
@nocho: Your lists look about right, though are you sure there are no irreversible effects if you change a current build or a tech selection and create an overflow? There isn't a definitive list. If in doubt - don't do it!
@Whosit & Norvin_Green: Team members are not allowed to try irreversible moves and changes and then let the team revert to an earlier position. Any player can load the latest save. If they change it irreversibly then they have changed the game state, so that state must be saved and becomes the new latest save. If two of you load and change the same save, then you create a problem.
FWIW. I'm not sure I understand why there's this preoccupation with loading the save and fiddling with the controls. I consider it dangerous for several people to be doing this sort of thing between turn sets, as it increases the chances that someone will either make a mistake and move something, or be tempted to do so deliberately.
@Whosit & Norvin_Green: Team members are not allowed to try irreversible moves and changes and then let the team revert to an earlier position. Any player can load the latest save. If they change it irreversibly then they have changed the game state, so that state must be saved and becomes the new latest save. If two of you load and change the same save, then you create a problem.
FWIW. I'm not sure I understand why there's this preoccupation with loading the save and fiddling with the controls. I consider it dangerous for several people to be doing this sort of thing between turn sets, as it increases the chances that someone will either make a mistake and move something, or be tempted to do so deliberately.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
As a quick aside, I got a message from someone who is, I guess, a lurker, who said that the number of hammers a Great Engineer contributes is based the size of the city he is in. I still think that the Pentagon Wonder is something that we really want, so we should probably either get started on it or try to rush it somewhere.
5 turns is what it is going to take after we kick him of the continent (though I'd need to know beforehand, because it'd mean different moves then when I'd make peace after kicking Ghandi of OUR continent).
If we burn the GE for a GA, we can go for FM for the duration of the GA and switch back to Merc on asap/on the last turn, depending on how we value it. I might have time to calculate it tonight... not sure though. Also not quite sure whether the GA is going to gives us enough to burn the GE+GS for it. We could use the GE for a wonder, and the GS would partbulb Flight after we research Combustion.
If we burn the GE for a GA, we can go for FM for the duration of the GA and switch back to Merc on asap/on the last turn, depending on how we value it. I might have time to calculate it tonight... not sure though. Also not quite sure whether the GA is going to gives us enough to burn the GE+GS for it. We could use the GE for a wonder, and the GS would partbulb Flight after we research Combustion.
@AlanH, Indeed I guess we may be slightly over-eager to all open the save after each set to check everything out. If it only takes one of us to make a small change to the "game state" which results in a reload, then I guess an error of that kind is quickly made. So, well, let's all try to get our information more from "mouse-over" actions, than actually clicking too many things!
@Sengir, if it only takes 5 turns more after kicking Gandhi off of our continent to completely eliminate him, then that must be worth it, regarding unhappiness, motherland yearning, emancipation and what not. Meanwhile I guess we'll fully gear up for an attack on Mao.
Regarding the GS and the GE, to be honest I don't really have much preference on what to do with them. To me they are kind of annoying bonuses for not getting GMs! GE for a wonder is fine as well, it would rush the equivalent of a bunch of nukes or transports so that's good... (time not spent on building the wonder). And GS for flight is also fine, at least better than satellites which would've been bulbed before.
@Sengir, if it only takes 5 turns more after kicking Gandhi off of our continent to completely eliminate him, then that must be worth it, regarding unhappiness, motherland yearning, emancipation and what not. Meanwhile I guess we'll fully gear up for an attack on Mao.
Regarding the GS and the GE, to be honest I don't really have much preference on what to do with them. To me they are kind of annoying bonuses for not getting GMs!
GE for a wonder is fine as well, it would rush the equivalent of a bunch of nukes or transports so that's good... (time not spent on building the wonder). And GS for flight is also fine, at least better than satellites which would've been bulbed before.What are the wonders we want from this point on? We can probably build most of them, if not all, but we should really just build those that are going to help us get a conquest victory sooner.
