Wonder Graphics:Winter War Monument

Here's my patriotic side showing: Winter War Monument. Portrays an unknown soldier standing firmly, watching east, holding a submachinegun. There's lots of things to wonder in the world war II and whole military history - and the Winter War is definitely one of them. Odds were quite the same as Leonidas had with the Persians in Thermopylae Pass.

Use it as a "give barracks" wonder or something like that. Should fit well in WWII mods and scenarios.

Ukas

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What was the Winter War?

Originally posted by Ukas
Odds were quite the same as Leonidas had with the Persians in Thermopylae Pass.

Ukas

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... Ah, but Leonidas lacked the Mannerheim Line and all those fine fellows who made the biathlon (sp? -- cross-country skiing and target shooting combined) a meaningful Olympic event.

Zulu -- the Winter War was the Russo-Finnish war of 1939. Vast lumbering columns of Soviet armor on snow-choked roads getting cut to ribbons by incredibly valiant, under-anti-armor-armed Finnish troops.

Actually, a better historical analaogy might be the elimination of the -- danged, I forget the unit's designation -- French armored column in Indochina during that war.

Best,

Oz

PS The reason I view the "Maginot" Line as a Minor Wonder is exactly because of the Mannerheim Line et. al.

-O.

Originally posted by ozymandias


... Ah, but Leonidas lacked the Mannerheim Line and all those fine fellows who made the biathlon (sp? -- cross-country skiing and target shooting combined) a meaningful Olympic event.

Zulu -- the Winter War was the Russo-Finnish war of 1939. Vast lumbering columns of Soviet armor on snow-choked roads getting cut to ribbons by incredibly valiant, under-anti-armor-armed Finnish troops.
-O.

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Hiya Oz

That's not the whole truth I'm afraid. It was not a question of a sudden strike against a column but almost a month long battle where few thousand Finns wiped out two Soviet divisions (44th and 163rd). It it true they were in column at first but at there were much less Finns present when it started, like 3000 or so.

In southern part of the front where majority of the fighting took place the were fixed fronts and fighting formations of Soviets.

The mannerheim line was not really nothing compared to the Maginot line. In many places it was a series of foxholes or if advanced some trenches where infantry was dug in defensive positions. Bunkers were few because of the high cost of them. Basicly nothing a retreating army couldn't construct in two days. The Soviet propaganda raised its importance in effort to explain the massive losses.

Can read more from:

http://www.feldgrau.com/wwar.html

From the page, Juha Ilo's text:

Finnish field army lost 22849 men killed or missed in action and 43557 wounded, of which nearly 10000 permanently disabled. Official Soviet estimates show 230000 total casualties, but for example German Wehrmacht studies the following year(41) reckoned 273000 dead and 800000 wounded. This would raise the total casualties 5 times higher, over a million. Even Hrutshev himself has said that "I’d say we lost as many as million lives" when referring to Winter War in his memoirs.

Originally posted by Ukas



Hiya Oz

That's not the whole truth I'm afraid. It was not a question of a sudden strike against a column but almost a month long battle where few thousand Finns wiped out two Soviet divisions (44th and 163rd). It it true they were in column at first but at there were much less Finns present when it started, like 3000 or so.

In southern part of the front where majority of the fighting took place the were fixed fronts and fighting formations of Soviets.

The mannerheim line was not really nothing compared to the Maginot line. In many places it was a series of foxholes or if advanced some trenches where infantry was dug in defensive positions. Bunkers were few because of the high cost of them. Basicly nothing a retreating army couldn't construct in two days. The Soviet propaganda raised its importance in effort to explain the massive losses.

Can read more from:

http://www.feldgrau.com/wwar.html

From the page, Juha Ilo's text:

Finnish field army lost 22849 men killed or missed in action and 43557 wounded, of which nearly 10000 permanently disabled. Official Soviet estimates show 230000 total casualties, but for example German Wehrmacht studies the following year(41) reckoned 273000 dead and 800000 wounded. This would raise the total casualties 5 times higher, over a million. Even Hrutshev himself has said that "I’d say we lost as many as million lives" when referring to Winter War in his memoirs.

