The AI don't cheat!

TheNiceOne

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Of course it does, but much less than it has been accused of (see the complete cheat guide thread for a round-up).

Yesterday I decided to check the suspected border violation cheat: that the AI units can move more freely inside human borders than vice versa without being forced to move out.

The conclusion is simple: There is no cheat involved here, the AI follows exactly the same rule as the human player, and when everything is similar, both can stay in enemy territory exactly the same number of turns before being forced to withdraw or declare war.

There are three factors that determine how many turns your unit can stay in enemy territory. Those are:

1) Type of units (military - non military), although for military units, theyr A/D is irrelevant, a warrior can't stay longer than a swordman. But a settler can stay much longer.

2) Number of units. If you have more units inside enemy borders, they can stay much shorter.

3) Distance to enemy city. A unit can stay a much shorter time if close to an enemy city.


My test was to fire up the editor and make a map consisting of two symmetrical, tiny (3x3 square) islands. One with a Roman and one with an Egyptian city.

In the first test a roman warrior started adjacent to the egyptian city and an egyptian warrior adjacent to the roman city. The result was simple: The first turn possible, both had to leave.

Then I added one square to each islands and put the warriors there, two squares away from the cities. I also gave each city a palace and a culture of 9, meaning that the warrior squares would be inside enemy borders after the first turn. The result was that 1 warrior could stay for 1 turn, but 2 had to leave the first turn after border expansion.

Then, I did the same, but one square further away (3 suqares from the city). Now one warrior could stay 3 turns, 2 or 3 warriors could stay 1 turn and 4 warriors had to leave immediately.

4 squares away gave the same results as 3 squares.

Then I tested with settlers 4 squares from the city. One settler had to leave after 31 turns while 2 had to leave after 15 turns.


That was my last test, but I will probably test how moving around affects the number of turns. The most interesting conclusion is clear though: The AI cannot stay longer inside human borders than vice versa. I guess the reason for this (false) accusation is that the AI often only comes with a unit or two, while the human moves with larger stacks.
 
I have to say, I never thought the rules were different - I didn't realise that people were saying they were. I've always found that '<Your troops will move automatically> came up equally for me and for the AI.

All the better if you're right!
 
Yes it has always been the same. The thing is that the AI continues to violate your borders at all times. And they will be getting MORE and MORE annoyed at you for telling them to leave.
 
Thanks, TheNiceOne. Good test! I always suspected it worked like that (non-combat units can stay longer, fewer combat units can stay longer than more). I think most players don't even bother to think why it is that their 30 MA's can't stay next to the enemy capital, while their lone settler and guards gets to move a few turns before they can be forced to move.

By the way, Grey Fox; I always continue to enter the AI's territory after I've been thrown out, especially when I'm exploring. The AI is no worse than me in that sense.
 
Originally posted by Hurricane
By the way, Grey Fox; I always continue to enter the AI's territory after I've been thrown out, especially when I'm exploring. The AI is no worse than me in that sense.

This is my philosophy too. If they are going to treat the borders as guidelines so will I.
 
Pillager, if you search the forum, you will find several threads where the topic is whining because the AI can stay so much longer in your territory than you can in theirs.

I think Hurricane explained it very well ;)


It looks to me as the only cheats in CIV3 are that the AI knows more than it should (where future resources will come, where your units are etc.), and maybe that they get less reputation hits from breaking deals.

Everything else is played by the same rules, except for the issues controlled by the difficulty setting of course.
 
you will find several threads where the topic is whining because the AI can stay so much longer in your territory than you can in theirs.


well i dont whine about this but i do feel that the are AI civs getting away with it (unless i declare war) while i have to move my units out ASAP, this is pretty one sided. i dont really go into anyone elses territory and it has been said that if you have a larger military force weaker civs usually will not cross into your territory.......well how else can they know how many troops i have and where they are unless A) they have a spy (and i dont think anyone can have a spy during ancient times, correct me if i'm wrong here) or B) they simply cheat. now which is it???? i notice that even during a war they will go straight for cities with less units, how do they know those cities have less units if they dont have the tech needed to create a spy? they cheat. either that or they "investigate city" and look at each of your cities on a continual basis after they establish an embassy. that takes gold and might explain why they have so little when they come to trade with you. now since you cant investigate a city during war how do they know then even after you move your troops around??? cheating.


i dont think they cheat movement wise but i think they know a TAD too much about our civ before they do things like crossing over into our territory with settlers or merely probing our borders just to see what we'll do.
 
CivIIenthusiast, have you bothered to read this thread, and the extensive cheating thread I referred to in the first post? If you do, you'll find that:

1) I have actually tested and found that the AI can be thrown out exactly as fast as human are thrown out. What you feel is pretty irrellevant when your feeling is incorrect.

