Civ2 Source Code Petition

Basically what I found was that, although reasonable well-written, it lacks the authoritative feel that something like this needs; take a look at some legal jargon and you'll see what I mean (the GNU thing is rather good though ).

Thanks, I'm not too sure on the language issue. I don't want to press them and demand the code which could piss them off outright. How did the CTP guys frame it?

I would suggest removing all the stuff about customers not being interested in the game, getting a good rep. and other similar comments. It should be more technical and backed with real statistics (including that e-mail list BTW).

Ok, but I'll need some help on the statistics. Anything you can find on market share or historical studies would be appreciated.

Where the process itself is concerned, I would give Infograms flexibility—not to much though—so that they can put together a deal (see CTP example where Activision allowed the source code to be released on condition that the original game be purchased...or something to that effect; i.e. in this case, players must still purchase at least ONE Civ2 item--regardless of version).

Ok, I can work that in. As to making sure that only purchasers of the game can get the code, well, considering the No CD Crack, I don't know of any other way other than the honor code.

The other thing that is very important is the specification of WHICH version is to be released (ToT v.1.1 preferably since it’s the most advanced of the three (i.e. Original, MGE and ToT).You have to find out if it still exists first though.

There's been some debate on this. The main concern is that ToT is foreign to many and that it contains sprites, which are pretty damn close to what the current form of the game uses.

Another really important thing to include is the absolute indispensability of the accompanying comments (these were removed in the CTP deal because of the presence of derogatory language in the comments...or some similar dumb thing). If you don’t, you will have to go through the whole code to determine what’s what and that will take ages—as you can see if you go to the CTP thread at Poly.

Agreed. We have to know what the hell things do before we can start editing them. It'll be added.

I want to emphasize the importance of a physical copy of this petition, as stated by someone earlier: you can’t accidentally delete a physical copy…y’know?

(Give them a physical copy of the e-mail list, in addition to the letter of petition.)

Yes, it will be done.

Another thing: notice my signature? The link in it to this thread has been used numerous times so I suggest you all add a similar link to your signatures and websites. I know I’ve mentioned this before but I’m not sure if people got it. Note that one way of getting Civ3 players interested is to post in the Civ3 forums (note that by ‘post’ I mean post stuff about Civ3, not this thread—the mods will crucify you if you do otherwise…trust me).

I know, I know. I haven't been on CivFan that much, and I do employ it as Poly. It's been updated.

Perhaps we could start talking about how things would work if these guys release the bloody code: setting up a base now would save time later (i.e. in this group at least, who’s going to do what)—this is putting aside general input.

Having a clear picture of how all this will work will make things much easier.

A scripting of events would be a good idea. The problem is that we need a main organizer, for all the sites. Otherwise we could have people jumping the gun. I guess the continuing steps would be:

1) Find a person and address to contact.

2) Address the legal concerns in the letter and exactly what we want.

3) Finalize the letter.

4) Gather all the names and emails from the various organizers.

5) Assign one person or a committee to be in contact with with the recipient.

6) Send it in two forms, electronic and paper.

7) Wait.

Note that someone from Infograms will probably be checking out this and other sites to get an idea of what the real story is (i.e. anyone can put together a bunch of e-mails and write a letter but if they see work already being done it could have a minor—note that I said MINOR—impact on their decision).

And if Infograms says no, what have you lost except a few days-worth of work (you don’t have to quit work for this)?
The holidays are coming up so I don’t think this is asking too much—especially since most of you are probably posting while at work anyway, ahem.

True, true. I would caution though, that making plans of how to edit the game would open up a Pandora's Box.

And no, I post in my free time Ok, and a few other times at work too.

Harry Tuttle said:

There's been some debate on this. The main concern is that ToT is foreign to many and that it contains sprites, which are pretty damn close to what the current form of the game uses.

Click to expand...

But with what we know already and what we will learn from the source code, it will be much easier to add support for MGE/Classic to ToT than it will be to add ToT's features to the MGE code. The only reason to get MGE rather than ToT would be if they are willing to release the MGE code, but not the ToT code.

