Immortal Difficulty

Ookamikaze said:

Going to take a break from Immortal difficulty. Sucks the fun right out of the game for me. I take an inch, they take 2 miles. Seriously wanted to rip my hair out every time Wu popped a new wonder that I was after and then she moved a settler on my island and put up a tent next to me. Then I was informed that she was looking to eat my cities. Lol, quit.

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If you'd go for Domination Victory you wouldn't say 'Wu beat me to wonder' or 'put up a tent next to me', but you'll just say 'thank you Wu for another wonder in Beijing' and 'cheap XP for my troops'

You have to be more aggresive. Abuct workers, body block and/or capture settlers. Bribe more. Let them fight instead of wonder-whoreing.

Or just capture some capitols overloaded with wonders. In my last game I had to capture Paris for example. To much turism, to much pressure. My people didn't wanted german beer anymore, they wanted french wine. So I said, OK, lets go for some shoping

Ookamikaze said:

Pangea with Korea on small was a mistake, lol. Got destroyed by Shaka.

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That actually sounds like a good set-up to practice your defensive warfare. An early rush by an AI is pretty common, so you want to be able to stand up to that. The Korean UUs are both very strong on defense.

Ookamikaze said:

Can't seem to win. Third try and I just feel that the computer is too fast.

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Don't give up. Are you losing cities early or is an AI beating you to SV or CV?

I'm always behind on score too, like 500 points.

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Um, that is nothing. End game, when I win, I am usually 1000+ points behind, maybe half of the leader. The scoreboard is only useful for tracking the relative progress of the AIs.

It's ridiculous how frustrating this difficulty has been. Just seems like Domination may be the only way to win, which is lame.

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Soon, you will find the games very engaging. Peaceful victories are quite possible, even reliable after you get practiced. It is just a matter of figuring out where you are getting stuck.

I would recommend reading many of the articles in the Civ5 - War Academy, lots of good information there. Winning all the time really can't be that fun and going Immortal really increased my enjoyment of the game. There are so many things to master and understand and so many decisions to make in the game it's always interesting to me to play, and even the end game is generally interesting and sometimes challenging as the AIs rarely let up in Immortal.

I find the toughest part of the game is getting your cities setup before the AI takes your land. I think my current game is maybe the first game I got through that phase without 'cheating' with a reload. Rather than rage quit I have always reloaded to see if I can find a way to beat the AI to my favorite spots. On the other hand a bad starting map is a bad starting map so regenerate.

Scout, Scout, Shrine has served me quite well. Getting as many ruins as possible is a huge boost and getting a religion is also a huge help to your civ. Keeping an eye on the AIs with those scouts and maybe stealing a worker or two is great.

Yeah, I've been use to normal mode for a while now. Makes me more prone to feel overwhelmed. I had a settler going to that spot where I found Wu, then realized I should have built a settler earlier. Was going to be my 4th and final city too. I was pumping out serious coin too, my tech was starting match Wu's (using Korea). Haven't thought of double scout then a shrine. Maybe religion is just that important afterall. I did one scout and a then to monument. I know Tradition you should start off on, but what after that? I completed Tradition then went whole right hand side of Military, then just started on Commerce. I wanted to get to Rationalism as quickly as possible. If I do go religious I guess the better choice would have been Piety, but I was last in line in the religion grab.
Thanks guys for restoring some of my sanity. I'm a softy at this difficulty, lol.

And I've always made if my mission to steal workers, I never miss out on that opportunity. Makes me giggle.

I had a settler going to that spot where I found Wu, then realized I should have built a settler earlier. Was going to be my 4th and final city too.

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Yes, claiming your expo spots sooner becomes more of a priority as you move up difficulties.

I was pumping out serious coin too, my tech was starting match Wu's (using Korea).

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Both of those are terrific! Especially the tech rate, even with Korea, since your UA buffs come latter.

I did one scout and a then to monument.

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That is very popular. In my experience, a second scout gets better results than the quicker monument. Plus, you know, gives you twice as much to do during those early turns!

Ookamikaze said:

I completed Tradition then went whole right hand side of Military, then just started on Commerce. I wanted to get to Rationalism as quickly as possible. If I do go religious I guess the better choice would have been Piety, but I was last in line in the religion grab.

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Wow, sounds like you are really tearing through the social policies. I usually only have a couple picks before unlocking Rationalism. Piety is not great even with a religion, but I will often open it for the half cost temples. Strongest play I would say is one in Patronage for Consulates to bump the resting point with CS. Last in line for the religion grab is fine -- it still unlocks the CS quests which is one of the best things IMHO about founding.

