Montezuma Immortal Cookbook

3pts for the save you liked most, 2pts for the second and 1pt for the last.

Don't vote for yourself, it shows bias ;) (...you could call out your own save as interesting...)

Voting will last until everyone has voted, a clear winner has emerged or when the new round starts on Saturday.


Shadows (shadow, lacking save or 2nd/3rd/... attempts)

Benginal (no save)

Benginal (take 2)

Sets

WaffleCakes Save here

CivConVict

drlake

Fierabras

obsolete

Dhoomstriker

If I missed anybody, be sure to tell me - thanks!
 
OK, here goes:

3 points: Obsolete - great tech lead and wonders
2 points: Dhoomstriker - Pyramids and G. Lighthouse + good tech and infrastructure
1 point: Fierabras - Good southern blocking cities and decent tech
 
3 points: DrLake - Not too thrilled with this one, but since it`s the only one with Mids + G-Library, ok lets go with it.

2 points: Dhoom - This one really hurts to look at. Mids + Rep, yet not even one specialist is running. To make matters worse, workers burned off numerous turns spamming cotts all over, and we don`t even have a financial trait. Why!!!....... I chose it second only because we have Lighthouse with Mids.

1 point: Fierabras - Don`t think there were any others left that were better than this one.
 
3 points: obsolete - very interesting game without cottages
2 points: Dhoomstriker - great expansion, similar to my own game but way better, like usual
1 point : CivConVict - Rome still alive
 
Dhoom - This one really hurts to look at. Mids + Rep, yet not even one specialist is running. To make matters worse, workers burned off numerous turns spamming cotts all over, and we don`t even have a financial trait. Why!!!
I can tell you why, but that doesn't mean that you will agree with my reasoning. As I stated in my plan (which no one said was bad), my approach was to build Cottages.

Cottages were the only thing that kept my rapidly-expanding empire from Striking.

Then it became a self-fulfilling prophesy--the additional number of Cities required a larger Worker force, and the large Worker force + large standing army required more Commerce to keep them... thus, more Cottages got built and worked.

Many of the Riverside squares have already been worked for some time as Cottages, leaving few to no remaining Riverside squares without improvements on them.

Then, with Worker turns to spare, it wasn't yet possible to put Farms on most non-Riverside Grassland squares, and it seemed a bit early to lay down Workshops, so what was one to do but further spam more Cottages on the non-Fresh Water squares? :lol:


It's not like I haven't been laying down Mines and Chopping Forests and Jungles--I've done all of those things--it's just that in addition, I also built a lot of Cottages! :D


If you look closely, several Cities have been running Scientists, but once I picked up Code of Laws, I felt that it would be worthwhile to "juggle" the unhappiness by whipping Sacrificial Altars and then Markets in the larger Cities, which meant temporarily whipping away the Specialsits. In so doing, the smaller Cities had a chance to grow, as Representation shifted the distribution of Happiness from the larger Cities to the other Cities, thereby giving the other Cities a chance to grow large enough to be able to whip their own infrastructure.

It is at this point in the cycle that we have reached--once those secondary-Cities have whipped themselves back down, the "main" Cities will get Representation's Happiness bonuses again and will be able to grow large enough to rehire the Specialists. This time, however, some Cities might also hire Merchants, which will allow us to push our Science Rate a bit higher, which can be seen as a relative bonus only if we have higher empire-wide Science Multipliers, which we will have if we make an Academy in our captial (but we won't have if we use the Great Scientist in another manner).

Of course, deciding whether to work more Scientists or more Merchants will depend also upon whether or not you think that a City can generate a Great Person and which type of Great Person you will want.


Maybe it is a mistake, but I read the land available to us--even if we were to steal the land from Frederick--as being Happiness-Resource-poor. I can't even remember seeing a single Forge-improving Happiness Resource (Gold, Gems, or Silver). In such a circumstance, we won't be growing much beyond Size 9 in most of our Cities anyway, so Grassland Farms spammed across the empire seem like a bit of a waste to me. Sure, we could switch to Hereditary Rule and grow our Cities much larger, but then you would nullify the extra Science that you would otherwise get from Representation-based Specialists.


So, yes, if we had have had a lot more Happiness Resources available to us, I would have emphasized a lot more Riverside Farms. But, lacking those, I was easily able to grow to Happiness caps on Cottages alone, then hiring Specialists when I was approaching (or in low-Food Cities, got to) said Happiness caps. Then, lacking Code of Laws for Caste System, and even Priesthood for Temples, I had no need for Farms, as I could not hire more than 2 Specialists per City.


