Just got my first win on Immortal *Looking for advice*

Well, it took me long enough but I finally won an Immortal level game. Looking back on it I could have done a lot of things better. I was playing Poland, and started on a river with a decent amount of dessert. I mixed tradition and liberty but only founded one city after my cap- I finished the liberty tree early but didn't finish tradition until the late in the game when I was running out of really good policies. That seems like a waste of liberty's bonuses. I did take down Vienna and Salzberg with CBs. After that I played peacefully (although I was attacked twice, both times by Venice, with help from Songhai once) until the late game.
I did a few things wrong- I didn't sell any iron or horses, even though I had a lot of both. Apparently I'm terrible at diplomacy because everyone was angry at me for the whole game. I really don't think it was just the fact that I took two of Austria's cities in the Classical Era- I didn't kill her last city. I didn't attack the Ottomans, who were immediately south of me and had a ton of wonders. My diplo was getting me no where and I could have taken a lot of wonders if I'd hit them hard. I invested two points in Commerce but never followed through, maybe I should have. I invested a lot in tradition early, and although monarchy got me out of happiness trouble feel like I'd have been better off doing something else with those early policies- either commerce or patronage.
I did plenty right though, I snagged the DF pantheon and parlayed it into a religeon with tithe, happy temples and pagodas. Again, pagodas and liberty should have dictated a wider empire then I had, but still, the religeon was nice. I built the pyramids, the Oracle and Petra but didn't fall into my bad habit of building too many wonders. I had my NC up shortly after turn 100. That's slow for a SV but I didn't have my heart set on a victory so I didn't know what VC I wanted when I built it.
Any advice would be welcome... especially as pertains to diplo. or choice of social policies. Also, how do you sell resources for a lump sum? Does it require a declaration of friendship? Thanks in advance.

Yes, you need a DOF for lump-sum transactions (resource sales and loans).

You won, so that means you did more right then wrong

Diplomacy:
AI is designed to go for win. Just like you want to win, so does AI. 'I hate you coz you have better land' is part of that. Better land means better chance to win. Or wonder or the fact you have 2 capitols (yours plus austrian).

They hate you coz your are winning

P.S.:
I would finish Austria. Austria and Venice must die like yesterday. They make a mess with City States.

Mr. Shadows said:

I mixed tradition and liberty but only founded one city after my cap.

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So few cities is weak play, especially with Liberty. Liberty is well suited for a quick domination rush, but yes that is a waste of Liberty's bonuses in particular. Tradition's strongest policy is the finisher, so for strongest play you want to get straight through that tree ASAP.

Apparently I'm terrible at diplomacy because everyone was angry at me for the whole game. I really don't think it was just the fact that I took two of Austria's cities in the Classical Era- I didn't kill her last city.

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Killing cities (and even whole civs) early should be okay. I think you should want to try and figure out what is going wrong with your Diplomacy -- just so you have that in your repertoire. Don't denounce just because your are denounced, make trade deals, and send one trade route to each civ you would like to have as friends.

...I could have taken a lot of wonders if I'd hit them hard.

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Your early domination was strong, and winning by domination is very strong play. So why did you stop with a couple Austrian cities? I am guessing that you thought Dom would be too easy?

I invested two points in Commerce but never followed through, maybe I should have.

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The finisher in each tree is usually the strongest policy available in the tree. So, speaking generally, you want to finish any tree you invest in. Commerce is especially good for Poland because the no-movement-cost-to-pillage is a great buff on an already strong unit -- but that presumes you want to warmonger.

I invested a lot in tradition early, and although monarchy got me out of happiness trouble feel like I'd have been better off doing something else with those early policies- either commerce or patronage.

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You should have finished off Tradition before you even had the option to open Commerce! The policies in Liberty were the ones you wasted.

I had my NC up shortly after turn 100. That's slow for a SV but I didn't have my heart set on a victory so I didn't know what VC I wanted when I built it.

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That is a fine speed for NC no matter what VC. You don't have to pick VC that early anyway.

Congratulations on your first Immortal level win! I will give you some basic feedback which I hope is helpful as you progress to Deity.

