[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies

Anti Missile Rockets & Lasers prewarp:
See other thread.

Cyber-security link:
I've been noticing how you've changed the spy techs away from the bland +10 into varying levels and bonuses. Great changes, love it. I do worry that Cyber-security link at +20 might be a bit hefty a bonus, I will still be thrilled with it at +15. Or what about having a greater defense bonus from it seeing as security is defensive in nature. +10/+15 or +15/+20 perhaps. Just a thought. I won't complain either way, I'm just robbing the computer blind after getting CSL.
Yeah good point here. Spying is difficult to balance because the a.i. is not really good at it. Although I like your suggestion about the offensive and defensive bonus, I don't know how to mod that atm.

Food Replicators:
I saw the maintenance was reduced to 3 in this mod, great. It was only today I noticed it now requires a bc on top of the 2 production to power the replicator...
10bc maintenance was outrageously high for this poor value tech.
The 1 bc per food that you mention already existed in classic. This 1 BC was just not decribed in the text.
For ICE mod I have simply corrected this textual mistake. If I knew how to remove the 1 BC from the Replicator tech, I would do that right away.
 
- perhaps outposts shouldn't produce a barracks upon colonization of an outpost
- Remove outpost deploying ability totally
- a built in 2 range scanner in exchange.
- remove the outpost ship and just put a ship in its place that has fuel tanks
- Remove fuel tanks on both colony AND outpost ships. (Interesting)
- Remove outpost ship deployability on nonplanets (that might be tricky codewise).
interesting ideas but all of them are very difficult to mod.

300/750 outpost/colony perhaps.
Need to think around balancing these two for ICECOLD a bit more.

Haha I knew I was forgetting something, scrapping a star base for 200bc so you can build something a couple turns faster, madness!
What can I say, this is what players do to gain a few turns in eco devlopment...
 
My opinions here may differ from some others, but please note that I've played many hundreds of games of MOO2 Impossible.

I don't use food replicators as I still think that they are too expensive and my econ will be set up to farm and transport food as needed anyhow. Unless I have a food shortage, food replicators get sold when I conquer a planet with them.

Stealing techs by spying is one of the many fun things to do in this game. Cyber Security Link is a 6000 RP tech and you forgo Galactic Cyber Net or a great computer (if needed)if you research it. I'd certainly leave it at +20 spying. This can be needed for defensive purposes especially if there's a Darlok in the game or the Creative Psilon is spreading techs to almost every AI. In ICEx I sometimes note that a couple of AI's have 40 spies on me!

OK I'd rather go low gravity than - pop as well, but that is my style.

Re: selling the SB to hasten colony building and to get lab and factory on them quickly. This is a pretty standard tactic when playing a power production race if you think your start is reasonably isolated. However, you may end up attacked sometimes and then you have to fight with FF and DD until you can rebuild the SB. Believe it or not, I was once attacked by a Coid BB (yes BB) on T49pw (yes PreWarp!) playing vanilla 1.40.
I just managed to destroy it. Had I managed to muster even one fewer FF it would likely have been a quick loss as that BB would have survived.

OK, I have tested selling the SB when using a power production race and then rebuilding it later (usually once I get some pollution control(s)) and it does speed up things by a couple of turns. If I spawn near galaxy center I usually won't do it unless I have a really good home system and am willing to gamble to build it up quicker.

I hate to see colony ships changed from 500 pp. I also think outposts are fine at 200 pp.

Forgive me, but I don't play anything but tactical combat. I am aware that the human can really abuse the AI's this way, but it is most fun for me to play this way like most players that I know play. Therefore all I will say is to please be careful that what you do to make the game better for strategic doesn't have negative repercussions for tactical.

I haven't tried IceCold yet and have an X game going where I am just about to have major issues as Psilons really have teched and developed quickly. Cold might be a little slow for me, but note that I start PW anyhow. I presume it has Ice AI races rather than IceX?

