SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

Thanks for the screenshot. I can see a few things from it.

EDIT: Here's that screenshot again, since my message appeared on a different page from that screenshot:


1. Pig + Gems City isn't viable as a Legendary-to-be City, which is going to make a Cultural Victory even more unlikely (boo, Neil)


2. Pig + Gems City could be settled in 1 of 4 locations to grab both Resources and remain coastal... there is a 5th non-coastal possibility (3W of Delhi aka SE + E of the GH Pig) but I doubt that we'd opt for that option... although, that said, it would be the most feasible Legendary-to-be location, since:
i. We'd actually have sufficient production squares if we shared production with the capital
AND
ii. It would be very low Maintenance
AND
iii. It would allow for the use of up to 4 Grassland Hills squares for production-purposes when the cpaital isn't using 3 of them and could share up to 2 Cottages for use when the capital isn't using them
AND
iv. It has a ton of useable squares plus only 2 non-Lighthouse-able Coastal squares

The other Legendary-to-be location that I would consider is NW + W + W of Delhi, i.e. 2E of the GH Pig--it would have less Grassland Cottages that it could work but it would gain the ability to build a Lighthouse for its 4 Coastal squres and would have access to the same Grassland Hills squares PLUS would pick up an additional Grassland Hills square.

The major downside is that neither the GH Pig nor the GRiv Gems would be workable until the City's borders expanded. A minor downside is that it would be even lower on Food.


The location 1W of the GRiv Gems and 2S of the GH Pig looks to be terrible.

The location 1N of the GRiv Gem and 1SE of the GH Pig looks to be very poor for long-term production.

The location 2N of the GRiv Gem and 1E of the GH Pig would let us start improving the Pig Resource right away and picks up a Grassland Hills square, but it's not amazing in the long run (unless there is a Fish Resource to the NW of the GH Pig) and it might even be the location of a Horse Resource (a Plains square with Forests around it looks semi-suspicious for a possible Horse location).


Realistically, if we are going to either build Stonehenge or immediately Chop out a Monument in the Pig + Gems City, I would aim to settle 2E of the GH Pig (NW + W + W) of Delhi as being the strongest location in that area, even if we would have to wait until our Cultural Borders expanded to work either the Pig or the Gem.

To mitigate this fact, we could aim to have the Grassland River that is 1E of the Gem be farmed when the City is founded.

If we liked this location, we'd also want to Chop the PFor that is NW + W + W of Delhi before settling on top of that square, so as not to waste that Forest.


3. Whether we go for Cultural or whether we go for another Victory Condition but plan to use Bureaucracy, a Cow + Deer location would be useful for upgrading 3 Grassland River Cottages for the capital. As a result, I'm even more set on settling the Corn to go with the Gold (i.e. settling Gold-1E).


4. Fortunately, we don't need to stand on the GH Pig to see the square to the NW of the GH Pig (i.e. to spot if there is a Fish Resource there or not)--we can also see that square from the GH square with the "T21 Lion" sign on it, but I'd be tempted to lose a few turns of exploration with that Warrior in favour of avoiding a battle with a Lion.

EDIT: Here's the old screenshot for reference:


Oh yeah, I forgot to say that due to the 2-square-radius rule for not settling a second City, the only feasible locations for settling by the Cow are:
a) on top of the Cow (which would be totally terrible)
OR
b) to get the Cow + Deer by settling E + E + E + E of Delhi (on the GFor Riv NE of the Deer)

By settling at location b), we make settling at Gold-1N impossible.

Or, looking at it another way, we can't settle at Gold-1N and still be able to make use of the Cow.

Thus, settling at Gold-1E looks like our best bet. Gold-2E could also work but would delay the working of the Gold and would also mean that we'd potentially waste some Grassland Hills squares that would otherwise be really nice to work.

As such, I'd say full-steam ahead on Animal Husbandry as our next tech and Hunting can safely be delayed for quite some time (we might not need it until we're ready to settle a 5th City, assuming that we go #2 = Gold, #3 = Gem, #4 = Marble). Even if we skip or delay Marble City in favour of settling Deer + Cow, we won't need Hunting until City #4 at the earliest.

Do we know that he won't beat us to corn with a settler? Based on the fact his city just grew or something more?

It'll take 95 food-hammers for Toku to build a settler, and he's producing 10/turn, and started at the earliest at t22. Since he'll take an escort Archer we'll have plenty of time.

