Dirk's deity game pt II

That's some masterful abuse of WFYABTA by being on the lower end of the scoreboard. I'll definitely have to keep that one in mind for my own games :goodjob:

How many spies are you going to run on SB?

I don't think you'll hit friendly with Liz - you have +6 from religion right now it seems, but it'll take a very long time to hit the same bonus from shared civics. Actually I'm not even sure if Liz goes up to +6 on shared civics...
 
But i don't have any + from fair trade with her and she may forget about my 2 refusals for help. Then again i'll incur a penalty with her for the upcoming war with SB. I would prefer to get Charlie or Sulei to friendly , they're much more useful i think. Not likely i'm going to run HR later though. Vassalage may be an option but it'll hurt and i don't know if Charlie is going to stick to it all through the game. I haven't refused him anything yet, without religion i'm +6 with him now. the resource + may get up to +2, i may get + for open borders and maybe for sharing techs for a possible +9 or so. Need to look up xml if that'd be enough, vassalage would certainly get him there. Buddhism too if it ever spreads.

I think the city that is now making a spy will keep on making spies from now so 10-15 or so maybe i assign a second city for to extra spies. I'll certainly try to revolt Mound city and Cahokia,those cities are on hills. I'll try to revolt the others too but they're less important since i think cavs'll still have an edge against the cg3 lb's there.Think i'll take the last city without revolt.
 
@Artichoker, how would vassalage work out on this map, Maybe switching to that civic to get Charlie to friendly will be an option in the future.


I looked at the save.

Vassalage and Bureaucracy both become stronger in this game due to using an Organized leader, while Nationhood and Free Speech become weaker in comparison. Free Speech, in particular, is weaker in this game due to your choice of using mass workshops instead of cottages. Nationhood remains useful in the short term, probably during a GA, but in the long term provides the worst level of income of all the civics, except for Barbarism.

Looking at the map reveals that there is an absence of Stone on your home continent. Tokugawa and Charlegmagne both possess one Stone each, but neither is willing to trade it. This means that gaining Stone will be very difficult in this game. Oxford University is still worth the hammers, but it will take a bigger investment to get it completed. Because of the lack of discount, delaying it for the hammers may be a viable strategy if you are not in Bureaucracy.

There's certainly an opportunity to get Charlemagne to Friendly by switching to Vassalage and Free Religion. The advantage of doing this is primarily being able to trade techs freely with him. Free Religion is also important because it will improve your relations with all AIs on the other continent, especially Suleiman, who will be a major tech trading partner in the future. With Free Religion, you forfeit the +2 XP bonus of Theocracy, but that bonus can be gained by using Vassalage.

Your window of opportunity of using Vassalage will depend on which kind of victory you pursue. As I see it, there are 3 main options to take:

1) Space Race

This option is very beaker-intensive, so you will want to be in Bureaucracy once you start the final stretch of the tech race. Oxford University will remain a big factor in this phase of the game.

But there is still a window of opportunity to use Vassalage, and that will exist approximately from the time you finish teching Steel, up until the time you finish taking over your home continent (or most of it). During this time, you can focus on gaining the most out of your tech trade opportunities with Charlemagne. Once you've taken over enough land, you should be able to speed past him and the others in the tech race after switching back to Bureaucracy.

Using Free Religion instead of Theocracy will keep your relations with the AIs on the other continent good, but you should probably wait until Elizabeth switches to Free Religion first. In the meantime, you can probably use Organized Religion to make sure you have all essential infrastructure buildings.


2) Domination/Conquest, w/Nuclear Arms

This option is much less beaker-intensive than option 1), and probably no more beaker-intensive than option 3). For this option, you have the same window of opportunity of using Vassalage as in option 1), but this window can be extended even further if you decide to use a rush-buy strategy of military production.

The decision to use Vassalage or Bureaucracy in the final stretch of the game, with this option, will mainly depend on two factors: 1) your choice of location for Wall Street and 2) your level of use of conventional arms in combination with nuclear arms.

With a rush-buy strategy, your science slider will become 0%, greatly reducing the significance of Oxford University. Wall Street becomes much more important at this point in the game. Depending on whether you build Wall Street in the capital or another city (such as a shrine/corp HQ city), Bureaucracy can have more or less potential. Vassalage, on the other hand, depends on the size of your empire. With a large empire, the free unit bonus can become very significant, if you take into account the effect of inflation--which grows large during the later stages of the game.

