Has the UK Resigned as a World Power?

So, when did the sun finally set on the British empire in a literal sense? Anyone ever figure this one out? Which piece of real estate made this saying passe?

In 1956, when Britain (along with France & Israel) backed off from their attempt to retake the Suez Canal. This had been the UK's last hoorah. After that, they were merely a regional power.

[Exception: the successful UK defense of the Falkland Islands.]
 
All that guff about military spending, and barely 1 single line about the gutting of the Foreign Office.

Whatever influence we have has never been and will never be based or dependent on our armed forces. It's always been about our world beating network of diplomats. Gutting the foreign office is what kills us, and that the article glosses over this tells me far more about the motivations of its author than about British ambitions on the world stage.

EDIT: Also, David Cameron is just bloody terrible at foreign policy. I mean, truly awful. His handling of the the most sympathetic and right wing European Union in decades has been an unmitigated disaster, perfectly isolating the UK through sheer incompetence alone. He just can't do diplomacy.
 
Hohoho.

It's only going to get worse from now till the referendum on Europe. Unless some other issue appears - to take over the limelight, in the meantime.
 
Don't forget that giving disabled people £110 per week to live on is what is single handedly destroying the British economy. Those lazy scrounging scumbags! GET BACK TO WORKING IN THE MINES!
 
I always find it weird when Americans complain about the UN. Seriously, the UN has essentially no power over the US, and some power over some other countries.

Absolutely true.

The current balance of power in the world is:

1. USA - you (others) watch it!
2. Whoever USA is backing (don't eff around with our friends)
3. UN

PS. Russia and China are exempt from the above ranking.
Sheisse, there's the North Korea exception too!
 
I always find it weird when Americans complain about the UN. Seriously, the UN has essentially no power over the US, and some power over some other countries.

I believe it's more of the fact that those who are perturbed by the UN are concerned about geopolitical actions and events that negatively impact the globe, including nations not involved. The United Nations peacekeeping forces have done enough bungling of their own the past many years to warrant enough concern about institutional stability. You probably know first-hand as a Canadian of the UN's screw-up during the 1994 Rwandan Genocide.
 
No, I don't really remember that.



I'm thinking this must be referring to Korea, but at that time the China with the permanent seat and veto power was the Republic of China (Taiwan) not the PRC, and they had no interest in vetoing anything.
That's the Chicanery in question.

The security council is an excellent reminder that realities trump principles in international diplomacy. The PRC clearly had and exercised the power associated with China that made them worth including in the security council. The RoC clearly did not.

The Korean War was a clear example why the security council is necessary: Because when push comes to shove, China (and France, and Britain, and Russia, and the US) have a voice that can't be simply voted down.
 
That's the Chicanery in question.

The security council is an excellent reminder that realities trump principles in international diplomacy. The PRC clearly had and exercised the power associated with China that made them worth including in the security council. The RoC clearly did not.

The Korean War was a clear example why the security council is necessary: Because when push comes to shove, China (and France, and Britain, and Russia, and the US) have a voice that can't be simply voted down.

Ah. I agree with the conclusions. I was just thrown off by the way you said "chicanery that kept them from using their veto." More accurately it was previous chicanery, or at least poor decision making, that kept them from having a veto to use. That sort of nonsense comes along with pretty much every revolution though. It was just more problematic since it was a revolution in something the size of China.

The issue of when the community of nations, or specifically the UN, recognizes a new government as being the real government is always complicated.
 
Has the UK Resigned as a World Power?

The question, as asked is technically meaningless,
and so it cannot be properly answered.

Becoming, or in this instance its exact opposite, ceasing to be
a world power is not something that individuals may decide, or
even that nations may collectively decide, for themselves.


There are, assuming that one agrees with the underlying prerequisite that the
UK was, but is not now, a world power; however, two related questions:

(a) when did the UK stop being a world power

(b) when did particular people recognise that
the UK was no longer a world power.

Happy to debate either one of these questions.
 
Looking inwards does not necessarily cancel your view of your nation as a world power. Rather, it's often provoked by a sense of entitlement and croney nationalism.

UK looks inwards (and to the right) because they can't get over that they aren't great anymore.
 
(a) when did the UK stop being a world power
At the end of WW1.
(b) when did particular people recognise that
the UK was no longer a world power.
Unless people were exceptionally blinkered, at the end of WW1.

But it depends what you mean by a world power, of course. Even the very smallest nation can be considered a world power given a sufficiently generous definition of it.
 
To be honest, I think we've long set far too much in store by 'global clout'. It's all very good to be able to cheer at a military adventure or the invasion of a third-world country, but it gives you an absolutely awful rate of return if actually improving life for people living in Britain is the goal. Maintaining, for example, nuclear missiles seems to me entirely a matter of posturing, and quite indefensible when we still have so many people here (disproportionately, by the way, ex-military) whom we can't provide with food, shelter and a decent life.
 