A question concerning AI advantages for Impossible. I have the old Prima strat guide for MOO1 and if I read correctly I think the AI's get a 50% advantage in everything vs "normal". Is this the same in MOO2? Can you tell from the code?
 
I hate to see colony ships changed from 500 pp. I also think outposts are fine at 200 pp.
I will not change these costs in icemod and icex.
It's something to consider for the new icecold, which is all about isolation and bridging long distances.

Therefore all I will say is to please be careful that what you do to make the game better for strategic doesn't have negative repercussions for tactical.
Tactical has prio over strategic.
But as I have just been discovering strategic over the last days, there might be some things that can be improved without influencing tactical at all.
For starters, unused techs will be removed from the strategical tech tree in the next ICE version.

Cold might be a little slow for me, but note that I start PW anyhow. I presume it has Ice AI races rather than IceX?
Yes, Cold has the regular icemod races and not icex.
In this way, it should be playable for most players.
I might change it though at some point, for example by putting ICEx races in Impossible and Impossible races from regular ice in the Hard setting.

concerning AI advantages for Impossible. I have the old Prima strat guide for MOO1 and if I read correctly I think the AI's get a 50% advantage in everything vs "normal". Is this the same in MOO2? Can you tell from the code?
I have not yet found this in the code, but from what i can tell the A.I. does get a 50% bonus for Tax, Food, Prod, and Research on Impossible.
On Hard setting it seems to be +1/3. Or it might be +30% I am not sure.
Apart from their 'Great Omniscience bonus'* I do not think there are more cheats apart from the 25% ship space bonus for Titans and Doom Stars that was introduced with ICE.

* Great Omniscience meaning it includes that a.i. can react to your fleet movements on the turn itself, instead of only the next turn as is the case for human players.
 
We're back!

Did some more checks on these a.i. race boni and it seems that I was incorrect in previous post.

bonuses are:
Hard level: Food +1/2 per farmer, Prod. +1 per worker, Res. +1 per scientist, Tax +1/2 BC per population.
Impossible doubles these figures to +1,+2,+2,+1

These bonuses seem to be applied after all other calculations have been made, with the exception of money.
The a.i. Tax bonus is influenced by Democracy.
 
I've played several games and a crazy game I should have lost. I kept a couple saves and I'll upload the early one and challenge anyone to beat this game, load as much as you like and I'll still be surprised if anyone can crack it.

I have a few more critiques and observations. But let me reply to some of these posts first.

But this reasoning is weird. I don't think classic Warlord was overpowered at 8 picks.

I assumed since the command point ability was tweeked, you must have felt it was too strong in some way. To be honest, I personally can't even justify it's use any longer over economy picks. It's been watered down by the two factors I've mentioned before. Reduced command and +25 starting offense for all. I don't use the ship offense picks as it is, even though you've made them more tempting by cheapening them. That's why I suggested cheapening them but you might be right in that they may be close to a tipping point which would make them too cheap once crossed but considering you start out with 50 offense, I value offense even less than before. Seeing as warlords key features are ships values now, it's also devalued in the same manner. I lose battles I would normally win all the time now and it's why I stopped using it. I can no longer use the entertaining tactic of "more ships, less tech, better crews".

Yes, I have increased the Electronic Computer from +25 to +50, as an extra defense for a.i. against early human missile boats.

I played a strategic game and all my ships hit everything with every cannon from clear across the screen every battle. Why would I pick more offense? All I needed was the base computer and a battle scanner clear until the end of the game or I steal a better attack computer. Pleasure dome is way better when I already have +100 attack. If I went holos I will get the positronic computers. Unification makes this a no brainer though. With uni I will have attack coming out the wazoo. I know positronics was pushed up the tree but I cant under emphasize starting with 25 free attack for everyone on the board and how it affects early to mid game. I feel like everybody hits everything now.