Hell, we might have more luck with ToT if we explicitly mention we don't want their fugly graphics (= less legal issues)!

I'm not sure what you mean with the last half.

yoshi said:

Perhaps we could start talking about how things would work if these guys release the bloody code: setting up a base now would save time later (i.e. in this group at least, who’s going to do what)—this is putting aside general input.

Click to expand...

I think that's way too early now, IMHO. Most people will probably only jump on board once the code's been released anyway (or once the word gets out that it's about to be released). I think the whole process will probably take months. So we can start wondering about that later. What we have to worry about now is what Harry said. Getting in touch with the right people etc.

The one or few people who would do that should probably live in the US, since that's where all the involved parties are, to minimize problems with time zones, international phone calls and shipping and more of such nonsense. They can always use the forums/e-mail to discuss issues with the rest of the community.

Ok, I've been looking on the Atari and Infogrames website.

Officially Infogrames is a holding company that exists as the parent company to all the Atari subsidiaries. Atari is broken up into mainly American and European divisions consisting of Production, Publishing, and Distribution segments.

As I see it, Atari, Inc (the United States division) controls all three segements for the United States. Now, this might be a good place to start, as it seems that this might be where the majority of the work of the company is done. Though, Infogrames is a French company, but their market might be slanted toward the United States more than Europe meaning that the decision makers might be located in the U.S.

Now, I went looking for contacts on Atari, Inc.'s site: http://corporate.infogrames.com/corp_worldwideoffices.php#northamerica

I think these contacts might be the ones to go to:

Corporate Communication
Nancy Bushkin
Tel: +1 212-726-6500

Financial Communication
us.ir@atari.com
Tel: +1 212-726-6500

Product PR
us.pr@atari.com
Tel: +1 978-921-3700

Here are the offices in the U.S.:

Other Offices

Atari Interactive, Inc.
50 Dunham Road
Beverly, MA 01915
978-921-3700


Atari, Inc. (Humongous Entertainment)
3855 Monte Villa Parkway
Bothell, WA 98021
425-486-9258

Atari, Inc.
2230 Broadway
Santa Monica, CA 90404
Main Phone: 310-595-2100

Atari, Inc.
613 Tasman Drive
Suite B
Sunnyvale, CA 94089
Main Phone: 408-212-7800

I think these are good prospects to start with. A word of caution. I think that we need to have everything together before we go to them and start asking to speak to someone. If we go in unprepared we'll look disorganized and be dismissed. People who work in corporate settings, or in any business settings, do not like to have their chain yanked and their time wasted.

There's been some debate on this. The main concern is that ToT is foreign to many and that it contains sprites, which are pretty damn close to what the current form of the game uses.

Click to expand...

The main thing that needs improvment if the code were available is the AI. To my mind the AI in CIV 3 is not a great improvement, if not worse? In fact its a pain in the arse. They're all mates in CIV3.

The CTP source code:

http://www.cfxweb.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2162


Poly version of CTP (list of changes):

http://ctp2files.apolyton.net/source/Apolyton_README.txt


I'll get back to you on the other stuff and will contact the guys at Poly about their petition and the letter (assuming they still have it).

They didn't have a petition. IIRC, one fanatic guy was sending e-mails, possibly calling around and preparing a letter when a former CtP developer happened to drop by on Apolyton and pulled some strings.

I think we could also definitely use someone on the inside.

yeah.. how do we get someone from inside in this??

I'd rather have the source code for Civilization 1 and you'd have a better chance of convincing it's owners to give it up than Civ 2 which is still sold in stores (saw it on the shelf the other day). I'd love to fix the stupid problems in that game and add in hit points.

Again, if the code is released in a similar manner to the way the CTP code was, you will still have to buy the game (i.e. you can mess with every part of the code except the part that requires an original CD to run the program). Where profit is concerned, they're not actually making any more Civ2 items AFAIK so this is just a case of trying to get rid of the remaining copies.

Mercator said:

They didn't have a petition. IIRC, one fanatic guy was sending e-mails, possibly calling around and preparing a letter when a former CtP developer happened to drop by on Apolyton and pulled some strings.