I would generally recommend to pick either Tradition or Liberty. Tradition is good for up to 4 cities and Liberty is good if you want to expand to 6+ cities in your game. This is just a rule of thumb, because there are circumstances where it makes sense to open Tradition, finish off another policy tree (either Liberty or Piety in games where I use this hybrid approach), and then return to finish Tradition. Don't take Tradition just for the opener. In the long run this is a waste of a policy because the culture bonus will not pay for itself through the course of the game. Only open Tradition if you plan to finish it by the mid game and probably at least take the bonus to wonder construction if you plan to build any wonders. This can be a strong move if you want to use Legalism (4 free culture buildings) for a later game building like free Opera Houses to get a quick Hermitage or 4 free UB like the Wat (University replacement for Siam). It can also be a strong move if you want to expand early and grow taller later in the game because the growth bonuses from Tradition can be difficult to manage early game happiness at higher levels.

I try to have a game plan early and move towards a victory the entire game. Regardless of victory, I try to get the National College out by about turn 70 on standard speed with up to turn 100 being acceptable if I am playing rapid expansion to 6 or more cities. When building new cities, I generally build a Monument and a Library as my first 2 buildings, but not necessarily in that order (i.e. if I need a Library in one more city of NC, it gets priority).

Once you advance to Deity level, forget about building wonders. If you like wonders (and who doesn't), let the AI build them for you while you build units to take them.

I still find that this strategy guide here in great for those wanting a Trad/Lib mix with Poland. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501378

I also recommend trading any unneeded strat. res. ONE at a time for 2 GPT to AI's that will take them. Once they stop liking you, they may pay only 1 GPT or not buy them at all.

Congratz on your win and I hope to read about more!

I appreciate the feedback guys. Progressing through the other difficulty levels just took minor adjustments for me but this took quite a few tries, and I've made some big changes. Now I'm looking at what went right and what I need to tighten up- I want to be at the Deity level but I'm not ready just yet.
I definitely need to improve my diplomacy. I didn't get one RA and I had a lot of extra resources that no one seemed to want shortly after I met the civs on the other continent. When I met them they were buyers, by the time that agreement ran out only Shaka was still willing to do good business. That represents a lot of lost opportunities since I wasn't warring.
I went Liberty over Trad. because I thought I'd be war-mongering a lot more then I did. I usually prefer to play continents, and I've had several near-misses even though I dominated my continent. I see a lot of reasons for that, but in all cases there were civs on the other continent that were just too far ahead of me. That made me back off after I took Austria. I'd intended to be peaceful until my CBs were XBs but I lost focus on that plan- I suppose there's no wrong way to win but I certainly didn't get as much out of my SPs as I could have. Poland can get away with that though. I know mixing trad and lib is popular with Poland but after trying it a number of times I think I should do skmething different. I don't use Commerce much and I think I should.
Oh, and Neilkaz I should definitely be selling unused iron and horses! That's something I just started doing in the last month or two and I still forget soemtimes... which costs me a pile of gold.
In the late game does anyone know when the AI starts getting nukes? How long does it take after they build the Manhattan Project?

Mr. Shadows said:

In the late game does anyone know when the AI starts getting nukes? How ling does it take after they build the Manhattan Project?

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It depends on the AI. Some build nukes ASAP and others don't even build the Manhattan Project. I would say there is usually a minimum of 15 turns or between an AI finishing Manhattan and getting their first nukes. I don't think I've ever seen AIs with Nuclear Missiles, and I'd rather keep it that way.

GenuineRisk said:

It depends on the AI. Some build nukes ASAP and others don't even build the Manhattan Project. I would say there is usually a minimum of 15 turns or between an AI finishing Manhattan and getting their first nukes. I don't think I've ever seen AIs with Nuclear Missiles, and I'd rather keep it that way.

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Thanks, I had a moment of panic when Venice completed the Manhattan Project. I declared war and took both Venice and Florence from them immediately- thus takjng their uranium. That got me a bunch of wonders including (most importantly) Prora for a ton of happiness, so I kjnd of wished I'd pulled the trigger earlier. Then The Ottomans comoleted it, but as far as I could see they had no uranium. Eating a bunch of nukes was pretty much the only tuing that could have stopped me at that point.

Mr. Shadows said:

I definitely need to improve my diplomacy. I didn't get one RA and I had a lot of extra resources that no one seemed to want shortly after I met the civs on the other continent. When I met them they were buyers, by the time that agreement ran out only Shaka was still willing to do good business. That represents a lot of lost opportunities since I wasn't warring.

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From this description, yes it seems like diplomacy is real weakness for you. It seems to me that just being passive would get you routine lux trades and the occasional DoF and RA. So I am guessing that you are doing something to spoil relations -- but from what you have written, I don’t have a clue as to what that might be.