The beginning sets the tone for the rest of the game and why unitol +1p was so powerful even though on paper it's not all that powerful late game. Sub with moral bonuses and will yield much higher proportions late game. So.. if missile abuse was the inspiration here, why not just weaken missiles? Make em heavier. Easy fix.

The Classic Optronic computer was a no go really for humans coz Research Labs was pretty much a mandatory pick. A.I. would research it, missing out on R. Labs as they have no clue how to prioritize research.

When someone, including myself neglected attack computers in the past, it was a problem. You missed! If my enemy went a powerful attack computer, I knew they would be a problem in combat but they would have a weaker research economy. I think your tech tree is improved and the best I've seen of any mod but I worry about "singletons". The argument here is that you'll pick the better one anyways and the computer might miss the good one out of stupidity. The thing is research techs did have powerful techs in competition with them. You were giving something up to do this. Now you're giving up less or nothing at all. This serves to make valuable techs available to all without as much penalty. There might be a better way. It seems to me that the most powerful techs to rush for to build your empires are these 4 techs. Aside from moral techs, automated factories, research labs, robo miners, and supercomputers. Here's a thought. Place automated with research labs and robo miners with supercomputers. Now that's a "very difficult choice" and depending on your race and available richness of planets, your decision will differ from game to game. Another minor problem with singletons is weakening the power of creative, which isn't all the great anyways when you can trade and steal your way to glory.

Note also that Warlord is an ability that increases in value as turns progress. The more you expand, the larger the fleet delta can be and the +15 advantage grows to +20 at Veteran (Elite) and +25 at Elite (Ultra-Elite) levels.
Hey, who do you think you're talking to here? Ofcourse I know and loved it! I also noted you made elite and ultra elite easier to reach. I like it. Ultra elite was insanely hard to reach unless you had 5 planets with space academies in one system with a specialized instructor haha. And yes I like the change to militia, should invading an entire planet be so easy?

You probably mean classic Alkari here, because ICE Alkari are a quite good race imho.

Yes and I'd say the real demons are the Meklar now. I go to red alert every time I encounter them.

Anti Missile Rockets & Lasers prewarp:
See other thread.

Which thread am I looking for? I did see you were going to remove techs unused in strategic. *Edit* Ah I see it now. I'm touched, you opened a strategic warfare thread.

For ICE mod I have simply corrected this textual mistake. If I knew how to remove the 1 BC from the Replicator tech, I would do that right away.

You know what might be good enough? Just remove the 3 maintenance. Right now there are times when autobuild throws it up on planets where I don't even use it. It also makes logical sense to only pay when it operates.

What can I say, this is what players do to gain a few turns in eco devlopment...

I kid somewhat, I have scrapped it but only in emergency situations to speed build defenses on a planet with an incoming enemy fleet. The way I play might have something to do with it, when you declare war on everyone you meet, you may need a cruiser asap and there is no guarantee I will find a rich planet that will make a better shipyard than my home planet. I experimented with it under my harsh game rules and it was a mistake. If you use diplomacy and do not foresee war, I could see scrapping the shipyard like I would scrap the marine barracks most of the time to save on maintenance and make a few quick bucks.

Tactical has prio over strategic.

Gasp! Ofcourse I realize most play strategic and it's fun but how do you guys find the time? It took me a week of casual playing to finish one game on strategic. I can finish 10-20 tactical games in that time. As long as strategic gets some care, I'm happy. VLC cares so little about strategic that it doesn't even work.

Just incase it isn't apparent, I think your mod is great. I know all these criticisms may seem aggressive but It's my hope these observations and arguments might be useful.

Attached are two saved games, one game is a challenge and for fun. The second is just before encounter with the massive Meklar fleet and when the game finally turned around. Also, there is an odd bug in the second game. I don't know if it's Icemod related but I've never seen it before. My homeworld began reproducing rebel population and even stranger they would never assimilate. They even tried to rebel and take the planet once, I wonder who they would rebel to if they won. They only appeared if I shifted out population. Newly reproduced population would become rebels. Maybe they were rebelling because of my warcrimes.
 