The general consensus is that Tradition is stronger than the other early options, and that Rationalism is stronger than the other mid-game options. There is a great deal of flexibility with everything else.

beetle said:

Piety is not great even with a religion, but I will often open it for the half cost temples.

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Seems like a poor investment. I can't even remember the last time I built a temple.

Piety is great if you want to play for an early Cultural VC. Sacred Sites the the best route to a Renaissance Era (or earlier on a single land mass continent) Cultural VC.

Piety can also be useful for other types of games because purchasing great people with faith can make a big impact. More faith = more great people. With Tradition you can use faith to buy GE to rush key wonders (especially good on higher difficulties). With Rationalism you can use faith to purchase GS which can make the end game much faster for Diplomatic VC or Scientific VC. To the Glory of God reformation belief will allow you to purchase any great people with faith. Jesuit Education can make research a lot quicker as you buy research buildings with faith.

I'm not saying that Piety is the best policy group out there, only that it can be very strong when used properly.

Mesix said:

...
I'm not saying that Piety is the best policy group out there, only that it can be very strong when used properly.

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Very risky. Not only you have to found religion to proc Reformation, you have to be one of the first to get the good stuff.

Not saying its impossible, just risky.

Chum said:

Seems like a poor investment. I can't even remember the last time I built a temple.

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You and I must play very differently. If you found, you want the Grande Temple as that about doubles your fpt.

EDIT: Also remember this is in the context of a “throw-away” spare policy waiting for Rationalism to unlock. So if I am fairly confident that means one-and-only-one spare pick, I think opening Piety saves a good number of hammers. If I think there will be two picks, then its probably Patronage (for Consulates) or Aesthetics (the half price culture buildings). If I think there will be more than two, then Exploration or Commerce.

Grand temple is really useful. I would recommend for anyone that has a religion or needs faith.

Ookamikaze said:

Yeah, I've been use to normal mode for a while now. Makes me more prone to feel overwhelmed. I had a settler going to that spot where I found Wu, then realized I should have built a settler earlier. Was going to be my 4th and final city too. I was pumping out serious coin too, my tech was starting match Wu's (using Korea). Haven't thought of double scout then a shrine. Maybe religion is just that important afterall. I did one scout and a then to monument. I know Tradition you should start off on, but what after that? I completed Tradition then went whole right hand side of Military, then just started on Commerce. I wanted to get to Rationalism as quickly as possible. If I do go religious I guess the better choice would have been Piety, but I was last in line in the religion grab.
Thanks guys for restoring some of my sanity. I'm a softy at this difficulty, lol.

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I always finish tradition and then take the piety opener. That lets me put up a cheap shrine or three in my secondary cities. Doubling the faith output is also helpful to insure your chance at a religion. The third and generally final policy that gives 25% gold for temples is a no brainer. You will need the gold to support the military you should have to keep the AIs from drooling over you. I also am well roaded and that costs too. If you happen to get a nice faith pantheon you can delay shrines and temples, or if you get a culture pantheon you will have faith policies sooner to build cheap shrines.

The first part of the game is going to be a fight with the nearby AI(s) in most cases. You have to push them around or they will take your land. My fourth build is often an archer or three with a worker squeezed in when possible and of course a settler, but I like to get as big as possible before stopping growth to put out a settler. Victory condition is NOT on my radar any time soon, getting my 'empire' claimed is THE priority.

I would say do not be afraid to reload. Sure it's cheating to have knowledge of the map and what the AI is likely to do, but replaying and changing your tactics will let you learn rather than getting frustrated. Like I said only my current game did I not have any cheating with all others having some degree of do over. I also did not get a 'perfect' start and I have been coming from behind all game.

Piety suffers from a few misdesigns. First it has some bonuses designed to help the early game like the opener but the problem is that religion itself is a mid game boost so it makes Piety really hard to open with. It gives you nothing essential early. No culture, no free stuff etc.

So you'll preffer another tree helping your early game. And then you unlock other trees that most of the time are more relevant than Piety :/

Wasn't Piety a classical age tree in G&K? That would have worked better but making that Piety bans Rationalism, while kind of intuitive and historically correct ( ), caused everyone to ignore it entirely because Rationalism was by far the strongest anyway even then and finisher used to get 2 free techs

Yes that's how it used to be. They never managed to make this tree right. Mostly because I think Firaxis has always overrated religion.

