Dirk's deity game pt II

6 unis built but Oxford is 33 turns on 2 mines, 17 with production all out in GA. A much better idea is to build the palace first, get up some workshops i think.Maybe one of the unknown ais can trade me stone but i doubt it.

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Surely dye city can work 4 mines, did Han steal the western ones with his culture?

If you switch to caste, getting down some workshops isn't a bad idea, although it'll be quite some workerturns lost. Oxford is important to get up fast though, so go for it. You could use the GP born at the end of this GA for a second GA to get it out faster and improve your infrastructure, in that case OR would be the way to go.

There's also the chance of Liz changing to FR in the near future, limiting your options somewhat. Depending on her disposition toward you, that change into FR might rule out use of either Paci or OR for the near future.

Other than that, SB seems to be falling behind now, and like you said, your production is strong. A renaissance war might be possible after all, especially after unlocking the HE. He only has 5 cities, so I doubt he'll put up much of a fight after you take two of those.

It's 17 even working all the mines in GA. I think i should forget about oxford there ftm building palace first and growing the city. Oxford in a city with underdeveloped cottages and without a palace isn't that great either.

Just looked at the land, i have 11 workers now but there's still a lot of work to be done. I usually try to have all tiles developed 1000 ad, won't be possible here with all the jungle to be cut. I need more workers again, if i had anticipated the oxford situation better i'd have built some more already, it's not difficult to get 10 workers in 3-4 turns in the current GA though and i think i'll begin with getting them. With 20 workers we'll have all the workshops up by ~1100 AD and we can stay in caste as a food/workshop combination is roughly comparable in hammer output to extreme whipping and it doesn't incur all that unhappiness. This seems like a solid way to go. I won't change current farms just build shops on remaining green tiles and brown tiles.

I'll assign scientists at food decifit in Babylon and Nippur, first gp will be 3 turns in Babylon. I can get Han to friendly with one lopsided trade, i hope to get music and or banking from the other ais once i meet them. I can sell that for some gold to Han and then we can trade the big techs, he has gunpowder for instance. I think i'll have steel/rifling about 1200 AD if i go for this combi.I can prebuilt units and upgrade some by that time. War against SB is easy then, i already count his cities as mine really. Alternatively i could go for cavs, i would have them somewhat sooner and i could blitz SB of the map. I would lose some cavs to all those cg lb's of course but it should be doable with enough of them, i can probably revolt 2 cities as well with all the spy points i built against him.

War against Han would be probably be possible with rifles/cannons too as i can just outproduce him but maybe i should just keep him as a trade friend. He is settling those islands and i think he'll be competitive for some time in this respect. We probably research faster together than on our own. Then again with Han and SB's cities it would just be game over.

I'll get a second GA after this one, after those GA's i think civics should be rep/nat/caste/ fm/theo. Communism and bio will be important techs of course so i will trade for sm once it becomes available. I don't think a switch from Liz to FR will have much impact on what i do, she'll remain pleased with me, she'll probably tech too fast in time to come to help me much.

Interesting round. Once the other continent is discovered, there will likely be some tech trade opportunites. Astronomy will also allow resource trades. You should be able to use Astronomy as trade bait, even though Sitting Bull already has it. I think that he tends to fall behind in tech due to his low tech trade limit...but remember that once he meets the other leaders, the tech count starts from zero. At that point, you should use the opportunity to trade away Astronomy before he does.

This game is a good example of how plans change over time. Especially the plan for building Oxford University. Delaying it for too long, after having already built Universities, is like getting stuck in the middle of the desert. You already paid full price for the Universities (using a non-Philosophical leader). At face value, the Universities are not a great buy compared to Oxford itself, even without stone (100% for 400 hammers compared to 25% for 200 hammers). So you don't get full value from the Universities until you build Oxford.

Regarding basic economy, it seems like Representation will play a big factor if you plan to go to Nationhood. For an Organized leader, the incentive for using Nationhood is lower than for non-Organized, because you don't gain any discount for that category of civics (since Nationhood is No Upkeep). Might want to consider planning a GA to use Nationhood in the short term (i.e., 1st turn of GA switch to Nationhood, 8th turn of GA switch back out).

