SGOTM3 Rome - Xteam

AlanH said:

I've got it and will have a look and post some thoughts before I start. My first reaction is "OMG we have 58 legions. Why aren't we rulers of the world?"

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When you look at the save, count how many are on MP duty in our cities, keeping the population from unrest.

I have. What a waste!

We seem to be biding our time waiting for knights. Meanwhile we have 58 uniquue units - units with extra powers for their time - many of them sitting on MP duty. When knights arrive we'll be up against muskets. Right now our legions could be reducing that risk by deleting enemy cities. The longer we delay the worse it's going to get.

We need more cities to reduce our unit maintenance cost, and we need to use our UUs befor they are obsolete. We need more settlers to reduce our rioting population and create more cities. I see we have two about to complete. I may make some more.

Time's a-wasting. We should have those legions out razing cities and making room for new Roman ones. Our losses may be high, but they'll be obsolete before we use them at this rate, and they don't upgrade to anything. If using them means upping the lux slider then so be it. If that delays Invention then so be it. Sure we need Chivalry, but not at the expense of letting the AI get so far ahead that knights are obsolete before we build them.

AlanH said:

Time's a-wasting. We should have those legions out razing cities and making room for new Roman ones. Our losses may be high, but they'll be obsolete before we use them at this rate, and they don't upgrade to anything. If using them means upping the lux slider then so be it. If that delays Invention then so be it. Sure we need Chivalry, but not at the expense of letting the AI get so far ahead that knights are obsolete before we build them.

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This is exactly the point! While I started moving units out, we were set up for defense. The transition to offense will take a few more turns. We have a concentration of troops heading for Greece with Cats. Roads are being built to support movement for reinforcement to the east and north. I think we should also make a concentration of troops to the north and let them swing west after taking out Chartres and Corinth. I started the settlers so we can begin filling in behind the combat units. I wanted those Greek lux real bad, but didn't get there.

The city of Palmyra was built to attract enemy units towards the south and, hopefully, allow for freer action in the north. I don't know if it'll work, but there have been a lot of AI units down there. If we can defend there and the VoD, we should be able to swing around and ravage France and into England?? But the cost will be high and we need roads to move replacement forward.

Good luck Alan, there is much to do!!

AlanH said:

Not sure I understand ... you mean lone scientist or really zero? Or is there a negative missing from that sentence?

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Missing negative, sorry.
I'm not sure what we'd want all this excess gold for at this time. What we need to do is finish invention, trade it for something (hopefully we can get both Mono and Chivalry), then either go high-pace (see later) towards Chivalry or do lone scientist towards MT.

I agree that we need to get more legions out of our cities, so notch up the lux rate and let's roll However, I really don't mind if we have 0 gold when we finish Chivalry. At that point we'll probably have to do min research anyway so time Chivalry research (if we have to do it, we might as well get it asap, like I said before, we're not really taking advantage of the suitably placed iron+horses) with that in mind.

Good luck, Alan

Capt Buttkick said:

I agree that we need to get more legions out of our cities, so notch up the lux rate and let's roll However, I really don't mind if we have 0 gold when we finish Chivalry. At that point we'll probably have to do min research anyway so time Chivalry research (if we have to do it, we might as well get it asap, like I said before, we're not really taking advantage of the suitably placed iron+horses) with that in mind.

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I wish it were so simple. We don't have a researching infrastructure built, nor do we have many Marketplaces built. The decision then is whether to focus on research or lux? If we ratchet up the lux slider, Chivalry can not be researched quickly. If we try to get a reasonable research time for Chivalry, you can't push up the lux slider. Imho, this is why trading with the east is so important, it makes up for our shortfalls, and getting those Greek luxs is so important. Once we lose the potential to trade, we are up against it. We have a shot at a second chance at a GPT deal and we have to make it count.

I agree it is time for action, big time, but we should try to focus the action to make it as effective as possible.

@leif: Any reason why we haven't sold our barracks?

Agree on the focusing. My point was that at +23 gpt we should be able to do a bit of both: higher research speed and +10% lux.
Haven't looked at the save, though. Again I'm on the wrong comp...

AlanH said:

@leif: Any reason why we haven't sold our barracks?

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Only one, I didn't think of it!!