I think we could also definitely use someone on the inside.

Click to expand...

So who's going to play the fanatic?

What are the chances of a former Civ2 developer dropping by?

Again, if the code is released in a similar manner to the way the CTP code was, you will still have to buy the game (i.e. you can mess with every part of the code except the part that requires an original CD to run the program).

Click to expand...

This is inacurate. You would be allowed to remove the CD requirement (although Civ II original does not have it), but you would not be allowed to have more than one user per CD. Of course these terms are not the automatically, but they are still the most logical.

In fact it would be advantagious to remove any CD requirements so that one could play one's own music while playing the game.

Well guys I think the main concern is what license the code will be released under. There is already a CD crack for Civ 2 and its been out for years now. I really don't think there is a way around making any users of the modified code buy the game before using the modified one.

That is unless the holders of the code sell the source code as a seperate download and somehow require a random password to compile the code or at least play it.

Ok, now I'm wondering. Would it be possible to release 99% of the source code while keeping some sort of "lynch pin" out which can be sold? I mean once the code is released there would probably just be a few steps toward creating a full game from the source. So what "lynch pin" could be used to stop just anyone from compiling the code and giving it away for free once the code is released?

The best solution would of course be a source code release under some sort of open source license. Maybe one that makes making a profit completely out of bounds rendering any reselling of the compiled game as basically illegal?

Okay, either way profit is no longer a factor.

As people have said, It would be easier to make you own game from scratch than recycle the Civ2 code.

There's no real debate here. It's just a legal issue. AFAIK no one except from civers like us has much of an interest in this program; the legal issues shouldn't be an impediment to getting the code released.

Oh yeah, Yaro is back. We're going to be compiling a master list this weekend.

Harry Tuttle said:

Ok, now I'm wondering. Would it be possible to release 99% of the source code while keeping some sort of "lynch pin" out which can be sold?

Click to expand...

Not really, nothing full-proof anyway. Anyone with both the source and a copy of Civ2 should be able to compile and run it. That means he could potentially compile and distribute it, along with whichever files of the original game it needs...

What I could see them doing is that they wouldn't release the code for the xdaemon.dll, smedsnet.dll or other DLL files. I have no idea what those files actually do (well, except for the "art" dll's), but I don't think they contain any of the actual AI stuff etc.

That would mean you'd need a copy of Civ2 to get those files... Then again, not really either, as Cedric Greene's patch would already "fix" that.

The Letter: Version 4

Dear Infogrames,

This petition seeks to gain permission from you, the Civilization II/Sid Meier's Civilizaton II holders, for the release of the Civilization II source code. We present this petition to you in all good faith, as Civilization II fans, as loyal Civilization game franchise followers, and ultimately Civilization game purchasers.

For the past 9 years the computer game Civilization II has been on the market throughout the world. Also, derivatives of the original game, Civilization II: Multiplayer Gold Edition and Civilization II: Test of Time, have been on the market for over 6 years.

During this time Civilization II has enthralled millions with its addicting game play, its ease of use, and ultimately its adaptability to modifications. Since its release it has gained a following like no other game ever released. Even today, many years past the release of Civilization, there are 7 websites around the world devoted to the game and its predecessors. No one can deny Civilization 2 is a game that will forever be revered as a classic.

As with any game that has brought so much pleasure to its fans we, the members of Apolyton.net, Civfanatics.com, The Creative Design Group Civ 2 Forums, Civ.Org.pl, Civilization Center, the Civilization Webring Forum, and Civfr.com seek to learn more about the game which has enthralled us for nearly a decades worth of time. We, in full knowledge and consent, ask you to release the source code of Civilization II to us, the public, for use in modification for non-financial means. We only seek to better and modify the game that has been enjoyed for so long so that we can continue enjoying it, and all the Civilization genre games, including the upcoming the fourth so named Civilization game.

Again, we do not seek to gain financially from the aims set forth in this petition. We are committed to making the source code open to all, at no cost, so that others can continue to enjoy a game that has opened the world of gaming to so many.