The additional Happiness infrastructure (Markets + cheap Temples) will allow us to slightly increase our Happiness caps, but still not to such a degree that I would necessarily want to be working a ton of Grassland Farms to get there.


Ideally, though, I should have chosen one or two locations to act as Great-Person-generating Cites, so sure, go ahead and pave over Cottages with Farms in such Cities if you can identify them. I struggled to decide which locations were best, as the Food-based Resources seemed to be relatively distributed across Cities, so I would love to hear some feedback on which Cities would be best converted to Great People Farms.


In the short run, 2 Grassland Farms will win out over 2 Grassland Cottages, assuming that you have sufficient Specialist slots available (which we will now have with both Libraries and Markets providing Specialists slots but which I did not have previously), as 2 Grassland Farms will give us 6 Flasks from a Scientist Specialist or 3 Flasks and 3 Gold from a Merchant Specialist. Compared to working Cottages, you would need to have them mature to Hamlets and then Villages in order to match that basic output with 6 Commerce. In addition, we'll get Great People Points (GPP) from hiring the Specialists.

In the long run, I think that we'll want to focus our Great People production to just a couple of Cities, which will be the only Cities that will make effective use out of the GPP. Other Cities, where generating a Great Person will no longer be possible, will come out evenly with 2 Villages versus 2 Representation-based Grassland-Farm-fed Specialsits, while the Villages will pull ahead of the Specialists in those auxilliary Cities one we research Printing Press.


To me, Cottages are best used when you start to work them early on, and in this case, the Happiness cap plus the lack of Caste System made it beneficial for me to do so.


Could I have expanded less and thereby increased the tech pace? Yes, indeed, but if land is power, then our empire has a lot of future potential stored in it.

I only decided to capture Julius' and the Barbarians' "land-holding" Cities that were on the Coast after we got The Great Lighthouse, hoping that those Cities would come close to paying for themselves in the immediate short-run and would eventually bring us a lot more success in the medium-term, once they get Sacrifial Altars up and start to mature some of their Cottages.


Sure, if we'd have had 6 Happiness Resources, spamming Farms everywhere in order to get Scientist Specialists sooner, in order to get Caste System sooner, in order to continue to hire a ton of Specialists everywhere would have been a very strong play, given the large number of Grassland River squares available to us. But, ultimately, it was the lack of Happiness Resources that led to my Cottage approach, which I agree I could have toned down a bit by having as many as 3 Cities being dedicated to Farms and additional Specialists once the Specialist slots became available (as is just beginning to happen now). At least we have a large enough Worker force to address the situation.
 
Thanks to real-life, it'll probably take me a couple of days before I can look at others saves, provide comments, and vote.


In the meantime, did anyone see Frederick building a Wonder besides The Pyramids? He built The Temple of Artemis in my game (for us?) and has used it to spawn a Great Prophet for the (sometime-to-be-ours?) Hindu Holy Shrine. I was able to extort some Gold from Frederick and sell a couple of techs to him for some minor techs, Monarchy, plus even more Gold as a result.
 
3 points: Dhoomstriker. Because of the good amount of land and his really long thing about how good his save his.

2 points: Obsolete. Because of the great tech lead and nicely operating specialist economy.

1 point: Fierabras. Because of the good amount of land.
 
3 points: Dhoomstriker. Because of the good amount of land and his really long thing about how good his save his.

Dhoom stated his case very strong and now I'm second-guessing my vote. What's the consensus nowadays? Can a specialist economy like in obsolete's save hold out long term?
 
Dhoom stated his case very strong and now I'm second-guessing my vote. What's the consensus nowadays? Can a specialist economy like in obsolete's save hold out long term?

Dhoom's would be easier for me to manage for the rest of the game. But that just reflects my limited abilities. Cottages are nice because you can kind of set them and forget them. And by late game, with an empire as big this early as Dhoom's, the game will be almost impossible to lose as we should have an incredible tech rate and tons of gold to spend buying buildings or units.

On the other hand, I'm sure obsolete thinks his is the best save and I definitely wouldn't mind playing his save in the next round for practice with scientist specialists.
 
The Specialist Economy is normally very good. In this "exception case" of low Happiness, Cottages are really good, too
What's the consensus nowadays? Can a specialist economy like in obsolete's save hold out long term?
I would tend to think that Great People generated from a Specialist Economy are very strong at high levels of difficulty and in general, are a great way to go. I would tend to limit Cottages in the average game, focusing on them mostly in a capital with sufficient Food to run them, then in a few auxilliary Cities.