It's time for us to give up on a Japanese worker, and get our warrior out of there before we get booted by Toku's culture onto a tile we don't want to be on. We can go N t23, NW t24, N t25 (or similar).

The Lion on the way to Babylon is one we'll want to fight, I'm afraid - we will need to know before long whether there's an awesome city site there. We can do it on the river+hill for 95% odds with a chance that the lion is out of range, or on the river+forest for higher odds without this chance.

Bear in mind that Gold-NW might turn out to be the right spot, if there's something in the fog, and then the corn will be free for a city north of Kyoto.

So, with OF, he can build a settler by T31 and get it there by about T33-34? We have 4t of walking + how many of build? 6-7?

I agree on dropping the warrior back into fogbust, and also wanna scout towards Hammy. If we have to take the lion, take it. There's really good defensive terrain around.

Mitchum said:

PD finally played a long 42-turn set. It's hard to say if they went religion or Agriculture first. The fact that they dipped below Xteam's culture, which we're pretty much tracking, makes it appear that they either researched Poly rather than Meditation or they squeezed in another tech first. Anyone want to

Click to expand...

They got 227 culture in 42t, which equals 1t @ 0cpt + 12t @ 2cpt + 29t @ 7cpt.

ZPV said:

It's time for us to give up on a Japanese worker, and get our warrior out of there before we get booted by Toku's culture onto a tile we don't want to be on. We can go N t23, NW t24, N t25 (or similar).

The Lion on the way to Babylon is one we'll want to fight, I'm afraid - we will need to know before long whether there's an awesome city site there. We can do it on the river+hill for 95% odds with a chance that the lion is out of range, or on the river+forest for higher odds without this chance.

Bear in mind that Gold-NW might turn out to be the right spot, if there's something in the fog, and then the corn will be free for a city north of Kyoto.

Click to expand...

Gold-NW, of course, also rules out settling for the cows.

ZPV were you palnning to do any testing today?

Or do we just move forward, reserching AH?

LowtherCastle said:

Gold-NW, of course, also rules out settling for the cows.

ZPV were you palnning to do any testing today?

Or do we just move forward, reserching AH?

Click to expand...

I meant Gold-NE

I'm happy to continue on AH.

ZPV said:

I meant Gold-NE

Click to expand...

That's funny, because I also took it as NE, without even noticing it was NW... GNE is also within two tiles of the deer/cow site.

Anyway, I guess I'll continue on then, since there's no objection and no desire to do any testing. I'll try to safely move the two S/SE warriors into fogbusting position for G1E and carefully explore in Hammy's direction. ZPV is right that we'll probably have to take on the lion. I'll try to survive that.

Continuing researching AH and building the settler. I'll stop if something noteworthy comes up.

TURNSET RPEORT T23-

T24 We reveal another river-ph-gold tile 2NW3N of Delhi, tucked up against mountains with no visible food yet. Babylon has grown to pop4.

T25 The gold has grass-forest-deer nearby. so we'll be researching hunting for sure.



T26 Our Toku warrior moves to the hill and will be attacked by both the lion and wolf next turn... . The Hammy lion decides not to attack our warrior who defogs all the coastal tiles northwest of pigs.

T27 The lion inflicts no damage and the wolf vanishes into the no-man's land between our two defoggers, where our settler will be going in a few turns... Our Toku warrior now has 2/2XP

T28, Wolf reappears and should attack our Toku warrior on the hil, fortified 2t. I'll not promote him to CI. If he survives, we'll have the path for the settler thoroughly defogged.

T29 Our Hammy warrior has no choice but to move onto a grass tile and is exposed to lion attack next turn. TOku warrior survives wolf attack at 77/100HP but a lion appears two tiles away on a hill. Hmmm... Settler done next turn.

T30 Settle done. Hammy warrior miraculously survives at 62/100HP. Toku warrior (87/100HP) not yet threatened by lion.

I've stopped and uploaded because we haven't discussed our next build yet. We could build a worker, settler, or warrior while growing to pop3. The fp farm could be completed next turn or postponed for the next worker, because this will delay the gold mine 1t. I think some testing is in order, because we now have two more cities that urgently need to be settled and only 1 worker to improve tiles.

We also need to update our knowledge on how many cities exist worldwide, when barbs will start spawning, etc.