Open now are (out of the top of my head)
RnR (partly done in Smolensk)
Eiffel Tower (Nice in combination with the happy wonders, should alleviate the happy problems caused by emancipation).
Pentagon (starting xp on all troops... even though we nuke almost everything doesn't mean we can't use the xp. Especially on ships it will be nice).
CR (I don't think we will be changing civics that much. So I think we shouldn't build it).
Yet to come:
Hollywood (I suppose we should go for the last one as well. Not the highest priority atm because the AI's are not near it yet).
Three gorges dam (relatively nice, but we are solving our health problems with food, so I don't think it is really worth the hammers in this game).
Internet (we are techleaders at this point, we don't really need computers and the AI are probably not going to get far in tech (as we are going to nuke them back into the stone age... I think that I'm going to mod something where every time you nuke an opponent they'll randomly loose a tech)
SDI (is nice, I'd rather not be nuked in return)
Space Elevator is probably not available, because space has been disabled, same goes for UN
Statue of Liberty: Probably gone by the time we get there
Mt Rushmore (nice to have, as we'll be warring quite a lot )
Kremlin: Probably gone as well, and not necessary as well.
So, my list would be:
RnR
Eiffel Tower
Pentagon
Hollywood
SDI
Mt Rushmore
As far as I can tell, none of the wonders are in danger, but the AI's are only one tech short of building the Pentagon, so I guess we should burn the GE on that. (GS for flight)
Techpath should be:
Ecology > Industrialism > Fascism
MM, flight and refrigeration slotted in where convenient (MM probably as soon as we see that an AI has Radio, to ensure we get Hollywood; flight probably before refrigeration).
Open now are (out of the top of my head)
RnR (partly done in Smolensk)
Eiffel Tower (Nice in combination with the happy wonders, should alleviate the happy problems caused by emancipation).
Pentagon (starting xp on all troops... even though we nuke almost everything doesn't mean we can't use the xp. Especially on ships it will be nice).
CR (I don't think we will be changing civics that much. So I think we shouldn't build it).
Yet to come:
Hollywood (I suppose we should go for the last one as well. Not the highest priority atm because the AI's are not near it yet).
Three gorges dam (relatively nice, but we are solving our health problems with food, so I don't think it is really worth the hammers in this game).
Internet (we are techleaders at this point, we don't really need computers and the AI are probably not going to get far in tech (as we are going to nuke them back into the stone age... I think that I'm going to mod something where every time you nuke an opponent they'll randomly loose a tech
)SDI (is nice, I'd rather not be nuked in return)
Space Elevator is probably not available, because space has been disabled, same goes for UN
Statue of Liberty: Probably gone by the time we get there
Mt Rushmore (nice to have, as we'll be warring quite a lot
)Kremlin: Probably gone as well, and not necessary as well.
So, my list would be:
RnR
Eiffel Tower
Pentagon
Hollywood
SDI
Mt Rushmore
As far as I can tell, none of the wonders are in danger, but the AI's are only one tech short of building the Pentagon, so I guess we should burn the GE on that. (GS for flight)
Techpath should be:
Ecology > Industrialism > Fascism
MM, flight and refrigeration slotted in where convenient (MM probably as soon as we see that an AI has Radio, to ensure we get Hollywood; flight probably before refrigeration).
I just had a thought, could it be worth it to extort some techs from Gandhi? Like leaving him 1 city for his techs and then redeclare 10 turns later and finish him off. I was thinking that particularly Military Science will be very much worth it given that we'll be warring a lot so Military Academies with some great generals which we'll be producing quite a lot in some specific places for the +50% unit production will be great. We could research it ourselves (3 turns), but I think letting Gandhi live for 10 turns more in exchange for MS (if possible of course) could be a good enough deal.
Your wonderlist looks fine btw. Maybe I'd put Mt Rushmore a bit higher though...
Your wonderlist looks fine btw. Maybe I'd put Mt Rushmore a bit higher though...
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