However, this game appears, at least to me, to be an exception case, since we have such a limitation on the amount of Happiness available to us.

I do admit that we really could use a couple of Farmed Cities in my save, so there is definitely a lot of room to improve upon my approach.

All of that said, for a low-Happiness situation like the one that we have, I would tend to think that building Cottages is the way to go for the early game. I would also contend that in a game where you are able to build and work Cottages early in the game, they will tend to perform strongly in the long-run.


Normally, though, you can't keep your population anywhere close to the Happiness cap and still whip all of the infrastructure that you want to build, so Farms in more Cities than Cottages is a very strong approach. The difference being that we can get to our Happiness cap easily in this game with so many Grassland squares and at least 1 Food Resource per City, making Cottages a strong play--I just went overboard and neglected Specialists too much. But, that mistake is easy enough to correct, with our large Worker force.

Is it the strongest play for this map? That question I will not claim to be knowledge enough to answer. But, compared to most maps, I think that I can very fairly claim that going for mass-Cottages on this map is a lot stronger than it normally is at this difficulty level.


Great Scientist--Go for Philosophy (without Taoism)?
Rather than building an Academy, it would be fair play to Lightbulb Philosophy if we continue to play from my game. We are Spiritual, so there would be no Anarchy hit to switch into Pacifism--meaning that we would NOT have to wait for a Golden Age to do so.

Since Frederick and I have spread Hinduism around to most of our Cities, we could either focus on building the remaining Missionaries using a Monastery or could delay the switch into Pacifism until we have used Organized Religion to build or whip out sufficient Missionaries to spread Hinduism to all of our Cities (which we will want for the Happiness bonus, even if we don't run Specialists in those additional Cities).

But, by Lightbulbing Philosophy, the goal would be to sooner rather than later switch into Pacifism (within the next 20 turns, preferably sooner). Each City has at least 1 Food Resource, meaning that most Cities could get away with hiring 3 Specialists, even without needing to lay down Farms--you might shrink the Foodboxes 1 Food per turn this way for Cities with only a 5-Food Food Resource, while working Grassland Cottages with the excess citizens, but it would be a great way to leverage our low Happiness cap while still growing some Cottages.

The timing of switching from Organized Religion to Pacifism would be up to you--I would say that if you really want to whip a building, try and do so before you switch--which may mean waiting for a number of turns before your Sacrificial Altar/Market/whatever can be whipped. You'll use up less population points or will at least generate more Hammers from each population point whipped in a City with Hinduism when running Organized Religion.

After making the switch to Pacifism and hiring Specialists wherever possible, I would suggest not whipping for a while--which means that you could even switch into Caste System if you really wanted to do so, to better concentrate on hiring purely Scientists or purely Merchants in a few Cities.


This way, you'd get the best of both worlds--Cottages and Specialists--leveraging the large number of Cities to get a lot of both running.


Still plan to make at least 1 and probably as many as 3 Long-term Great People Farms
I would still recommend that you convert at a MINIMUM one City into purely Farms (not the capital, though), and preferably 2 such Cities (maybe even 3 of them). That way, you'll have at least one City in which you can build the National Epic, while having a second or third auxilliary Great Person Farm to be used later on in the game.


Wonders? Heroic Epic? What to do with Rome
I wasn't planning on chasing many more Wonders for a long time, so I had planned to make Rome our Heroic Epic City and thus settled a Great General there. You can do whatever you want--Rome would also be a great spot to pump out Wonders--but I don't think that we'll have enough of a tech lead to be building World Wonders anytime soon.


Astronomy for Happiness from Resource Trades?
Ideally, we'll get ourselves positioned into learning Astronomy, so that we can open up a chance for trading for overseas Happiness Resources.


Frederick has already learned Metal Casting and is on his way to Machinery--we could aim to use Espionage to steal them, which would help along the Astronomy line.


Unfortunately, it is a bit too late to Lightbulb a lot of the Astronomy line, since I have already opened up Philosophy for Great Scientist Lightbulbing and we'll soon open up Paper for Great Scientist Lightbulbing by learning Civil Service, but a combined effort of Cottages + Specialists should allow us to self-tech to Astronomy within a reasonable timeframe (just not nearly as fast as if we'd used a Lightbulb-targeted approach, where Great Scientists were instead used on techs like Compass, Machinery, Optics, and Astronomy). Oh well, Civil Service when you've actually been maturing some Cottages is a good tech to get, too.