Also, the +2 XP bonus gives an added benefit to your conventional arms production. With good conventional forces, you can save hammers on nukes when fighting against weaker enemy forces. The most significant advantage here is when producing Marines and Tanks, because you will need to produce these units from scratch. If you choose to produce a good number of Marines and Tanks, then Vassalage will provide added benefit in the +2 XP bonus.


3) Domination/Conquest, w/Conventional Arms

Again, with this option, you have the same window of opportunity of using Vassalage as in option 1), but this window can be extended even further.

As in option 2), your choice of location for Wall Street will directly affect the decision to use Bureaucracy or Vassalage. Building Wall Street in a city other than your capital will make the Bureaucracy bonus less powerful once you move your science slider to 0%.

Unlike nuclear war, conventional war requires large numbers of non-nuclear units. This makes the +2 XP bonus very significant. It also saves you from needing to build the Pentagon, which requires many hammers to build in the first place. Since you are going to war this late, you should definitely consider using your Generals to build military academies instead of settling them. With enough military academies, you can establish a huge production advantage, which gets magnified if you have the +2 XP bonus from Vassalage.

In addition, conventional war leaves captured AI cities largely intact. This has two important results: 1) the population of the captured cities remains high, allowing the free unit bonus of Vassalage to grow faster. 2) the captured cities can act as military production cities, further increasing the value of the +2 XP bonus.

Another thing to consider is that when invading the other continent, attacking Suleiman first will enjoy the added benefit of being free from DOW by Charlemagne, as long as he stays in Vassalage.



For both 2) and 3), you should emphasize using your Great Generals to build military academies, instead of settling them. This means looking for opportunities to trade for Military Science. You should also aim to capture the Kremlin, as this wonder greatly aids using a rush-buy strategy.
 
Wouldn't FR get you safe from Charlie as long as there are heathens in the world?

Besides, once you take SBs cities your power rating will be high enough to deflect most attacks, especially once you build up for the war agains Han. Once those two are gone you're at 21 cities, surely enough to be safe from there on.
 
I'm probably safe from Charlie as long as Liz doesn't go FR. When she does i need to check again as he maybe annoyed towards Han by that time. Power rating won't help me to deflect the declaration, i'd need 1.5 * Charlie's power. I would survive a war with Charlie without too much damage but it would interfere with my warplan against Han.

@Artichoker, some good points you raise, i'll probably go with 3) maybe 1) as i don't like 2). Not that i have any scruples to do it, its a game after all but i like things neat and tidy and nuclear was certainly isn't :lol:. If 3) is on 1) is too in my experience certainly with Liz down and i may get lazy somewhere down the line. My intention is to take Liz down at the beginning of the modern era with cavs/bombers, maybe backed up by infantry then i'll decide if i'm lazy.

The second promo on units isn't totally necessary but it certainly comes in very handy in this variant as it'll keep losses and healing time down . As you say FS isn't that strong here.Once i'll have oxford buro will pull some weight but Dur is not the ideal burocratic capital atm. With SB's cities added a centralized civic like buro doesn't appeal as much.Trading freely with Charlie will keep me closer to Liz than the extra 50-100 beakers from buro i think.

So after 8 turns nationhood switching vassalage is probably the way to go. Once Charlie switches out i'll probably have enough cottaged cities to make FS worth while. I plan on 2 ga's from here, i can get one now and it won't be too difficult to get 2 different specs from Babylon. It depends a bit on the situation if i do nationhood->vassalage in the first or the second ga. Will be the first time i'll run vassalage but i may have wasted some good opportunities in the past.

As for mil academies they're >> settling anyway imo. Wars in civ4 are won by numbers.
 
I have played until 1100 AD, will update tonight. I'd like to have some input also from lurkers. Although i value Artichoker's and JammerUno's input a lot i see i don't get as much feedback on the game as in the beginning. This is normal, almost everyone likes the turns until 1000 AD more than the complications arising after. The game is probably won although i will be up against techy Liz and a big Charlie (yes we'll meet him this update).

So do i play it out until the end now posting about it in some detail or do i continue in the same vain probably playing 10-15 turns/update?

Sorry about that. I have been lurking since this started. Its almost finals week though so I am catching it on the fly or on my phone. I really appreciate this though, it is fun to follow.
 
Thx, well i can see from views that there's still interest in the thread, was just wondering what viewers liked best. So i continue with chunks of 10-15 turns. Maybe i'll update a bit more frequently as i have a bit more time now than a few weeks ago.
 