As Civilization fans we realize that the source code to Civilization II may still be viewed as commercially viable to any such producer and distributor of the game. To those that seek to gain from the further commercial release of Civilization II we present the following arguments. Please realize that these arguments are presented in good faith, as we do not wish to prod anyone to give up the source code against their will or the will of the ultimate decision makers in the process. We only seek to present an argument and, hopefully, receive a viable argument as to the opposite of our goal.

The arguments for the release of the Civilization II source code:

1) Due to the recent release of Windows XP and the Operating System's penchant for not working well with old games, Civilization II has been increasingly troublesome to play. Major modifications to the root directory are required to run the game, causing problems for any Civ2/Windows XP user. As is evident, Windows XP has become the dominant Operating System for all new computers. Thus, Civilization II has become an obsolete game.

2) In a market dominated by 3 dimensional polygon games, graphic heavy "shooters", and game console like games, the idea of playing a game like Civilization II has been lost to many consumers. Very few people want to pay for a game that was originally released in 1997. Thus, Civilization II has become uninteresting to the vast majority of computer game consumers.

3) With the release of Civilization 3, Civilization 3 "add-ons", and the future release of Civilization 4, Civilization II has been passed by as the leading game in the genre of strategy/empire building. Only a few adamant players across the world have chosen to play Civilization II, not enough to be any sort of viable consumer base.

4) An avenue sometimes overlooked is the ability for "gamers" to improve a game. Many people talk about what they want in a game like Civilization II but few actually bother to bring their thoughts to fruition. With the release of the source code the small Civilization II gaming community could improve upon the game, outlining what they, the hardcore gamers, want in a strategy/empire building game. Needless to say, this opens up an opportunity for any future producers of games in the strategy/empire building genre to learn what gamers really want. The signers of this petition are the types of gamers that know what they want and tend to set a precedent for other like-minded gamers. Through the exploration of the internal workings of the Civilization II source code future designers can discover what exactly consumers desire from their strategy/empire building game. The opportunity for designers to learn, improve, and ultimately produce a better selling game is now.

5) Goodwill is an important part of retaining customers. In any industry it is important to reinforce the idea that producers want to satisfy their customers. Any business owner knows that a happy customer is a return customer and that a happy customer will spread the word of a well-meaning company. We, the signers of this petition, believe that releasing the source code to Civilization II is the perfect opportunity to build brand loyalty among Civilization fans. A great many game consumers like the idea that a game producer is out to not only create and sell a game, but to also entertain and satisfy their customers. Remember, a happy customer, is a return customer.

6) Building a following among fans creates an aura of infallibility. Fans of any game will ultimately be apt to continue purchasing any following games in a series. The "group think" among fans of any product, is that any future releases can only improve. With the release of the Civilization II source code many fans will view with affection later releases of the series, facilitating higher sales for the future game. Marketing does not only entail reinforcing the image of the latest game, but reinforcing the image of the entire series. The release of the source code will ignite a new interest in strategy/empire building games, creating a clamor for games of the same ilk.

Our Aim:

We seek a source code released under a public license. We do not seek to make public any graphics or video from Civ2. All we hope to receive is the source code so as to modify the main Civ2 executable, thereby allowing us, the modifiers and fans of Civ2, to compile the program, and to create a better, more bug free, game.

With the release of the code we also ask to have any designer comments included so we can understand why certain game mechanics work as they do.

Various signers of the petition have come up with possible licenses under which the code might be released. Two such possibilities are:

GNU General Public License (GPL): http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php

Creative Commons Public License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/legalcode

These licenses are examples. As stated before, we are fans, not practitioners of copyright law. We understand the legal implications of what we are asking but are not interested in minute legal details. We only wish to work with the source code for our own enjoyment.

As can be reasoned, releasing the source code to any game requires full transparency as to the aims of the party wishing for the code to be released. We assure you, as loyal Civ2 fans, that we are sincere in our plea and do not wish to gain financially from the release of the code. The only gain we hope to make is in the fulfillment of making a great game even better.

Please take this letter with the names and email addresses of the petition signers to heart. We, the fans of Civ2 await your reply.


