Ask A Catholic II

Jehoshua said:

Indeed Mary is in heaven in perfect praise and adoration of the Lord along with all the others who have achieved the beatific vision.

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You are making an authoritative statement of fact for something that you cannot know. Christ is even quoted as saying "Judge not, lest ye be judged", and common interpretation is that this includes guessing about other people's spiritual status.

You don't know if Mary made it to Heaven, or Peter, or Paul. We cannot know. To assume that they did is to make a theological error. Especially if we give credence to Jesus's warning about assumptions

You are making an authoritative statement of fact for something that you cannot know. Christ is even quoted as saying "Judge not, lest ye be judged", and common interpretation is that this includes guessing about other people's spiritual status.

You don't know if Mary made it to Heaven, or Peter, or Paul. We cannot know. To assume that they did is to make a theological error. Especially if we give credence to Jesus's warning about assumptions

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Actually, Paul says in Scripture he's on his way to Heaven, and the fact that Paul and Peter were martyred for their faith and refusal to deny it is pretty good evidence that they were saved. And besides, they penned part of God's Word. As for Mary, she bore God's Son. Would a heathen be allowed to bear God's Son?

Those are all good reasons to suggest that they might have. It's not sufficient to make a statement of fact. Paul's declaration of salvation is no more authoritative than yours or mine is.
Only God knows (and maybe they know, if awakening in Heaven happens in real Earth time). You're making statements for which you have no more evidence than I do, and I cannot know. Neither can you.

So, Paul knew he was going to Heaven before he died? I would say that's enormously presumptuous of him, assuming a heartless and uncaring God as presented in much of the Bible.

Arakhor said:

So, Paul knew he was going to Heaven before he died? I would say that's enormously presumptuous of him, assuming a heartless and uncaring God as presented in much of the Bible.

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Well, there was a recent event that could give him hope Arakhor!

El_Machinae said:

Those are all good reasons to suggest that they might have. It's not sufficient to make a statement of fact. Paul's declaration of salvation is no more authoritative than yours or mine is.
Only God knows (and maybe they know, if awakening in Heaven happens in real Earth time). You're making statements for which you have no more evidence than I do, and I cannot know. Neither can you.

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"You will know them by their fruit..."

Arakhor said:

So, Paul knew he was going to Heaven before he died? I would say that's enormously presumptuous of him, assuming a heartless and uncaring God as presented in much of the Bible.

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http://niv.scripturetext.com/2_timothy/4.htm

Arakhor said:

So, Paul knew he was going to Heaven before he died? I would say that's enormously presumptuous of him, assuming a heartless and uncaring God as presented in much of the Bible.

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Paul alleged himself to have gone to heaven, presumably when he was left for dead after a stoning. After one visit, I doubt he would have done anything to jeopardize his final vist there, even if he could loose the ability to do so.

I didn't know you were a Catholic, Mr. Domination.

Takhisis said:

I didn't know you were a Catholic, Mr. Domination.

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Just because I believe Mary is in Heaven does not mean I believe that she should be venerated, prayed too, or whatever other crap....

When has ANY Christian suggested Mary was not in Heaven?

I meant that this is 'Ask a Catholic'…

Takhisis said:

I meant that this is 'Ask a Catholic'…

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Doesn't matter, it's not good for christians to separate themselves.

Takhisis said:

I meant that this is 'Ask a Catholic'…

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I still feel obligated to point out an obvious inconsistency. In this case, what I said didn't contradict Catholicism anyway.

Holycannoli said:

Doesn't matter, it's not good for christians to separate themselves.

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Yes, that is true...

Meh, I'd already stacked up a lof of firewood… I'll keep it handy anyway.

El_Machinae said:

You are making an authoritative statement of fact for something that you cannot know. Christ is even quoted as saying "Judge not, lest ye be judged", and common interpretation is that this includes guessing about other people's spiritual status.

You don't know if Mary made it to Heaven, or Peter, or Paul. We cannot know. To assume that they did is to make a theological error. Especially if we give credence to Jesus's warning about assumptions

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But Peter, Paul, and Mary have all been formally recognized by the Church as saints, and the universal declaration of the Church comes from the will of God, not the judgments of individuals. (Use the Church in reference to Catholicism or Orthodoxy here. I'm pretty sure that works in both systems.)

This would be a good opportunity to explain the concept of 'infallible' and when it has been used. And, I think, the question of whether the Church's declaration of their sainthood is considered an infallible declaration!

Additionally, it continues to be a statement about facts that you cannot know.

What is your opinion of Pope John XXII? Ignoring for the moment his personal view (which was certainly never an ex cathedra proclamation of doctrine) that saints do not receive the beatific vision until judgement day, how do you address the allegation that his bull Quia Quorundam contain an ex cathedra proclamation that papal infallibility is a false doctrine which comes from the Father of Lies?

the infallibility of the Church is the doctrine that in accord with Christ's promise that he will not leave us orphans, that he will be with us until the end of days and that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church, that the universal and ordinary magisterium when declaring on matters of faith and morals is preserved from error.

This is extended also into papal infallibility which is that the pope when solemnly and ex-cathedra pronounces on matters of faith and morals is preserved from doctrinal error by the Holy Spirit. This event is exeedingly rare and has occured only two or three times.

In regards to the canonisation of saints, the acknowledgement that someone is a saint in heaven is based on the recognition of miracles conducted by God to an individual after the intercession of a saint to Christ. That is someone has asked a saint to pray for them and a miraculous event, often a scientifically unexplainable healing has occured which the Church after rigourous scientific examination considers worthy of belief.