I've attached other saves below for Demo Screen analysis.





.

That wheat look yummy and it blocks land...
More testing required, I agree.
Do you wanna pass off or continue? ZPV would be up next.

Well played, LC.

Out of the "other two" mining resource sites, my instincts say the northern gold one can be founded without the worker accompanying - instead it would follow as soon as it's built, mine the gold, and then go tend the about-to-be-founded gems city, which does need a worker to accompany the settler.

Of course, this needs some testing, to back it up.

@bbp: doesn't that wheat look a long way away? Maybe it'll be something to consider when we know how close Hammi is.

Yes, it's quite far. Hence the three dots behind my comment. I don't really know.

I figured I'd play two more turns, till we settled Gold1E. But it doesn't matter to me.

I was also thinking about the settle, then grow then worker solution to the northern gold. I tested it, btw, and it does connect to Delhi, if we settle it on the river tile between the gold and the deer.

LowtherCastle said:

I was also thinking about the settle, then grow then worker solution to the northern gold. I tested it, btw, and it does connect to Delhi, if we settle it on the river tile between the gold and the deer.

Click to expand...

I apologise, but I'm not fully clear on what you're saying here.

Are you saying that you want to build a Settler for City 3 as our next build item, followed by Warriors for growth, followed by Worker 2?

Or are you talking about growing immediately followed by building Worker 2, since we did just complete a Settler?


This map definitely supports fast expansion what with us having settled on top of the Stone and with so many Gold and Gem locations to expand to.

That said, could we be better off with building Worker 2 before Settler 3 (counting the first Settler as Settler 1)? If we're going to be researching The Wheel quickly, then perhaps yes, as a 2nd Worker could shave off travel time of Settler 3 by building Roads.


We do have two improved Grassland Hills squares to grow into, each of which would speed up the production of further Settlers and Workers, and we also have a decent amount of Food to grow into those squares quickly.


If there is a race with Hammurabi to a City location (I'm not all that concerned about the Wheat and if he gets such a City, we can capture it later), but if there is a race to Deer + Gold, then a fast Settler 3 could make sense.

If, however, there is no such race, i.e. since we see a Wheat we might be able to hope that Hammurabi goes to settle that Resource instead, then growth before Settler 3 probably makes more sense, due to us wanting at least two more quickly-built Settlers and at least one more quickly-built Worker from the capital.

Whether or not it makes sense to pump out Worker 2 before growth depends upon whether or not that Worker will be able to contribute a significant amount to our empire by coming out a few turns earlier... and since, after Farming the Flood Plains square, our Worker 1 will move to City 2 to support City 2, I don't really see us getting a faster Worker 2 as being necessary, particularly, since we don't yet know The Wheel.


Is growth to Size 3 sufficient versus to Size 4? I would be extremely tempted to grow to Size 4 if we can do so without requiring a Military Police unit, but even if we do need to keep a Warrior around, I'd probably still favour growing to Size 4.


So, unless we feel that a City location for City 3 or City 4 is threatened by an AI settling it (and us thereby needing an extra early Settler 3 or 4), I Would be strongly tempted to do the following in our capital:
a) Grow to Size 4
b) Build Worker 2
c) Build Settlers 3 and 4


Without doing the testing, I feel that we'll come out furthest ahead with this approach, but I'd consider slotting in Settler 3 before Worker 2 if we are unable to learn one of The Wheel or Bronze Working by the time that Worker 2 would be completed (which is a case that is only really likely if we do some crazy tech beeline, like going straight to Alphabet next).

Dhoom, when's the soonest you might have CIV access to do some testing?

LowtherCastle said:

soonest you might have CIV access

Click to expand...

Soonest would probably be in a day if everything falls into place, but more realistically in a couple of days from now.

I want to do some testing tomorrow night. This next fifty turns is critical. We should test all the way to the Construction sling with multiple combinations of settling gold, gold, gems and marble.

@LC

Can you update the test game?

I'd like to request that everyone on the team play all the way to the Oracle sling at least once. Even if it's quick and sloppy. It's amazing how much easier it is to understand the discussion and to contribute with the insight a test game can provide. A quick run can be done in less than thirty minutes...

EDIT: The first run does NOT have to be perfect by any stretch. If your build/tech/settling order produces good results, the team can optimize it. That is a key strength of this team.