Letter ends here, open to additions


************

Here's the latest version of the petition letter I just whipped up.

Changes:

- Updated the time since the various Civ 2 games were released to reflect the new year. I didn't try to nail down a specific date, just the general length of time in years.

- Changed some wording and grammar.

- Eliminated the conflicting "for non-financial means" and "release under GPL" language in the first part of the letter to reflect the licensing and distribution guidelines of the GPL.

Additions:

- Added and edited the "Aims" portion of the letter, giving us and the source code owners flexibility in how the code is released according to the official wording of the letter.

- Added civfr.com to the sites that have members signing the petition and updated the count of sites.

Nice work.

Here are some examples of the kind of lingo I was referring to before:

"...seek to learn more about the game which has enthralled us for nearly a decades worth of time."

[CORRECTION: '...for nearly a decade's worth of time' OR PREFERABLY '...for nearly a decade']

"...release the source code of Civilization II to us..."

[specify version: e.g. 'release the Civilization II: Test of Time (tm) version 1.11 source code']

"We only seek to better and modify the game that has been enjoyed for so long so that we can continue enjoying it, and all the Civilization genre games, including the upcoming the fourth so named Civilization game."

How about this:

‘The signatories of this petition seek to address, or support the addressing of some, if not all issues left unresolved following the release of version 1.11 final update and to allow for supplementary player modification of the completed project.’

Well, you get the idea…


Oh BTW, someone please elaborate on this (i.e. who just bought the franchise?):

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/civilization-iv/568764p1.html

Well I like everything but the second edit of the wording. I think it is important that we specify what we are looking for in the "Our Aim" portion of the letter so the details don't get in the way of the "goodwill" portion and vice versa. Here's an updated version...

The Letter: Version 5

Dear Infogrames,

This petition seeks to gain permission from you, the Civilization II/Sid Meier's Civilizaton II holders, for the release of the Civilization II source code. We present this petition to you in all good faith, as Civilization II fans, as loyal Civilization game franchise followers, and ultimately Civilization game purchasers.

For the past 9 years the computer game Civilization II has been on the market throughout the world. Also, derivatives of the original game, Civilization II: Multiplayer Gold Edition and Civilization II: Test of Time, have been on the market for over 6 years.

During this time Civilization II has enthralled millions with its addicting game play, its ease of use, and ultimately its adaptability to modifications. Since its release it has gained a following like no other game ever released. Even today, many years past the release of Civilization, there are 8 active online communities around the world devoted to the game and its predecessors. No one can deny Civilization II is a game that will forever be revered as a classic.

As with any game that has brought so much pleasure to its fans we, the members of Apolyton.net, Civfanatics.com, The Creative Design Group Civ 2 Forums, Civ.Org.pl, Civilization Center, Civilization Gaming Network, the Civilization Webring Forum, and Civfr.com seek to learn more about the game which has enthralled us for nearly a decade’s worth of time. We, in full knowledge and consent, ask you to release the source code of Civilization II to us, the public, for use in modification for non-financial means. We only seek to better and modify the game that has been enjoyed for so long so that we can continue enjoying it, and all the Civilization genre games, including the upcoming the fourth so named Civilization game.

Again, we do not seek to gain financially from the aims set forth in this petition. We are committed to making the source code open to all, at no cost, so that others can continue to enjoy a game that has opened the world of gaming to so many.

As Civilization fans we realize that the source code to Civilization II may still be viewed as commercially viable to any such producer and distributor of the game. To those that seek to gain from the further commercial release of Civilization II we present the following arguments. Please realize that these arguments are presented in good faith, as we do not wish to prod anyone to give up the source code against their will or the will of the ultimate decision makers in the process. We only seek to present an argument and, hopefully, receive a viable argument as to the opposite of our goal.

The arguments for the release of the Civilization II source code:

1) Due to the recent release of Windows XP and the Operating System's penchant for not working well with old games, Civilization II has been increasingly troublesome to play. Major modifications to the root directory are required to run the game, causing problems for any Civ II/Windows XP user. As is evident, Windows XP has become the dominant Operating System for all new computers. Thus, Civilization II has become an obsolete game.

