Espionage discussion

An AI that does more than steal tech and poison wells. If you're playing MP, and someone nicks your gold, you know it wasn't the AI.

I use K-mod and the AI nicks my gold frequently. They seem to destroy my factory routinely.

In-game explanations that clearly distinguish between Spy units and Spy specialists. Every time I come back to BTS I need to read up to remind myself how to slow down Sitting Bull's cloud of poisonous death.

I don't like the Espionate point system either, it has always felt contrived and frankly a bit of a lazy solution just having a linear meter.

It would make more sense to increase incentives to spend production points towards espionage buildings or spies. That itself is a cost, it doesn't require a separate meter. I'm not a big fan of pointless derivatives (like espionge = gold essentially), why not just use gold?

Also the spectrum of what spies can do feels a bit too big. I'd rather the options what to do with spies be more limited, but crucial, so using them feels more strategic and less like, well, just sending a unit back and forth doing irritating shenanigans.
The city revolt thing for example is cool, because it's a legit alternative to siege.

vincentz said:

How would your ideal Espionage look like?

Click to expand...

• No spy specialists or espionage points
• Spy units cost gold per turn per culture on the tile it's on - the more of its own culture, the less gold it costs
• Spies can forego movement on a turn to attempt a mission, each of which has a probability of success
• Tile missions (high to low prob): Destroy Improvement, Assassinate Unit
• City missions (high to low prob): Investigate City, Poison Water Supply, Incite Riot, Sabotage Production, Destroy Building
• Capital missions (high to low prob): See Demographics, See Research, Steal Gold, Influence Civics, Steal Technology
• Successful missions grant experience; especially unsuccessful missions destroy the spy, and cause negative diplomatic relations
• Promotions grant improved mission success rates
• Palaces, Courthouses, Security Bureaus; - decreases missions' probability of success in fat cross
• Jails, Castles; Nationhood - increases enemy spy costs in fat cross
• Scotland Yard - prevents any spying in city
• Intelligence Agency - spies start with XP

I'd prefer a greater emphasis on passive effects and the ability to direct points to certain areas so as to focus points for passive effects in certain areas.

Some ideas (not fully thought through):

* Spy point generation tilted more towards buildings/specialists than commerce
* AI does not reassign specialists for you! Ever.
* No banking spy points against a whole civ for 3000 years that can be used anywhere. Spy points attach to a location/city instead
* Spy points are distributed to spy units every turn. (not exactly sure how to manage this)
* Fortified units deposit points in their immediate location which accumulate for passive effects and decay once spy leaves area
* Non fortified spies spend points on counter espionage at their location
* A spy starts a mission when ordered to do so and the mission is completed once that spy has accumulated required points.
* Accumulated passive points reduce required mission points or maybe just reduces detection chance
* Only counter espionage causes mission failures
* Detected spies can be executed (diplo penalty) or returned (diplo boost)
* Successful missions leave spy in place
* Some form of XP system for spies. Spy points could perhaps be converted to XP as an option