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Old May 05, 2012, 12:28 PM   #21
kronic
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Originally Posted by uppi View Post
Two years ago the German president resigned because he dared to suggest something like this. So this is not going to happen.
I'm very sure that he didn't resign because of that, no matter what the official version is.
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Old May 05, 2012, 01:03 PM   #22
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And if there were any threats that we only could defend against with more weapons, or if NATO was a defensive alliance we might just do it, but there's just no rationale for increased military spending right now. We spend almost as much as Russia and we're allied with three countries that spend more.
Plus, if we invested in power projection and started building a strong navy and aircraft carriers I'm pretty sure British media would gleefully pull the Nazi card as British media is want to do.
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Old May 05, 2012, 01:40 PM   #23
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My point is, Germany must be able to protect it's vital economic and strategic interests overseas if necessary with military means, preferably in cooperation with allied nations (but with sharing their fair size of the burden given the size of their military), but if necessary all alone. I'm not a fan of throwing their weight around with Leopard 2s and Fallschirmjäger to force foreign countries to do what they want. But they should be able to enforce their interests if the situation demands a military solution (like reopening/securing vital trade routes that are distrupted by hostile states/non-state actors).
Now I begin to understand your username.

But that aside, what does that have to do with the UK? Why do you care if we're able to secure our economic interests?

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I'm very sure that he didn't resign because of that, no matter what the official version is.
That's not even the official version. Köhler never gave an actual explanation.

The interview uppi alluded to certainly did lead to his resignation, but in my interpretation it's more the shitstorm he had to face after this comment instead of the specific content (he didn't seem like the type who overly cares about military protection of trade routes) and that Merkel and the rest of the government didn't support him in this situation again. He just couldn't openly say that.
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Last edited by Leoreth; May 05, 2012 at 01:46 PM.
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Old May 05, 2012, 02:02 PM   #24
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Germany's interests don't end at the borders of Europe. Germany must be ready to defend it's assets, citizens and interests overseas just as any other major nation. Germany's resources don't spawn out of nothing, but are imported from around the world. Secondly, German citizens visit countries around the world frequently either as part of their work, as development aid workers or plain tourists. Germany needs to protect these citizens against potential hostile state or non-state actors.

My point is, Germany must be able to protect it's vital economic and strategic interests overseas if necessary with military means, preferably in cooperation with allied nations (but with sharing their fair size of the burden given the size of their military), but if necessary all alone. I'm not a fan of throwing their weight around with Leopard 2s and Fallschirmjäger to force foreign countries to do what they want. But they should be able to enforce their interests if the situation demands a military solution (like reopening/securing vital trade routes that are distrupted by hostile states/non-state actors).
But Germany does defend its citizens overseas


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Lufthansa Flight 181 was a Lufthansa Boeing 737-230 Adv aircraft named Landshut that was hijacked on October 13, 1977 by four members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (who called themselves Commando Martyr Halime). On October 18, with the support of the Somali military, the aircraft was stormed by the West German counter-terrorism group GSG 9 in Mogadishu, Somalia and all 86 passengers rescued. The rescue operation was codenamed Feuerzauber (German term for "Fire Magic"). The hijacking was carried out in support of the Red Army Faction and is seen as part of German Autumn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_181
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Old May 05, 2012, 02:19 PM   #25
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It seems very evident that I've tremendously misunderstood the attitudes of average Germans and the internal political consequences of altering the armed forces regarding the idea of military interventionism! I do apologise if I have offended anyone here.
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Old May 05, 2012, 02:24 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Leoreth View Post
The interview uppi alluded to certainly did lead to his resignation, but in my interpretation it's more the shitstorm he had to face after this comment instead of the specific content (he didn't seem like the type who overly cares about military protection of trade routes) and that Merkel and the rest of the government didn't support him in this situation again. He just couldn't openly say that.
Personally, I think he resigned over the Euro "rescue" as he fully knew that everything he had to sign was in breach of what he had negotiated for on behalf of Germany back in the 1990's (when he was a State Secretary in the Ministry of Finance). The interview (where he mostly stated the obvious) and its aftermath may just have been a welcome excuse for him to step down. But as long as he keeps his mouth shut, this of course is only speculation.
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Old May 05, 2012, 03:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by imperialman View Post
It seems very evident that I've tremendously misunderstood the attitudes of average Germans and the internal political consequences of altering the armed forces regarding the idea of military interventionism! I do apologise if I have offended anyone here.
Oh, don't apologize! You haven't been offensive in the slightest.

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Personally, I think he resigned over the Euro "rescue" as he fully knew that everything he had to sign was in breach of what he had negotiated for on behalf of Germany back in the 1990's (when he was a State Secretary in the Ministry of Finance). The interview (where he mostly stated the obvious) and its aftermath may just have been a welcome excuse for him to step down. But as long as he keeps his mouth shut, this of course is only speculation.
Yeah, the underlying reason was certainly his dissatisfaction with the Merkel government in both style and content. I just think the interview incident was more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation for him than an opportunity to cover up for his true motivations.
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Old May 05, 2012, 03:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by imperialman View Post
Germany's interests don't end at the borders of Europe. Germany must be ready to defend it's assets, citizens and interests overseas just as any other major nation. Germany's resources don't spawn out of nothing, but are imported from around the world. Secondly, German citizens visit countries around the world frequently either as part of their work, as development aid workers or plain tourists. Germany needs to protect these citizens against potential hostile state or non-state actors.
Spending more on military means cutting other parts of budget, and it seems Germany sees the other spendings as more important now. As far as I can see, this is pretty standard behavior for many countries in the world. More militaristic states usually have some expensive toys to pay for, such as nuclear triad, constellation of military satellites, fleet of nuclear submarines, etc. On the other hand, Japan spends even less part of GDP for defense, despite its neighboring with North Korea, not very good relations with China and territorial argument with Russia. Germany doesn't want to build up major forces in near future and it's probably not too bad
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Old May 05, 2012, 06:17 PM   #29
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Didn't you guys fight two world wars, and see 112 million people dead over the idea that no, Germany is not allowed to secure it's interests and resources beyond it's borders?
There's a crucial distinction here. In the early 20th century, Germany fannying around in Poland distracted vital men and resources from the world-historic project of Kicking Johnny Foreigner Upside the Head. Nowadays, if Germany fannies around in Poland, we can invest more men and resources in Kicking Johnny Foreigner Upside the Head. The contract is, I hope, self-evident.
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