I have played until 1100 AD, will update tonight. I'd like to have some input also from lurkers. Although i value Artichoker's and JammerUno's input a lot i see i don't get as much feedback on the game as in the beginning. This is normal, almost everyone likes the turns until 1000 AD more than the complications arising after. The game is probably won although i will be up against techy Liz and a big Charlie (yes we'll meet him this update).

So do i play it out until the end now posting about it in some detail or do i continue in the same vain probably playing 10-15 turns/update?

I'm not on a computer that can open your save, and your screenshots don't give a lot of "big picture" info.

At least we have pictures again . What info would you like to see Dave? I included a picture of current tech situation and you can see my current research rate. Land hasn't changed that much in the meantime. There was a guide written about how to write these sort of rapports and you helped writing it iirc. I have to look it up again. I indeed include a lot of pictures of deals and situations which i could have written down in text and i know the guide adviced against that. Then again reading other's reports i tend to like seeing visual progress in this way.

Maybe an overview of cities or at least the most important cities would help?

Just posting to let you know I follow and appreciate you doing this thread as well. I would like to give input but with you guys being pretty much masters of the game I feel like whatever I can add is moot.

Glad to see the pictures back, it was rather hard to follow this without them.

I like the way it is Dirk... personnally I don't comment much because I believe u don't need my bad ideas ... but I do enjoy your effort doing such an informative thread

Thx Shurdus and Ras, 5 December my photobucket pictures will (hopefully) be back online too. I will also update my first post then with links to the various rounds played. Not that useful to do that now as the posts don't make that much sense without pictures.

@Shurdus, So what do you think, continue as before or play it out in a few longer sessions?

@Ras, your ideas apparently weren't absurd enough to lose that deity SG game you hosted .

you are too kind seriously, even if I would have done some things differently, I don't think the game is in any danger so I just enjoy the good play displayed. I do believe that the first 100 turns are the most important, so I think you could economise yourself and report longer rounds if you are bored of doing all this (very time consuming) hard work...

Ras

Dirk1302 said:

@Shurdus, So what do you think, continue as before or play it out in a few longer sessions?

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For me the shorter sessions are a godsend. It draws more discussions so that we can learn from it. I would not mind longer sessions at all, they are nice to read as well.

In the end whatever would be most convenient for you would be fine. I know how much work it is to do a proper writeup. You play the game so you call the shots. I like following the discussion, and if you prefer I will even comment on them, poor as my input may be.

Actually i don't find it boring to continue playing in rounds of 10-15 turns from here, don't mind playing it out in longer rounds as well so it's pretty much an open question. From your answers i decided to stick with the current format.

This game certainly isn't over as i have to reckon with Liz and Charlie. Especially Liz will run away in tech and Charlie might vassalize his whole continent. I've been there before however and i think i will win it in the end.

First 100 turns are important for sure, turn 100 = 375 bc if i calculated correctly. I don't think deity games are generally decided by that time. I have played loads of deity games in the past where i wasn't sure of the outcome around 1700 AD.

I think my biggest mistake this game was building all the unis trying for early oxford, that was definitely not playing the map(no stone, capital not moved yet). If i had realized that building palace and Oxford would take so long i would have prioritized more workers and useful cheaper buildings like courthouses and harbors everywhere. I also would have begun mobilization with barracks/stables everywhere. Could have continued building knights subsequently. Only Dur Kurigalzu and Babylon really needed a uni due to building Taj Babylon doesn't even have one atm.

I do still read your updates, it's about the only thread I follow here right now though. I'm spending 95% of my computer time on DAO.

Gliese 581 said:

I do still read your updates, it's about the only thread I follow here right now though. I'm spending 95% of my computer time on DAO.

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Dragonage:Origins is one of the most disappointing titles in my collection, maybe right after Empire:Total War. DAO is nice, but it is not that original or enthralling, plus the game needs a major balance overhaul.