Cavalry vs. CG3 LB does not yield very good odds, unfortunately :( Do either SB or Hannibal have large SoD's?

I don't think the AI forgets the refused demands. I know there is a threshold for it but it's a pretty bad chance - I rarely see it go down over the course of a game.
 
I have seen it go down iirc, can take a while though. It's not like declare on friend which will 100% certain not disappear.

As for SB i'll have lots of spies. Had scouted his land before, he didn't have that many units, lb's all over the place. After revolt odds of cavs'll be great if i can't revolt a city i think it'll be around 50% cg3 is tough but the first 2 cities aren't built on hills. And i'll be sure to attack with an initial stack of some 20 units , not all cavs, producing more as i go along.

In the overview screenshots you'll see i have 0.6 * SB's power now and i've just begun producing knights/cuirassiers. I have ~6 of them. I think it'll be a run over. Have no idea about Han, his nearest cities have almost no units at all in them and are low on culture too. But i won't go up against someone who can tech rifles any moment. Han has only 6 cities on my conti and i don't think the island units can bother me. Once i have the right units i don't think i'll meet much resistance there too.
 
Cavalry vs. CG3 LB does not yield very good odds, unfortunately :( Do either SB or Hannibal have large SoD's?

CG3 LBs on hills get 150% + cultural. With 60% cultural def you'll be fighting 18.6 stength LBs with C2 cavs, it's a bad deal when you look at hammer investments. Not all of SBs cities are one hills though, and there's always Flanking 2 to bring down losses even more.
 
I definitely plan to revolt the hill cities. F2 is indeed a good idea if the going's tougher than expected, i'll keep that in mind. Don't promote to F2 often since i do this attacks often with airships in the background. Hammer for hammer this war may not be great but i have loads of hammers in a GA. Can afford to lose some.
 
@1110 AD

I would emphasize growth in Opis by stealing the farm from Babylon and farming over the grassland workshop.

And emphasize production in Babylon by stealing the mine/workshops from Opis and starving the city until the palace leaves.

It's just about time to build the filler city 4W of Babylon, the only question is can you afford to defend it from naval attacks.
 
Emphasize production in capital right now is a good idea,i'll switch some tiles. The plan was to get GT in Opis up asap now so i can draft rifles once i switched Nat in GA. I should probably grow it right away as you suggest as the first GA will probably come too early for a switch to Nat and i don't need rifles against SB anyway. This city also has moai so the sea tiles certainly aren't useless here.

It's easy to defend city 4w, just put a cav in it, maybe 2. I planned settling it once the clam was freed but i can do it now as well.
 
Emphasize production in capital right now is a good idea,i'll switch some tiles. The plan was to get GT in Opis up asap now so i can draft rifles once i switched Nat in GA. I should probably grow it right away as you suggest as the first GA will probably come too early for a switch to Nat and i don't need rifles against SB anyway. This city also has moai so the sea tiles certainly aren't useless here.

It's easy to defend city 4w, just put a cav in it, maybe 2. I planned settling it once the clam was freed but i can do it now as well.

If you commit to the plan of limiting Nationhood to the GAs, then you might do better by using Nationhood in multiple GAs.

For example, when using Nationhood in only 1 GA you can draft 3 Riflemen per turn and get 24 drafted Riflemen.

But let's say, for example, that you draft 2 Riflemen per turn in 2 GAs. In this case, you will get 32 drafted Riflemen. Furthermore, as long as the 2 GAs are far enough apart, you will be able to reduce the amount of draft anger that you accumulate.

So not only will you have more drafted Riflemen in the end, but your draft anger will also be less.


Maybe my numbers are not optimal...a more conservative plan would be to draft 1 Rifleman/turn in the 1st GA, and 2 Riflemen/turn in the 2nd GA.
 
True, Have to check on the exact happy situation to see how much i can draft from the other cities. I can certainly draft some from future GT city, i can allow it to grow unhappy as long as i assure that it can finish GT in reasonable time to get rid of that unhappiness. 3 rifles/turn might hurt my cities too much but1.5- 2/turn might just be feasible.
 
Using nationalism is short intensive bursts has big drawbacks. HR won't help you there, since the plan is obviously to move them out of the city shortly. 2 drafts is probably too much to handle, residual drafting angst is just too high at 3 unhappy per draft. The GT can take continuous drafting.