I think Piety is also weak because of the Reformation beliefs. They are not that strong, maybe adding more reformation beliefs, and/or making them not exclusive for a religion will buff Piety. Also if finishing Piety can guarantee you a religion (even if the number of religions is maxed out, so making a special Great Prophet for the finisher, that can found regardless of the number of religions in the game) would make Piety stronger.

I think the first three policies of Piety (left side) are quite worth the invested culture. The first two help you get a religion as well as doubling your faith all game which will eventually be used for GSs or GEs. Depending on what follower beliefs you end up with cheaper temples can potentially add two culture or two happiness. The third policy adds 25% gold to temples as well so I think those temples get pretty strong for that reduced hammer cost.

I agree the reformations are not worth it for the most part unless your going CV and can have your choice. Spending on three weak policies to finish is also not worth it.

claudiupb said:

I think Piety is also weak because of the Reformation beliefs. They are not that strong, maybe adding more reformation beliefs, and/or making them not exclusive for a religion will buff Piety. Also if finishing Piety can guarantee you a religion (even if the number of religions is maxed out, so making a special Great Prophet for the finisher, that can found regardless of the number of religions in the game) would make Piety stronger.

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wayneb64 said:

I think the first three policies of Piety (left side) are quite worth the invested culture. The first two help you get a religion as well as doubling your faith all game which will eventually be used for GSs or GEs. Depending on what follower beliefs you end up with cheaper temples can potentially add two culture or two happiness. The third policy adds 25% gold to temples as well so I think those temples get pretty strong for that reduced hammer cost.

I agree the reformations are not worth it for the most part unless your going CV and can have your choice. Spending on three weak policies to finish is also not worth it.

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I think both of you kind of missed Acken's point. Piety is not weak because it's weak per se compared to other trees, but because religion itself is rather overrated as a concept and so either of the possibilities

1. you have your own religion
2. you have adopted someone else's
3. you don't have a religion at all

don't really cause any major game changers. It doesn't directly and/or largely influence any of the game's more major concept, causing people to either not bother with it or have limited investment.

The Sacred Sites CV strategy is very much an unconventional gimmick that doesn't even work that well in all cases and it breaks immersion completely.

Come to think of it:

food - essential
production - essential
science - essential
culture - essential
gold - duh
tourism - essential for CV, useful otherwise
faith - useful for buying great people towards the end, completely not essential for any victory type

And you certainly don't need Piety to get faith or a religion and on top of that you don't even need a religion to get religious beliefs ! That is where Piety weakness lies. It's weak to open with and when you consider getting it after your first tree the religion game is already set ! I'll admit it can be okay to dip 1 or 2 policies in it but that speaks volumes about the quality of the tree as a whole.

For example, yes piety gives more faith. It doesn't double it though, it simply gives 2 faith per cities. While not being bad, for a small empire this is as much as allying a single Religious CS. Which is why Piety works better for wide empires and Liberty for example. The gold is not bad too but why invest into that when you could go straight for commerce mercantilism or patronage for better gifts ? Both make gold more efficient which is approximately the same as boosting gold output and don't require to have temples at -2gpt maintenance.

Truly it's not that Piety is pure crap, I've made it work in my celt let's play with a 3Liberty 4Piety opener. It's just that well it isn't an exciting tree. Secondary to way better openers it then suffers from other secondary trees.

With these in mind and to make more obnoxious advertising for my mod this is why I'm currently buffing Piety with these in mind. Giving it happiness and culture and an overall more competitive start. Then the purpose is to make religion really worth it for a piety player, giving it an edge, rewarding widely spread religion and prophet generation.

So this comes down to: improving religion to make it more significant for the gameplay and/or adding more powerful policies for Piety.
I have some suggestions:

1) Opener gives 50 faith and removes the random component for generating Great Prophets before Industrial Era. Mandate of Heaven gets the current opener bonus (50% production bonus for Shrines & Temples) on top of the 20% discount for faith buying.

2) Instead of current Religious Tolerance, get to pick a second Pantheon that other civs following your religion are not able to use. You can also pick Pantheons that are currently taken.

3) Increase the bonuses for Founder beliefs so they actually give significant bonuses (making the religion "owner" stronger than the "followers").

4) Buff reformation beliefs, and maybe not make them exclusive for a religion so you can take the reformation you currently want even if someone already took it.

5) Add a mechanism that converts faith to happiness so you get religious bonuses all game long. Maybe even add a reformation belief like Fundamentalism: remove all unhappiness caused by ideological pressure, but get a science penalty equal to x% * the unhappiness that is normally caused by ideological pressure.

Some of these changes are clearly quite big for a balancing mod, but maybe there are some good ideas in here