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Wow! I'm clearly rusty on that corner of history -- many thanks for the refresher. Maybe it's just because the Soviets were so busy that year -- Poland, the Baltic States, Finland, Nomonhan/khlakhin-Gol against the Japanese ...

... A million lives. Any idea what Finland's population was at the time and what % were under arms?

-Oz

PS I'm beginning to wonder if a PRE-WW2 Soviet-centered scenario -- well, Japanese in mainland Asia of course as well -- might be interesting ...

-O.

Originally posted by ozymandias

... A million lives. Any idea what Finland's population was at the time

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I'm not sure but somewhere around 3-3,5 million

Originally posted by ozymandias

Wow! I'm clearly rusty on that corner of history -- many thanks for the refresher. Maybe it's just because the Soviets were so busy that year -- Poland, the Baltic States, Finland, Nomonhan/khlakhin-Gol against the Japanese ...

... A million lives. Any idea what Finland's population was at the time and what % were under arms?

-Oz

PS I'm beginning to wonder if a PRE-WW2 Soviet-centered scenario -- well, Japanese in mainland Asia of course as well -- might be interesting ...

-O.

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Sure, we can't know everything can we. History writing is based on what is generally interesting at the time. Foreign media probably told a lot about that Suomussalmi battle where fast moving light formations of ski infantry overcame greater force because as news it's interesting but left out those long months of more static fighting.

Ville's estimate came close, pop. was in start of the year 1940 3 696 000 and the whole army probably 290 000-300 000 including air forces. In arms is a different thing because the Finns were short of equipment. In 1941 when the Continuation war started I'd imagine armed forces were twice that much.

That scenario sounds very interesting.

Ukas

Originally posted by Ukas



That scenario sounds very interesting.

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Thanks -- I'm already making mental notes on it.

It has been said that, from the broadest-brush-stroke point-of-view, the essential effect of WW2 in European history was that Russia won and Germany lost.

Beginning a scenario where the player is meant to be the Soviets only (human intelligence being required to, e.g., meaningfully expand the Trans-Siberian RR) and starting mid-30s -- Do you feel up to a "Great Purge" and "5 Year Plan" pair of wonders?? (Of course, your fine Work Camp would work well for the first, and I can probably draft the Colossus (!!!) as an example of Soviet-realist sculpture for the latter).

WW2 itself then does not become the point -- Germany and/or Japan-in-China might be defanged early on; for all we know it might become an Ezra Pound-ish "Twilight Of The West" where France, England and Finland fight the USSR over a sundered Germany ... the Cold War gone Hot in 1940.

Best Regards,

Oz

The Buildings-large and building-small icons for this were just perfect for my "War Memorial" improvement. Thanks, you saved me quite a bit of work there!


(Here's the link)

Originally posted by zulu9812
What was the Winter War?

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This is a VERY late reply but if anyone is interested (and I recomend looking into it) I have attached a link to an ok website on the subject. Sadly it is a war that is forgotten here in Canada.
In short:

Stalin needed a buffer zone between him and Germany so he began invading nations (namely Finland) to creat one. Also Stalin was a very bad bad boy who just needed a hug. or a butt kicking. Ah General Patton now there was a man itching to give Stalin the buisness end of a bace ball bat. Umm... Sorry I seem to be lost... o right Finland fought hard so we all should read about this almost forgoten war.

READ ABOUT IT!!!
http://www.winterwar.com/

Originally posted by Hunter


Sadly it is a war that is forgotten here in Canada.

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All of Stalin's pre-Great Patriotic War adventures (excepting taking his slice of Poland) seem forgotten -- of equal note was the campaign fought in Mongolia in 1939 against the Japanese; once side called it the "Nomonhan" affair, the other "Khalkin-Gol" after various geographical features (IIRC the Khlakin-Gol was a river). Soviet vs. Japanese armor ... Guess who won?

-Oz

Zhukov did

For those interested in the Winter War:

Telegrams from each day of the war, site maintained by the Finnish Defence Forces.

http://www.mil.fi/tiedotus/talvisota_eng/


A site with human interest stories:

http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/winter_war/

Originally posted by Ukas
Zhukov did

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YES! -- Give our lucky winner a yurt ! ... Sorry, we're out of yak ...

-O.