2) In a market dominated by 3 dimensional polygon games, graphic heavy "shooters", and game console like games, the idea of playing a game like Civilization II has been lost to many consumers. Very few people want to pay for a game that was originally released in 1997. Thus, Civilization II has become uninteresting to the vast majority of computer game consumers.

3) With the release of Civilization 3, Civilization 3 "add-ons", and the future release of Civilization 4, Civilization II has been passed by as the leading game in the genre of strategy/empire building. Only a few adamant players across the world have chosen to play Civilization II, not enough to be any sort of viable consumer base.

4) An avenue sometimes overlooked is the ability for "gamers" to improve a game. Many people talk about what they want in a game like Civilization II but few actually bother to bring their thoughts to fruition. With the release of the source code the small Civilization II gaming community could improve upon the game, outlining what they, the hardcore gamers, want in a strategy/empire building game. Needless to say, this opens up an opportunity for any future producers of games in the strategy/empire building genre to learn what gamers really want. The signers of this petition are the types of gamers that know what they want and tend to set a precedent for other like-minded gamers. Through the exploration of the internal workings of the Civilization II source code future designers can discover what exactly consumers desire from their strategy/empire building game. The opportunity for designers to learn, improve, and ultimately produce a better selling game is now.

5) Goodwill is an important part of retaining customers. In any industry it is important to reinforce the idea that producers want to satisfy their customers. Any business owner knows that a happy customer is a return customer and that a happy customer will spread the word of a well-meaning company. We, the signers of this petition, believe that releasing the source code to Civilization II is the perfect opportunity to build brand loyalty among Civilization fans. A great many game consumers like the idea that a game producer is out to not only create and sell a game, but to also entertain and satisfy their customers. Remember, a happy customer, is a return customer.

6) Building a following among fans creates an aura of infallibility. Fans of any game will ultimately be apt to continue purchasing any following games in a series. The "group think" among fans of any product, is that any future releases can only improve. With the release of the Civilization II source code many fans will view with affection later releases of the series, facilitating higher sales for the future game. Marketing does not only entail reinforcing the image of the latest game, but reinforcing the image of the entire series. The release of the source code will ignite a new interest in strategy/empire building games, creating a clamor for games of the same ilk.

Our Aim:

We seek the release of the source code for Civilization II: Multiplayer Gold Edition v1.3 or if possible, Civilization II: Test of Time v1.11.

We seek a source code released under a public license. We do not seek to make public any graphics or video from Civ II. All we hope to receive is the source code so as to modify the main Civ II executable, thereby allowing us, the modifiers and fans of Civ II, to compile the program, and to create a better, more bug free, game.

With the release of the code we also ask to have any designer comments included so we can understand why certain game mechanics work as they do.

Various signers of the petition have come up with possible licenses under which the code might be released. Two such possibilities are:

GNU General Public License (GPL): http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php

Creative Commons Public License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/legalcode

These licenses are examples. As stated before, we are fans, not practitioners of copyright law. We understand the legal implications of what we are asking but are not interested in minute legal details. We only wish to work with the source code for our own enjoyment.

As can be reasoned, releasing the source code to any game requires full transparency as to the aims of the party wishing for the code to be released. We assure you, as loyal Civ II fans, that we are sincere in our plea and do not wish to gain financially from the release of the code. The only gain we hope to make is in the fulfillment of making a great game even better.

Please take this letter with the names and email addresses of the petition signers to heart. We, the fans of Civ II await your reply.


Letter ends here, open to additions

and no, the buyer was never specified. But, the deal was for future additions in the franchise, not the old games. It is highly probable that Civ2 is still with Infogrames.

Ah, I see.

Perhaps you're right about not focusing too much on the details. Just keep in mind that if this thing goes through and the legal aspect rears its ugly head, specifics will inevitably come into it.

Looks good. If everything goes well, we should have the code before this petition gets one year old.

(Sorry, no real comments; I only want to express my gratitude to you who are active in this.)