As to Mary and the apostles being in heaven, the sensus fidelium, the universal belief of the Church has been that they are since long before any of us. Likewise the Virgin Mary is believed that in order to bear God the Son as her son Jesus Christ that upon her conception she was cleansed of original sin and that she in her life commited no personal sin.

It is likewise universally believed by all the ancient apostolic churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox included) and likewise by all christians until the advent of protestantism in the 15th century, that according to the sacred tradition of the Church, Mary upon reaching the end of her earthly life was assumed into heaven body and soul in honour as the theotokos (God-bearer).

El_Machinae said:

This would be a good opportunity to explain the concept of 'infallible' and when it has been used. And, I think, the question of whether the Church's declaration of their sainthood is considered an infallible declaration!

Additionally, it continues to be a statement about facts that you cannot know.

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Actually, there are different kinds of infallibility, the two that I can remember are Papal Infallibility and Ecumenical Council Infallibility. Papal infallibility is very rare, used only four times, Wikipedia sums it up decently as

"Papal infallibility is the dogma in Roman Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics. This dogma, however, does not state either that the Pope cannot sin in his own personal life or that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity, outside the specific contexts in which the dogma applies."

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A fundamental error many people make is that they think the Catholic Church makes Saints, it in fact does not, it recognizes them. a good summary of the four steps is below

Servant of God - As soon as the cause is opened for consideration the deceased is called "Servant of God. Such as a friend (the Actor Causae) recommends you to be considered to sainthood (typically 5 to 50 years after your death). The Bishop starts investigating and decides that there is a chance they might pass the process. In this investigation, friends, family, coworkers will be interviewed, and your beliefs will be looked into, to be sure you weren't a heretic. Then the research is translated into Latin and sent to Rome.
Venerable - This is what the deceased is called after the Vatican Congregation for the Causes of Saints determines that you did indeed lived a life of heroic virtue (constantly striving to be holy).
Blessed - After the Church establishes one miracle attributed to your intercession, your cause is presented to the Pope to determine your worthiness of being called "Blessed." This is the next-to-last step, and is called "Beatification." If you were martyred, then no miracle is needed, martyrdom counts. A group of Italian doctors (Consulta Medica) will try to find a scientific explanation for the supposed miracle. Some are Catholic, some are not, but all are great doctors. Instances of Incorruptibility, Liquefaction, Odor of Sanctity, Levitation, Bilocation, and Stigmata are also searched for, but those are rare.
Saint - After another miracle is found, then your cause is presented to the Pope again for His judgement. If he determines that the evidence is clear and that contrary reports aren't credible, He may initiate the canonization procedure, which will end in you're recognization as a Saint. This final recognition takes place in the context of a Mass, and a huge tapestry with an image of the deceased is presented for the faithful to look at and admire.

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OTOH there is Ecumenical Council Infallibility this dictates "that solemn definitions of ecumenical councils, approved by the Pope, which concern faith or morals, and to which the whole Church must adhere are infallible. Such decrees are often labeled as 'Canons' and they often have an attached anathema, a penalty of excommunication, against those who refuse to believe the teaching. The doctrine does not claim that every aspect of every ecumenical council is infallible.
The Catholic Church holds this doctrine, as do most or all Eastern Orthodox theologians. "

MagisterCultuum said:

What is your opinion of Pope John XXII? Ignoring for the moment his personal view (which was certainly never an ex cathedra proclamation of doctrine) that saints do not receive the beatific vision until judgement day, how do you address the allegation that his bull Quia Quorundam contain an ex cathedra proclamation that papal infallibility is a false doctrine which comes from the Father of Lies?

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For a pronouncement to be infallible it must follow certain pre-conditions which are that its Ex Cathedra, he officially defines something, that its a doctrine on faith or moralas and that it is to be held by the whole Church.

hence to the dogmatisation of the assumption, a belief universally beleived in the Church but never defined was preclaimed ex-cathedra as below.

""By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory"

and to it is added this

"Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

This shows the other essential characteristics of an infallible pronouncement that is that it contains a verbal formula indicating the teaching is definitive (we declare, decree and define...)

And that it contains an accompanying anathema to those who would dissent from the doctrine. (the second part of the pronouncement i put above)

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Thus in relation to John XXIII these formulae are absent and thus the pronouncement was not ex-cathedra, merely personal opinion expressed in an encyclical.

This is logical considering that if his personal opinion on the matter was one of rejection then he wouldn't of used it anyway. It is also an example of the preservation of Church doctrine by the Holy Spirit. A pope can belive all manner of heretical teachings but the Church is protected by the Holy spirit as according to Christ from doctrinal error (ie infallibility of the Church and its extension papal infallibility). Thus we see in this case that a pope held some questionable views but the Church's doctrine remained uncorrupted and whole.

As to Mary and the apostles being in heaven, the sensus fidelium, the universal belief of the Church has been that they are since long before any of us. Likewise the Virgin Mary is believed that in order to bear God the Son as her son Jesus Christ that upon her conception she was cleansed of original sin and that she in her life commited no personal sin.

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Romans 3:23

For ALL (Note, not "All except Mary") have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

To claim that Mary is perfect is in denial of Scripture. Now, what will you choose, the Pope or the Bible, you cannot have both!

I will take God's Words above the Word of Man.