GT city to size 13 and draft 8 from there, 1 each from the other cities, offset the unhappiness either with HR or culture. 15 rifles + cav can take out SB, adding 5 more drafting sites (assuming it's a total kill) for a second GA. Then, with 12 cities, you could go for 2 per city, another 8 from GT, upping the culture won't matter that much after taking out Han anyway, since it's game won from there.
 
1110 AD
Switch tiles to let current capital work max hammers and grow Opis as suggested by Dave. Road a cow this turn to get 1 unhealth away from capital.Switch to constitution for 1 turn.Switch GT to barracks, i need those anyway and with rifles some 8 turns away atm i don't think i'll switch nationhood next GA.

1120
Han techs constitution. I'd rather not trade rep to him.I notice again this turn that Han's border cities are very lightly defended. So i did some more exploration and Han isn't really too strong.~12 units and cats in capital and a mini stack of 8 units in Kerkouane. 3-4 units in other cities. He doesn't have horses and is actually a very easy target if he doesn't tech rifles.

Dur Kurigalzu is finally in a position to get oxford going.



Actually i was building a palace here but since i intend to switch to vassalage soon this palace will have more negative than positive effects as maintenance will increase due to location. I'll finish palace once i'm running SP for the +8 commerce from palace.

1140
Sulei also has constitution now, i trade with him, have to pay 160. Start GA and revolt this turn as i want to minimize danger from the other conti. Go rep/vass/caste/dec/fr. +7 with Charlie now. Rifling is 5 turns away.





1180
Get Rifles and trade it away for economics and 70 gold to Liz.



Not a good deal but Rifles is probably a 2 turn thing for her if she doesn't get it in trade. Rifles isn't a monopoly anymore as Sulei already has them. Meanwhile my GA is over in 3 turns and i'd like to get that civic change to FM in. Switch civics this turn of course.

Han still refuses to defend his border cities properly. Main stack is near Hadrumetum, some 5 cavs, 10 cuirassiers. Leptis is eyed by 5 cavs.





And he still hasn't got rep.



Since SB is a sure thing but Han would have cost some work and preparation later i go for his free cities now. Those cities won't be too productive due to culture right now. I plan to have these 2 cities and Carthage which has GLH for now. Have to see where we stand then, maybe i should finish him off right away, maybe sue for peace and kill SB, it depends on SB's teching, can't allow him to get rifles.

Some extra money for upgrades, lib won't help him.



1190
Declare on Han and capture the 2 cities Leptis and Hadrumetum This gives me enough money to upgrade almost all remaining cuirassiers.

1200
Han poisons Babylon, that hurts production wise. It produced ~ 1 cav/ turn but not anymore.

A very bad rng loses me 2 80%+ fights slightly hurt cavs againt maces iirc. Kill of his counter stack of some mace/pike/crossbow/cat riff raff from Kerkouane with cavs.

Need to heal and produce some more cavs.Carthage is more serious business.
1250 final battle







Won the battle, actually most units survive, lost 5 or so. Need to heal for some 3 turns first. Then question is go for SB now or finish the job. SB is researching steel atm. Would have preferred electricity but i don't mind steel that much, I don't think SB can suddenly assemble a big cannon army and on defense cannons are totally toast against cavs. My thought while playing was stopping at Carthage in order to take the rest later after downing SB. But it's probably only 3 turns to get the rest of Carthaginian cities once i've healed. Will need to heal again of course but no more then ~6 turns delay on SB who is still miles away from Rifles (guilds/banking/rep/rifles).

Since i wanted to produce as much units as possible and then the water in Babylon got poisoned the idea of farming a GM for a GA is out ftm. For that reason i haven't resumed globe building as i certainly won't sacrifice 2 turns to switch in and out. I'm pretty much running the civis i want right now. May need to 2 turns in anarchy for emancipation/SP later but at least i won't need to switch back out of these civics later.

Got Oxford but tech is bad even with GLH. Not really important because after Steel i'll have what i want for now. Next priority will be communism.

Current situation:







 

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Since we have pictures again also in the older posts, courtesy of Photobucket :rolleyes:, i updated the links to gameplay in the first post. Hope they're not gone again by tomorrow.
 
What are you going to do about Hannibal's offshore cities? Vassal him and force him into well-liked civics? I'd prefer to just take his cities and peace, assuming he doesn't like Charlie enough to vassal to him.
 
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