Capt Buttkick said:

Agree on the focusing. My point was that at +23 gpt we should be able to do a bit of both: higher research speed and +10% lux.
Haven't looked at the save, though. Again I'm on the wrong comp...

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You're right, we can do a bit of both. The research will not be as fast and the city MM will require a little extra work, imho. I am not sure what the optimum size would be (at this point some cities may be different), but we would have to get a settler or worker built before the size is reached or pay a penalty in extra lux tax or a taxman in the city that grows too big. It seems to me that size 6 requires 1 MP, 7 - 2 MP and 8 - 3 MP.

Good luck Alan, much to consider, and sorry about the Barracks!

leif erikson said:

Good luck Alan, much to consider, and sorry about the Barracks!

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No problem! I was only worried that I might be missing something - it has been known They weren't costing any maintenance once Sun Tzu was in, and the 30 gold we got for selling them wasn't going to go away, so nothing was lost.

I think I can run 10% lux and roughly break even and still do Invention in 5. As you say we then only need one MP at size 6. Rome is our only city bigger than that, and it has extra happy faces with the Hanging Gardens. I can move one of its spears out to liberate a more productive legion somewhere. I'll try to hold pops at 6 or less at least until we get the incense on line. More settlers and workers!

leif erikson said:

We have a shot at a second chance at a GPT deal and we have to make it count.

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I don't think we'll have a chance of another gpt deal. If we ask what they want for a tech they'll always say contacts. Once we give them contact they'll not give us anything for gpt.

We have to hope that when we trade for Mono we'll then be able to trade for Chivalry with a contact deal. We could try that right now, using contact for the Mono deal and hoping Chivalry is available on the same turn for another contact or from a different civ, but it's a real gamble.

@Leif: We have a significant force holed up in Gonzonium - legions and cats. Are they on their way to Paris? Or are they intended to provide a front line defensive shield? One of the things I realise I have trouble with re Legions is their ambiguous attack/defence role. You know where you are when the A and D in ADM are different

I'm at home now and looked into the save. Some not well connected thoughts.
I think we should complete invention in 2. We can easily afford it even with 10% lux (-60 gpt).

We have too many legions and to few horses.
I don't like to get chivalry at all with so few horses.

I don't think our western friends will do much research for us before they get contact.
So I would still go for a contact trade. But you can go for invention first and then look what's the situation.

We have too few workers for all the projects we have.

I still don't understand why everybody wants to go for the Greeks, especially Athens. There is so much good land to the N on our continent.

We need roads into these regions to connect to already existing roads. Then we can raze and settle and can move reinforcements at a decent speed.

AlanH said:

@Leif: We have a significant force holed up in Gonzonium - legions and cats. Are they on their way to Paris? Or are they intended to provide a front line defensive shield? One of the things I realise I have trouble with re Legions is their ambiguous attack/defence role. You know where you are when the A and D in ADM are different

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I inherited it from the Capt. However, I must say it has been very helpful in turning back the hordes that come through there. In the turn log, there are numerous references to the combats around Gonzomonium. The other reason so many units are there is because they were moved there for healing after combat. I wanted to extend the road towards Paris so that the cats could get there, but did not have the opportunity because of all the enemy units inbound.

Personally, I look at Legions as offensive with a bonus to protect themselves on the way to the target. You know me, I hate to attack with infantry unless I absolutely must because of the losses waiting to attack. Legion help to mitigate that.

klarius said:

I'm at home now and looked into the save.

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Glad to see you made it home safe and sound. Time for some good

klarius said:

I don't think our western friends will do much research for us before they get contact.
So I would still go for a contact trade. But you can go for invention first and then look what's the situation.

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They were pretty quick to get Monotheism and trade it amongst themselves and 2 of them require Chivalry for their UU. I was going to wait for Invention and then try my luck, but now Alan gets to make that call. His RNG is better than mine anyway.

klarius said:

We have too few workers for all the projects we have.

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I agree and we will now have our chance to make more as we have to keep our cities in balance between growth and rioting. We are also experiencing some maintenance problems as we are paying a ton of gold. We need more cities, quickly.

klarius said:

I still don't understand why everybody wants to go for the Greeks, especially Athens. There is so much good land to the N on our continent.