And, I think that if we use the Great Scientist on Philosophy and do run Pacifism with a number of Specialists, we'll still get a Great Scientist for an Academy in the capital and we'll get it a pretty quickly, thanks to Pacifism's doubled Great Person generation rate.


Temporary Safety from Frederick
Frederick is indeed one of the AIs that will NOT attack us when he is Pleased with us, so we can safely ignore him as a potential military threat for now--and even if relations do sour over time due to failed Spies or border tensions, causing him to consider declaring war, we at least have both Axemen and Jaguars in our border Cities.


Since Frederick is our only source of Foreign Trade Routes at the moment, I would tend to remain at Peace with him during this turnset.

That said, a warmonger, if they are very successful, could gain a lot, too--a Holy Shrine, The Temple of Artemis, and a lot of Gold from capturing Cities. But, if your war stalls and isn't very successful, then you'll have thrown away a lot of Hammers that could have been switched from Mines into Specialists, and you'll have given up on your additional Trade Route income, so I'd say that if you choose to go to war, go full-out war by stealing Construction instead of Metal Casting from Frederick, working Mines, pumping a ton of units, and commmitting nearly every City to the war effort.
 
As always, I'm not voting for the strongest saves

:trophy3rd: (1 point): obsolete (strong save, but Frederick is at least something of an obstacle here)
:trophy2nd: (2 points): drlake (built both Pyramids and Great Library, but not a lot of infrastructure)
:trophy: (3 points): Wafflecakes (most challenging ;))
 
(strong save, but Frederick is at least something of an obstacle here)

I am a little confused at what this obstacle is, since Frederick is exactly where I wanted him to be.

Anyhow, sorry about my stupid misclick and completing the SoZ in the capital (ughh). I could have left that save in a much better position if I had been paying more attention (or perhaps less).
 
BTW, not very many other games going on in the forum. What will be the next turn-set length so I can get a head-start on it tonight... I may have some time.
 
BTW, not very many other games going on in the forum. What will be the next turn-set length so I can get a head-start on it tonight... I may have some time.
I am going to fathom a guess and say 50 turns.

Really, I think that it will be up to us as players--anyone who wants to give feedback can probably sway the decision.

That said, I don't see it being shorter than 40 turns, so it should be pretty safe for you to play at least that many.
 
I am a little confused at what this obstacle is, since Frederick is exactly where I wanted him to be.
I meant, he will present somewhat of an obstacle to me, as he does have a fair amount of land. I don't think he is an actual threat in terms of winning the game.
 
50 turns sounds fine. It's shorter but each turn takes more time now.

Since 5 out of 7 people have voted, I'll be looking to close the voting round earlier - tomorrow. You have about 24 hours left to vote!
 
Alright, since no new games were posted this evening, I went through my last save just incase it wins.

T-190
Spoiler :

I ended up winning liberalism, and then completed the Taj, also I finished the UoS in addition to this. Things went so-so until near the end of my turn-set. I had a bit of a small disaster again.

I put two stacks ready to hit both cities of the Romans to knock them out of the game. My cuirassiers vs his archers (lol). Then F*ck me, he immediately FRIENDLY vassals to Frederick before I could even hit the DoW button. Of course, all the gold I was going to get didn't happen, since I had to abort my plan. This then caused me to lose a tiny stack of my curassiers due to maintenance (I realized too late just as I had hit end-turn). Son of a b!tch.

Anyhow, final turns I started to whip more curassiers and fix my money problems. (what a waste). I will have to do things the hard way and knock out Frederick + his useless vassal the hard way. Anyhow, I've turned off a lot of my tech power the last few turns because I don't even want to do any trades with Frederick. I want to keep him backwards because I am going to steam-roll right over him and his ******ed vassal very, very, soon...

In other news, I have another great scientist standing by, and 3 caravals off scouting to make contact with other worlds. I don't see how I can lose the cirumnav bonus now...



 

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@ Mania
Spoiler :

I would have had to move a caraval to the other side of my continent anyway, so screw it.

Anyway, another blunder i made was I hadn't switched to mercantilism yet. Just wasting tones of beakers. I kept planning on switching to +1 TR instead, but it just hasn't worked out that way just yet. I'm also too used to Mercantilism dropping my science due to blocked TRs, but in this map we don't have to worry about that with no off-shore routes yet.

So that's two nasties I made, but the AI's are going to hope I make a lot more if they want to live...

 
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