I certainly didn't get as much out of my SPs as I could have. Poland can get away with that though. I know mixing trad and lib is popular with Poland but after trying it a number of times I think I should do something different. I don't use Commerce much and I think I should.

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Trying to mix Tradition with Liberty works out poorly for most players -- and being Poland does not change that since the extra policies are not early. So the easiest thing to do with Poland, and it is quite strong play, is to pick policies like you normally would -- just getting them quicker. The second easiest thing to do, and is a little more fun and still quite strong, is to pick up a full later tree that you might not normally exploit. So with Poland you can have full Tradition or Liberty, full Rationalism, 6-9 picks in an Ideology, and one full other tree. Yes, Commence works out nicely.

In the late game does anyone know when the AI starts getting nukes? How long does it take after they build the Manhattan Project?

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You will get notification from each AI after they build their first Atomic Bomb. Aside from Gandhi, the AIs generally have less than 50/50 chance of using a nuke first.

Mr. Shadows said:

Eating a bunch of nukes was pretty much the only thing that could have stopped me at that point.

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You would have been okay. Even when the AI has nukes and you do not, there are work-around tactics that are fairly reliable. The AIs are no better with nukes than any other element of battle -- so they drop a bomb on your cap instead of destroying your invasion force. It is annoying more than anything else.

Well, I made deals with everyone as soon as I met the civs on the other continent. When they asked to trade for other resources I always asked for more- which they gave me. I did refuse to join in a couple of wars that were far away because the war would have been impractical. I did declare war on Austria a second time because she sent three GPs that would have converted my cities otherwise. I was slow with my trade routes too. For most of the early game I only had one internal route, and then one going to Jerusalem to fulfill a quest and one going to the Ottomans. Come to think of it the Ottomans were pretty friendly until I noticed that they were buildjng up a lot of tourism. At that point I stopped snedjing trade routes to them and started refusing open borders. I recently lost a near-win because of toruism so I didn't want them taking my dig sites or getting influence bonuses. I only just recently learned to use the tourism scrrens so I'm not sure if that was necessary. Thanks for the advice.

*edit* My next attempt won't be with Poland. I guess it depends on my mood, but maybe the Inca, Babylon or one of the serious war-mongers. I want to be able to win with different civs and VCs, next up will probabaly be Dom. I do love to war-monger.

Mr. Shadows said:

When they asked to trade for other resources I always asked for more- which they gave me.

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Can you give me a couple examples of this? I don't understand what you are saying, but getting all you can out of a trade is fine. Often you can get 1 gpt more than what they initially offer. But please give me a specific example or two.

I did refuse to join in a couple of wars that were far away because the war would have been impractical.

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That should be okay. In general, DoWs create more hate than the mutual war buffs things, but I pretty frequently agree to wars that I don't actively participate in. Never DoW if you have a DoF going.

I did declare war on Austria a second time because she sent three GPs that would have converted my cities otherwise.

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DoW only generate a little hate, less than taking a single city from a wide civ. But was that DoW during a DoF? Because if it was, that kills your diplo with everyone for the rest of the game. The AIs love to DoF and then send in GPr or GG.

I was slow with my trade routes too. For most of the early game I only had one internal route, and then one going to Jerusalem to fulfill a quest and one going to the Ottomans. Come to think of it the Ottomans were pretty friendly until I noticed that they were buildjng up a lot of tourism. At that point I stopped snedjing trade routes to them and started refusing open borders.

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Trade routes are very strong for diplo. I try to do one per civ -- but of course internal are what everyone raves about. I think you are being a little paranoid about tourism pressure, and I keep mutual open borders with everyone I can.

First, congrats and welcome !

Now, from your original posts, it seems you were not focused enough.

Going with a mix of tradition and liberty with Poland is imo an advanced type of play and if you only found 2 cities, it is not a good idea as you dont get any benefit from doing that. Actually, founding just one city after your capital is 90% of the time a bad idea unless you intend to go liberty and conquer more land and cities with a DomV in mind. Or if you go honor with the same purpose.

It's just basic mathematics. Going tradition reinforces your capital and your 3 others first founded cities. Liberty, if you only took the left side (i suppose) allows for faster settler, and a bonus to production for each cities. In your case, liberty granted you : 1 free settler, 2 culture per turn, and 2 hammer per city plus the slight bonus to building construction. It makes it not that interesting.

So, my basic advice would be to work the basic strategies\milestones you'll use for most of your games :

- The first strategy is the classic Tradition, 4 city NC at T90 at most, reaching education at T110 at most.