The thing is we can provide those things, but the government chooses to ignore the needs of its poorest citizens while throwing away billions in foreign aid, and foreign 'healthcare assessors' instead allowing the poor / disabled to claim a tiny fraction of that cost instead.
 
The foreign aid budget is less than 0.7% of GDP, and is essentially an arm of diplomacy to win us friends abroad. Defence is three times that. Foreign aid has been a colossal scapegoat for the political right wing to point at as wasted money, but it's really the wrong place to look. If they could simply get better at eliminating waste, errors and doubled effort in the government, they'd be saving billions.
 
I've always thought that the deterrent of nuclear weapons is a pretty good return on investment, but I honestly have no idea how their costs compare to a conventional military.
 
I don't think that the UK's nuclear weapons have any deterrent value, though. There are two reasons for this - firstly, that the UK is a member of NATO, and the US maintains nuclear weapons, so there are no situations in which the UK would be unprotected by the protections that the US employs. Secondly, nobody actually wants to nuke the UK. We're simply not that interesting to Russia, China or India - having a nuclear deterrent is our way of pretending that somebody might care enough about us, on a global scale, to want to annihilate us. It's not true any more.
 
Yeah, I don't get all the hate for the UN in the US either. I actually feel the organization needs to be given the ability to operate independently from its member nations so it can actually enforce its resolutions on ANY member that violates them.


I think it comes down to the fact that the UN is not a rubber stamp for the US. But instead often acts as a forum for other nations to air their grievances against the US. There are those in the US who feel that the UN should do whatever the US wants, because the US is so obviously the greatest country, and is right in all things.
 
That's a good point.
 
The way I see it, "defence" is a public good: everyone benefits from it even if they don't pay for it. As such, marginal investment in it doesn't offer a marginal return for any individual nation, and lots of nations pretty much free ride on American defence spending. American military and diplomatic resources makes peaceful trading in Asia (for example) possible; if America were to slash spending and return to "normal" levels, it would have to pivot away from Asia, allowing China to control trade in Asia. That's bad for business, not just for America, but also for basically every European and Asian nation, since all trade with Asia is now dependent on the benevolence of China. If China says "I don't want Taiwan trading with Germany any more", then Taiwan doesn't get to trade with Germany any more. Who's going to say no? How many ships is Germany going to send to the South China Sea? America's outsize military and diplomatic presence in Asia guarantees the political and economic freedom of nations in Asia, which in turn guarantees European trade with Asia.

So most European nations free ride on American military spending and diplomacy. This isn't really fair; all nations that benefit from the relative peace of the past 50 years should pay their fair share. When we look at typical public goods, such as the fire service, road signs, and so on, we find that the best way to pay for them is through taxes: everyone is assumed to benefit from them, and thus everyone must pay for them. So translating this into the language of international relations, the equivalent of a "tax" would be a commitment, via treaty, for each nation to spend a certain % of their GDP on defence. It just so happens that NATO treaties have this, and set it at 2%. This is a pretty sensible means of sharing the cost and burden of defence between everyone who benefits from it, in proportion to their ability to pay.

So spending 2% of GDP on defence, and being able to assist America in policing the world's trade routes, really does have a positive return, when looked at holistically. Individually, we could cut defence spending, and free ride on American defence spending, but (a) that's not really fair, (b) we've signed a pretty important treaty committing us to a certain level of spending, and (c) if we don't have America "on side", we may find that America starts to cut us off, and look for ways of excluding us (i.e. Europe) from the benefits of peaceful trade routes. We might find, in 50 years, that America becomes as insular as us, and only guarantees its own trade. This will force us to look after ourselves, which will no doubt cost a whole lot more than 2% of our GDP.

Flying Pig, you're suggesting that we don't need to spend as much on our military and nuclear deterrent, because the US will always have our back. What makes you so sure of that? What do we offer the US, that makes it worthwhile for the US to underwrite our sovereignty? The answer of course is that we are one of the few countries that actually sticks to the spending commitments in NATO treaties. We're one of the few countries that can actually help America police world trade routes, put belligerent countries back in their place, beat up commies, and so on. We're one of the few countries with the diplomatic and intelligence resources to broker deals, gather intel, and cojole unfriendly nations into playing by our rules. Put simply, we're one of the few nations that can actually help the US protect its interests overseas. In return, we get to benefit from peaceful free trade, and US protection from foreign threats to our own interests. That's the deal we've made, tacitly, with the US.

I'm not a militaristic person at all, but it's clear to me that there are real, tangible benefits to military spending, beyond simply protecting our borders from foreign invasions.
 
Top Bottom