Ontopic: Glad to see the short rounds will continue!

Shurdus said:

Dragonage:Origins is one of the most disappointing titles in my collection, maybe right after Empire:Total War. DAO is nice, but it is not that original or enthralling, plus the game needs a major balance overhaul.

Ontopic: Glad to see the short rounds will continue!

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It didn't blow me away like the BG series once did but it's still pretty great and with the devs own mod tools out there someone is going to fix up most issues sooner or later. But I guess this is not the place to discuss it at length (too bad the DAO general forum is so filled with trolls and rude teens).

As in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dao_%28game%29?

Dirk1302 said:

As in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dao_%28game%29?

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I would not want to spend 126hrs on that one (my current time on my as of yet still unfinished first DAO run).

Dirk1302 said:

Actually i don't find it boring to continue playing in rounds of 10-15 turns from here, don't mind playing it out in longer rounds as well so it's pretty much an open question. From your answers i decided to stick with the current format.

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Do whatever seems best for you. Since you are essentially the leader of this game, changing the format mid-game is a decision you should make if you feel it is convenient.

This game certainly isn't over as i have to reckon with Liz and Charlie. Especially Liz will run away in tech and Charlie might vassalize his whole continent. I've been there before however and i think i will win it in the end.

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I hope he is Friendly at the time we meet him. Diplomacy aside, if he gets too strong, that situation may call for a nuclear strategy.

First 100 turns are important for sure, turn 100 = 375 bc if i calculated correctly. I don't think deity games are generally decided by that time. I have played loads of deity games in the past where i wasn't sure of the outcome around 1700 AD.

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When they are decided that late, it just means that the game remains close until then. It's the same idea as a chess game, where neither side gains a decisive advantage until very late. No reason to consider it an exceptional case.

I think my biggest mistake this game was building all the unis trying for early oxford, that was definitely not playing the map(no stone, capital not moved yet). If i had realized that building palace and Oxford would take so long i would have prioritized more workers and useful cheaper buildings like courthouses and harbors everywhere. I also would have begun mobilization with barracks/stables everywhere. Could have continued building knights subsequently. Only Dur Kurigalzu and Babylon really needed a uni due to building Taj Babylon doesn't even have one atm.

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No need to blame yourself for playing the game well...

As you mentioned, Courthouses are almost a no-brainer when playing an Organized leader. Besides that one building, there are many cases when you have just enough hammers to build all necessary buildings, except for one. Deciding which one building to skip in each city can help a lot towards having enough hammers to build the ones you need.

By the way, have you ever tried running spy specialists in addition to scientist specialists to boost your GPP rate? I know a lot of players on the forum dislike using spy specialists. But with Organized, the extra specialist slot comes at a cheap cost...almost as cheap as a temple with Spiritual, but without the risk of generating a Great Prophet. After further thought, I realized that settled Great Spies have very good output compared to their non-Great counterparts (a factor of 3, vs. a lower factor for most other kinds of settled Great People).

@Gliese, honestly don't know what DAO is .

Update to 1110 AD

920 AD

Begin with a civic switch



Micro the capital to get my next GS in 2 turns, after that it needs to build other things again and Nippur is to generate the GS after so i assign 6 specs now at food decifit there. Nippur is unhappy so it has to finish theater. Begin building workers in all other cities except Dur Kurigalzu which i'm growing to happy cap. Palace is 73 turns there now.

Meet Charlie and Sulei this turn. Sulei has voluntarily vassalized to Charlie. No one knows why because he seems to have a healthy empire himself. Charlie is buddhist, Sulei christian. Charlie is big with some 12 cities but his land isn't that great, Sulei's land is much better actually. He's annoyed with me so i gift him drama for 130 gold. I subsequently trade philo for music. I meet Toku some turns later, he's annoyed with me already and almost everybody's worst enemy so i leave him alone





940
Liz techs astro, i don't want to bulb this tech anymore, with any luck i can trade for it. If i can get Han to pass me on the list again i think SB will trade it to me.Do some trades with Han in order to get some useful tech and get him to friendly. Now it's 1 turn for my GS and i'd love to bulb chem before i actually make the trade for astro. Hope Han doesn't trade gp away to liz this turn.