=> It's basically a scout, monument, shrine, granary, settler, settler, settler strategy. Obviously, this is not set in stone. Grabbing 2 culture ruins can avoid you building the monument and stick with the free one from tradition policies. Not being able to steal 2 or 3 workers from CS or AIs can force you to include a worker in your build order. Disturbing barbs can require a quick archer. You will need to adapt, but those milestones are solid references.

Then it's going as fast as possible for Scientific theory, let's say T170 at most. This basic goals can fit any type of victory. From science, to culture (rush archeology then), to DomV (rush artillery then) in Immortal and even Deity.

Policies wise, you'll fill tradition, maybe spend 1/2 in patronage\aesthetics\commerce\piety depending on what gives the more benefit or opens for later interesting perks. But that is only until you can spam rationalism. Opener, secularism being the top ones, how you fill the rest is very to your liking. But you will want to finish rationalism at some point to buy extra Scientist with faith. Again, that is worth for any type of victory that isnt rushed.

Then there's the classic going for electricity and using the oxford university free tech to grab radio and reach modern era. Allows to grab an ideology quite fast without building 3 factories.

The rest is honestly history most of the time if all goes smoothly till then :
- Rushing Plastics for a Scientific Victoy
- Mondialization just to be safe for a DiploV
- Internet for a cultural one
- Tanks, rocket artillery for a late-ish DomV
etc..

But yeah, the best way to improve is to commit to specific plays. Going right and left only wastes resources. There are millions of advices, pointers to give. But the basic tradition\tech\policie progression i described is a solid way to play. And most of all, it's a way to master some of the biggest key elements of civ V which allows to go for more varied plays once it's carved in your brain. Watching LPs from Acken is imo a huge knowledge booster for any player.

I probably am too worried about the AI's toruism, I recently got burned but I understand the mechanic a lot better now then I did just a month ago. Turning up the difficulty forces you to look at things you could ignore previously- like the function that shows you how fast an enemy civ is gaining influence over you. There's no doubt that I could have made better use of my SPs. It's my lunch break on Friday and I think this weekend I'm going to try a dom victory with either the Zulu or the Mongols. That's probabaly not the best way to hone my diplomacy skills but it will be fun and it will make for a very different game then I just played. I think I'll use Pangaea this time. I'm thinking of opening with Liberty but I'm debating whether I should bother with honor or not.

There's really no point in worrying about tourism on deity or immortal unless you're going for a CV. You're not gonna have enough tourism to really make a big difference, your cities will eventually have suffer huge ideological pressure unhappiness unless you change ideology to culture runaway's. Not selling OB to any AI helps.

I spent a my Sat. afternoon on two games. The first was with The Zulu on continents. I had a three salt and silver in my cap so I figured it was going to be a good one. Then I discoved I was all alone on my continent with just one CS. I chose liberty thinking I was going to start conquering with CBs and keep rolling as I hit Impis and XBs. Ha! Well, after an excruciating but of exploration I found the Inca across a passable strip of water all by themselves with Riga for company. The war took me a lot longer then it should have, and cost me too many troops but I did take Cusco and one of their other cities. I hung in there for a while even after meeting the rest of the civs but finally threw in the towel. I really needed to dramatically change my game plan when I saw how isolated I was. That start was a nightmare for the Zulu.

I then started a game with England, also on continents. I have two whales and a fish in my cap. That was a lot of hammers in workboatsand a lighthouse but London looks good now.I chose Liberty again, and got two expos out early. I hit William hard with CBs with the idea that my promoted CBs would make great longbowmen. I'm just past turn 120 and this game seems to be shaping up for me. NC came late-turn 110. At turn 125 or so I have a solid army, a war chest of 1300+ and plenty of CBs to upgrade with it in another 5 turns when I hit machinery. I have 5 cities and I'm thinking of adding some of Assyria's to that list with my longbowmen. I have DoFs with Germany and Sonhai. We'll see how it plays out. I've done a good job of paying attention to citizen managment and selling my extea horses. I captured some iron from Amsterdam so I'll be ready with some galleases to upgrade to SoLs when I hit Nav. I'm not sure this is a dom victory but that's how I'm playing. I haven't built any of my guilds yet though, and I'm a little worried about that. Right now I'm focused on universities, controling happiness and clobbering Ashurbanipal. Germany is high on my hit list but I'm getting a lot out of the DoF so I'm putting off hitting him.