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Let me see if I can explain my reasoning. First is the obvious reason for me, they have 2 lux that we can readily hook up and utilize. Second, I hate having a civ at my back that requires me to hold back forces that I probably need where I want to attack. Third, we really lack the infrastructure to make war effectively to the north. We don't have roads on which our reinforcements can travel to sustain the bloody offensive operations that will occur. That also means that it will require a great deal of time to get our settlers there.

Taking out Greece allows us to get through the mountains to the north and start roading to the northwest while we eliminate someone (Greece, it'll make me feel good! ). Cleaning up the Greeks will mean we can head out with a lot more and get them there at the decisive point and time we choose, hopefully.

klarius said:

We need roads into these regions to connect to already existing roads. Then we can raze and settle and can move reinforcements at a decent speed.

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This is precisely the point and it requires Legions to protect them. Doesn't civ have Combat Workers? So far, there has been a flood of units into the VoD area, look at my turn log. I know it is too long, but it has details of every combat and most of them were around Gonzomonium and down in the Syracuse ares. It is difficult to protect workers building roads when small stacks of enemy units keep showing up and require that you engage them.

Again, good luck Alan.

Greece is still putting out troops that require us to defend. They also represent a safe haven for other AI units. I've just played two turns, and I've razed Athens. It certainly made me feel better . I'm also going to remove Liverpool and Seattle asap.

You posted too late, and I didn't turn science up to complete Invention in those turns. Meanwhile there's no change in the diplo situation.

Currently we have to defend against the English and Germans coming at us from the north and north west, the Babs, Russians and French from the north east, and the Greeks from the south west. I agree with leif, we need to get to a position where we only have one major front to fight on, not three.

I agree we need more horses for when we get Chivalry, an I'm building some. We shall need some cash to upgrade them as well. I don't see the point of getting Chivalry and being broke when it comes in. Meanwhile, legions are keeping the alien hordes at bay. I can fight swords with horses, at about a 50-60% success rate, but I need legions for defence against knights and to attack pikes.

I repeat, if we wait for Chivalry we let the AI get stronger and our knights may be obsolete when we get them. We have to start the attrition now.

@Alan
By razing Athens you made Greece stronger than before. They will now have a much nicer capital.
I agree that we should fight now, but for land that is worth something. If Greece, then the northern part.

The trickle of non-ressource units from the S and SE shouldn't have been a major problem.

Saving money doesn't help. You will probably have to throw in the cash anyways, if we should be able to buy chivalry. But we can earn the money for upgrades over time.

BTW horses also upgrade to cavs

I said, I'm building horses!

I'm going after greece in total. Athens was first because our units were oustide. Corinth is next.

It's 380 AD. I've completed Invention and traded it to the Iroquois for Mono. The Aztecs got it the same turn as us, Japan seems to be close to researching it themselves as they offered peanuts for it. India is still behing Engineering, and now Mono as well. Chivalry is not available yet on the other continent.

Gunpowder is at large locally, for all except Babs and Greece, so we face muskets. I can research Chivalry in 12 or Gunpowder in about 25 at a rate that will deplete us to zero gold. Or we can run min research build our gold reserves, and hope the other continent gets Chivalry soon. Comments?

AlanH said:

Gunpowder is at large locally, for all except Babs and Greece, so we face muskets. I can research Chivalry in 12 or Gunpowder in about 25 at a rate that will deplete us to zero gold. Or we can run min research build our gold reserves, and hope the other continent gets Chivalry soon. Comments?

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There is only one road to success at this stage, Chivalry. I say research it at Max, then turn down the slider and upgrade the horses we have available. We have 12 or so turns to build some horses for upgrade. Having just finished, I know you are going to need some Legions, so I wouldn't stop building them.

It will cost 70 sheilds per knight. That is about 5 turns in the larger cities and 7 to 10 in the others. We are still going to need Legions for a while and I see no reason not to attack with them.

Earlier you asked about Gonzomonium. If you can get a worker stack (3) to the mountain near Paris and can get a road built, I would start attacking in that direction too using the units there. I think that would have to be for the limited objective of setting us up to begin attacking that way. It might break up some of the enemy units as well if their roads are gone through Paris.

Keep up the good work, I know I feel better as well.

@Klarius - Despite my rant, I am open to any plan you wish to put forth. However, telling me we should attack England for their land is not enough right now. The reason is that we can't simply march to London and expect to succeed. The situation dictates more detail, plus I would like to learn and understand why your ideas are a smarter way to proceed.