good to see you got it workingTank_Guy#3 said:Thanks for your help. By the way, this scenario looks awesome.
Uh, I tried before posting. But after I posted the above lines and tried it again, it ran. Yes, it does have fast-a$$ loading times.
Anthropoid said:El Justo, thanks for your comments by email about the myriad possible changes I dreamed up. Unfortunately, I think you guys are absolutely right about the alliances. How annoying this AI is! Within two turns, France was at war against Turkey, and Spain was at war with Scandinavia!
Anthropoid said:
Surtur said:
thanks Adler. i'll take a look at it.Adler17 said:
Anthropoid,Anthropoid said:ADDIT: SEE BELOW
Turn one of the PBEM has been finished by Anthropoid and sent on to El Justo.
Just curious, what do the Resources: "Europe, Scandinavia, EU, Greece, and Turkey" do for me, or someone with whom I might trade them? Is it intended that these can be traded?
El Justo, thanks for your comments by email about the myriad possible changes I dreamed up. Unfortunately, I think you guys are absolutely right about the alliances. How annoying this AI is! Within two turns, France was at war against Turkey, and Spain was at war with Scandinavia!
Not sure the E2C plane is actually working like it is supposed to. It only seems to get one move in my version of 1.51 in my America-Demi-God game.
Re: possible changes to governments for the SP version. The only thing I'd suggest is considering making N. Vietnam, South Africa, and either Argentina or Columbia all non-aligned Fascisms, that do not have to pay military support or something like that. The idea being, a wild-card AI, that will build a large but technological 2nd or 3rd string military and cause problems. As it is, I think there is not enough action in Africa, SE Asia, and Latin America.
Thought you guys might find the following quote interesting. It is from "Secret Armies: Inside the American, Soviet, and European Special Forces" (1987) by James Adams, The Atlantic Monthly Press, New York.
"Small wars play a very significant role in contemporary international geo-politics. It has been estimated that in 1986 there were forty armed conflicts taking place, involving forty-five of the world's 165 nations. This figure, startling as it is, still does not adequately refletc the true situation: neither the isolated activities of terrorist groups nor the many brief but bloody attempts at revolution in Third World countries are included in it, since these are generally defined as being at a lower level of conflict than formal warfare."
I do not think it would be in error to increase the role of Special Forces, invisible units, etc. in either the SP or the MP version. In the "The Missing Links" mod, there are a number of invisible units buildable, and the AI does a pretty darn good (and annoying!) job of making use of these by building them in large numbers and picking at any unprotected workers, missionaries, or weak defending units.
ADDIT: also, I think that, the rate at which nukes are generated might need to be upped. At present, there is virtually no threat of nuclear holocaust. I've used up ALL of my nukes, and had only TWO cities be flattened (Miami in like 1951, and it has subsequently been regenerated to a massive, prosperous megalopolis, Riyadh in like 1965, and it is still devastated, and might never be fixed. All of the Soviet and Central African cities I hit, have most all the pollution cleaned up, but are still backwards as far as infrastructure. Part of what was distinctive about the Cold War period in history, is the importance of small proxy wars, not full-scale tank division sieges, and fleets of strategic bombers. The AI should have enough nukes that it can TRULY threaten global devastation if the human player gets a tad too pushy. Related to this, I think the Democracies should have to deal with more corruption. My African, Middle Eastern and Russian cities under control should be nearly as much of a liability as they are a benefit, but in fact, they are contributing in a BIG way to my economics, and even some of them are creating units periodically. I think my economy is super-SUPER strong, and some adjustments to make that a bit less of a boon for the human may be in order. I am making like 6000gp per turn, AND finishing Techs in 6 turns. I'm rushing loads of units, and not even bothering much to build infrastructure in the more distant parts of my empire now.
Here is a report on my America SP game, on Demi-God diffulty: Oct 1968 The Russians only control two towns west of the Urals: Murmansk and Archange'lsk. The Scandinavians (with lots of air support from US) took a strip of towns down toward Yarsolavl and all the way to Sverklovsk and Nivzhiny. US controls Rostov, Mashbad, Ashbagat, Kashi, and Yinchuan.
US is at war with China, and moving a stack of a corps, 20 M-60s, ~10 marines, 7 Apaches, 36 aardvarks, 10 F-15s, 5 F-14s, 10 A-10s, and sundry M-113s, and modern infantry deeper into Chinease territory. I have an invasion force of about 12 marines, 12 M-60s, 7 CVs, 7 DDs, 10 mod inf, 6 airborne, etc., ready to move in on Argentina when it is convenient. Shortly after my last report, the Russians used there last remaining ICBM to cream Riyadh. We're losing some forest to global warming about every 5 turn or so I'd guess. Central Africa is down to only Madagascar.