2) Yes, they cheat when it comes to knowledge. They know where your units are and a few other things. Check the "complete cheat guide" thread for a full list of knowledge cheats.

But note that whether anoter civ has a stronger or weaker military force than you is open information. Check your military advisor and he will tell you without the need of a spy.
 
Originally posted by Grey Fox
Yes it has always been the same. The thing is that the AI continues to violate your borders at all times. And they will be getting MORE and MORE annoyed at you for telling them to leave.

YES! Of all the things I love about Civ3, this has got to be the ONE thing that pisses me off. I have no idea why Soren programmed the AI like that. I certainly can understand a Militaristic, aggressive civ being programmed like that but not the peaceful ones.

Furthermore, if you are friends or polite with another Civ, there is no choice to nicely ask for their units to leave. It's always "Get off my turf now!!!" which is unfortunate.

At any rate, when I ask Civs to leave they say, "ok" and then proceed to move FURTHER into my territory! Or, if they were moved automatically out of my territory, the very next turn they move back in!! :mad: What kind of maniacle nonsense is that!?

Ugggrrrrhhhh. I don't get it . . . ! Soren, what were you eating/drinking at the time?

Yikes.

(ooh, it just makes me so mad)
 
Originally posted by TheNiceOne

Yesterday I decided to check the suspected border violation cheat: that the AI units can move more freely inside human borders than vice versa without being forced to move out.

Great job, TheNiceOne! :goodjob:

I was convinced it was otherwise. (Shows you what I know ;) )
 
Anyway:

Can anyone remember an AI doing a "fair" attack??? I mean, excepting when they declare war via extortion, they ALWAYS go into your territory before declaring war. Still, they sign RoP's all the times!!! now, that is what I complain about in what it takes to borders!!
 
Originally posted by TheNiceOne
and maybe that they get less reputation hits from breaking deals.

When I play they never seem to be affected by reputation much. I have seen the Persians and English make, break, and remake mutual protection pacts and right of passages all the time. I doubt that they really have to worry about reputation anywhere near the amount a player does which is bascially break one deal and you are almost permenantly unable to make certain deals.

It would be difficult to prove or disprove this with 100% certainty though since you can't watch what they say to each other when "trying" to make deals.
 
1) I have actually tested and found that the AI can be thrown out exactly as fast as human are thrown out. What you feel is pretty irrellevant when your feeling is incorrect.

How so? Only if it's a border threat then they'll get out but if it's not then they can stay in like the human does. Unless I do that they won't get out. And I don't think it's cheating but I think it's cheap because I never get into their borders except for accidental incursions.
 
Originally posted by hbdragon88
How so? Only if it's a border threat then they'll get out but if it's not then they can stay in like the human does. Unless I do that they won't get out.

What do you mean? :confused:
 
If you say "Your forces are within our borders. They MUST be withdrawn!" that's a border warning. But if you say "Remove your forces from our borders or declare WAR!"
 
The trick to managing this is to use a few units to make the AI move it's "offending" units in the direction of your choosing, not it's. What I'm talking about here is the "free trip to the unsettled land on the other side" BS, where the AI gets deep enough into your territory before you can force them to leave that they get to where they are going, instead of back where they came from.

Cheers,
Shawn
 
I've repeatedly signed and broken MPPs with the same AI civ during the modern age, once or twice with actual wars against that civ in between. It seems to me that if you're powerful enough the AI is almost always willing to join MPPs (for a price, of course).
 
Great objective study! I posted a thread about that...I was saying it was the only thing that bugged me in CIV III...I didnt understand it...of course when I entered the AI borders they could show me the door instantly...not me (because the AI was just bringing a settler with a warrior)

Now I'll be just sending a settler! no offensive units...
Anyways it would be great to show the door instantly every time...
Its like a russian tank entering China...China would require the tank to back up immediately not 2 turns (lets say 3 days) after...!

Will I get a Rep Hit if I attack a unit that doesnt have a ROP with me ? even a settler... :confused:
 
Le Petit Prince, I agree that you should be able to choose between a nice request and an ultimatum, even the first turn a settler enters your territory.

Threats about war should then make the other civ more hostile.
 
Originally posted by Le Petit Prince


Will I get a Rep Hit if I attack a unit that doesnt have a ROP with me ? even a settler... :confused:

You can attack anytime you do not have a ongoing Treaty with that Civ. (Just check the active treaties in the Diplomacy screen.) You will not get a Reputation hit for declaring war. That is not the same thing as saying they will be happy about it!



It is not a dishonor to declare war. It is only a dishonor to promise one thing and do another. Declare war before attacking.

http://www.zachriel.com/Justification.htm
 
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