960
All turns out well so after bulbing chem, i make the following trades.....







I was pretty happy with this chance to bulb chem but in the end i couldn't get anything for it. It might have been hard to get it in trade myself though and i need it for maximum workshop productivity.

980

SB steals theo, this suits me well since i can see his research now, he is going pp, hasn't got guilds yet though so still some way from rifling. Turns out he goes SM ->physics next, wrong my friend.

1010
Chemistry is in.



And for once the techscreen looks good. It was not to last long.....



I have to choose now. I might go steel but it takes time. If i also have to go rifling it'll take forever to declare on SB. Since i have spy points i can surely take him down fast with cavs and if i'm very unlucky with trading cuirassiers will probably do as well if i have enough of them. Also mil trad has better trading value than rep parts even if i have rep parts there's no guarantee that ais will trade me mil trad for it since quite a few ais need to have it, not so with rep parts. I need it anyway so i choose to go this way.

1060
Sulei breaks free from Charlie, there was no need to vassalize to him in the first place.

1090
Miltrad is ready, need 1 turn research into rep parts now, unfortunately Han has researched already but Sulei and Liz come to the rescue, i had a choice who to trade to. I think any trade i can make with Liz should be made right now she had more gold to offer too.



Charles asks me to join a war against Toku, happy to comply.



Still not happy, he just vassalized Toku so the next trade is necessary. He hates Liz too so if he's indifferent to me all should be well.



1110 AD
8 turns to rifling. I have a GS ready to start a GA once constitution or economics is in, preferably both. Mobilization has begun, i'm still growing HE city to switch to all mines once i start that GA, the other cities can pretty much all work workshops so production is pretty good. It should be possible to strike around 1200 AD.

I have a clear plan from here i think,

Begin GA once i can switch to either rep or fm. I think i'll research 2 turns into constitution now as i want to make this trade as soon as it becomes available, no need to research into economics. Switch to theo/fm or rep/ maybe nat if GT is finished.

Declare on SB upgrading some cuirassiers to cavs for first attack. Incite as many revolts as possible with spies. I think the war'll last ~10 turns.

Revolt to nat maybe in the first ga, maybe in another one after. Draft rifles research to steel. Once steel is in build/upgrade some 20 cannons. Together with the cavs already build and the drafted rifles i'll have a huge army , i can probably split it in 2 and rundown Han fast between 1400-1450 AD. Don't think he'll have infantry yet by that time. I may need to set some some cities to wealth in order to get steel fast enough.

I'll need new friends, i will stay in theo for some time prebuilding some trebs which i'll upgrade to cannons, cr2 is so much better than cr1 against rifles. I think Liz will switch FR somewhere, i do the same once i have some cr2 siege, Charles'll be pleased then, maybe even friendly. I might get Liz friendly too in the end.

There is one alternative, if Han still doesn't have rep parts once i'm ready i may declare on him but that seems to be a small chance.

@Artichoker, how would vassalage work out on this map, Maybe switching to that civic to get Charlie to friendly will be an option in the future.

Overview:

@Artichoker, indeed building courthouses is sort of attractive being organized.But then again you don't need them as much being organized since you're not paying so much money in the first place. Of course being + in money at 100% isn't that bad either. I actually don't like courthouses very much, i whipped forges before courthouses in some cities. I had a forge in every city where i whipped a uni btw. In warlords courthouses were actually horrible without the spy points except in very expensive cities but many thought they were essential then. I also think the higher the level the less you need courthouses as you get more gold from ais. In this game i had courthouses in most cities before unis because it was very easy to whip them in those food rich cities.

Maybe building the unis wasn't that bad in the end, they have to be build some time and i hadn't that much room for building other things as i didn't need money multipliers. But i could have fine tuned building all harbors,increasing worker force and finishing courthouses before going for the unis. I corrected the mistake with the workers asap, i have 20 of them now for 8 cities.