The capitalist pigs have about 84% of population, and about 68% of land. Need 85 of pop and 80 of land to win a Domination win. Figure I can win it before 1973. I'm only getting about 1% of land area per two cities conquested, so this one might just involve complete Capitalist Pig Domination of all the non=aligned nations.
hi Surtur.Surtur said:
El Justo said:hi Surtur.
those are some neat ideas you have there...however, removing the 'invisible' flag from the subs would do a great disservice to the naval warfare aspect of the scenario. iow, it essentially makes naval transit wayyyy easier. plus, it'd render building subs as useless b/c of all of the rest of the surface vessels that can be built. this is the main reason i flagged them as invisible...ie, to give them a 'raison d'etre'.
i wouldn't change this for the subs for my versions but you're completely free to do as you wish for your game(s).
. . I made some changes for my version trying to increase realism. First I placed the immobile invisible units to start wars in korea and india/pakistan. This works quite well in the beginning. I also changed the situation in Africa, added 2 cities and gave some to the european colonists. Also placed some vp there. I gave Central Africa a small wonder buildable in the 50s or 60s which produces some offensive units who have the "unknown owner" flag. I hope they will conquer or destroy cities in Africa without starting wars to simulate the independences of most African states. Didn't play as long to test this. I also wanted to simulate the delivery of arms in the cold war. So I gave the Warsaw Pact and the US a unique resource which they can trade with other states. States who have this resource can build some of the soviet (or US) weapons/tanks/airforce cheaper and maybe earlier without researching the required tech. I am not so sure how to balance this right and which weapons were used in delivery of arms. However this would be an interesting possibility to support countries who are not in your alliance without starting your own war. Maybe this could also be interesting for your multiplayer version. .
El Justo said:hi Surtur.
those are some neat ideas you have there...however, removing the 'invisible' flag from the subs would do a great disservice to the naval warfare aspect of the scenario. iow, it essentially makes naval transit wayyyy easier. plus, it'd render building subs as useless b/c of all of the rest of the surface vessels that can be built. this is the main reason i flagged them as invisible...ie, to give them a 'raison d'etre'.
i wouldn't change this for the subs for my versions but you're completely free to do as you wish for your game(s).
i would like to see how the invisible land unit method you desribed works out in testing. to be able to 'trigger' wars may definitely be a good thing...
El Justo said:
) it seems moot if the human player's are invisible. And as far as the AI having or using subs, I do not think I have EVER seen the AI use modern naval units in ANYTHING remotely resembling a smart tactic, so it would seem to be largely moot for that too.Anthropoid said:Re: the sub issue, I'm gonna try it for the SP game and see what I can do. True, for an MP game, subs obviously should be invisible, but for SP, given that AI "KNOWS" they're there ANYWAY (but then "ACTS" like it doesn't know they're there, and runs into them "accidentally !?!
The general idea I'm coming to for this mod is that, maximizing realism at least at the outset, might be a tad easier by focusing on getting all the editor settings "right" for only ONE of the human playable tribes. The incredible work you guys have done El Justo totally sets up for this to be done! So, I'm kinda messing around, trying to adjust things so that it is set up good for the human to play America.
Rocoteh said:
I_batman said:
) that you guys realize I am VERY appreciative of your work, and of the challenges involved in making a scenario like the "Cold War" using the C3C game engine. You guys have done an incredible job balancing the units, the production rates, the map, and many other aspects of the mod. It is an interesting question, which is unfortunately central to this issue of "realism vs. playability," as well as the practicalities of actual editor settings and AI limitations.
I hope my lack of ability to accomplish the incredible work you guys HAVE already done does not mean that my comments are hypocritical. I cannot even begin to do what you guys have done in getting things set right in the editor. But as a player, I was able to beat the AI on Demi-God playing US far too easily, and it is this that I am saying indicates an impetus to alter things to "be more realistic." And then of course, there is always the issue of the stupid AI, which we will never be able to overcome for C3C, as well as the issue that C4 will be out soon, and some or all of those AI difficulties might be circumventable with that much more moddable engine. Most lesser men would have gotten disgusted and given up a _LONG_ time ago (e.g., _me_ with my American Revolution mod ). The fact that you ARE still engaged in discussion, suggests to me that you guys remain interested in feedback, and in the possibility that the mod could be made even better than it already is, and my comments are intended to provide constructive feedback, to quench your apparent thirsts to keep improving it.