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Outpost Ships:
Another solution to the outpost situation might be to eliminate asteroid belts and gas giants from galaxy generation. You could only set up on a planet that the computer could use as well via colony ship. Also, the computer doesn't know how to use planetary construction so it would also serve to take away a "humans only advantage". I will say there is an exploit I noticed with thorium cells in Icecold...

Thorium Cells (Icecold) and Stellar Converters:
I noticed an exploit that has the computer scratching its head. The game I uploaded I should have lost but because I was able to annihilate all planets in enemy range, they were unable to reach me, ever. Infact even if I annihilated every planet in thorium range, I could have used outposts to assail the Meklar and they couldn't do a damn thing about it. Perhaps Stellar Converters shouldn't annihilate planets in Icecold to avoid this exploit. I self imposed an attack route to give them a chance but this brings me to another observation...

Computer doesn't attack itself like it would me:
I left one enemy colony at the max range to allow my beachhead into their territory and give the Meklar a change to reach me but even this was exploitive as the computer seems to not want to attack itself. The Meklar were the threat but I left the nearly shattered Sakkra in range. The Meklar could have taken that Sakkra colony in a single turn and become a serious threat to me, but never did. If that was me, the Meklar would have immediately declared war and wiped me out. The computer has too much of a proclivity against attacking itself which actually can make it less challenging in other ways as well. By the time I get to some empires, I see they have a weak neighbor they could have absorbed and become stronger but because they didnt, I was able to conquer both of them.

Planet Construction:
Another "Humans only advantage". The computer will never use this tech for some reason. Perhaps it should be removed in fairness. I self impose its non use anyways.

Subterranean Farms:
I noticed this has been changed a little. Much easier to reach but slightly weaker. Still, it now seems so easy to manage an empire food wise that nomatter which race a play, I have no problems feeding my people. I used to be forced to work towards terraforming once my empire grew too large but now I hardly worry about it at all. With 2 food producing structures available in researchable succession, I have to wonder if this is available too soon even in it's weaker incarnation. Maybe swap it with soil enrichment? Soil enrichment usually only freed up a 2-3 guys by the time I got it(vanilla). Sub farms along with hydros makes me feel lithovorish early on.
 
Just browsing a bit :)

If I went holos I will get the positronic computers. Unification makes this a no brainer though.
Good point about Uni. As Holo's are out, the choice between Dauntless and Battle Scanner is a no brainer. Might need an adjustment.

I also noted you made elite and ultra elite easier to reach.
I will add the Experience Points to the Warlord info in Custom Race Design.

scrapping the shipyard
I am planning to put the Star Base back into the start of ICE-COLD as I have looked more carefully at a.i. development and the absence of Star Base slows them down so much that it outweighs the benefit of the human player not gaining his 250 BC for scrapping the Star Base. Also starting pop. will go back to 8. And I will make ICE-COLD focus more on the map generation.
Another solution to the outpost situation might be to eliminate asteroid belts and gas giants from galaxy generation.
Not sure that I will eliminate them completely as I think it does add some flavour to the game, but in any case I will strongly reduce the number of gas giants and asteroids in the map generation of COLD.

As long as strategic gets some care, I'm happy. VLC cares so little about strategic that it doesn't even work.
It is getting some care as we speak :) Will remove the unused techs from the tree and will add a page to my icemod.xls dedicated to this game mode.

The Thorium Cells issue: good observation and thorium cells will be put back to 'unlimited range'. For Single Player it is not proving to be a great mechanic. In multiplayer it could be cool playing this type of map.

ps. haven't gotten around to look at your savegames yet..
 
I have a pie in the sky idea. When I've got several enemies trying to spy on me, it can be quite the annoying hassle to report them every turn to make sure they haven't suddenly started spying on me and sneak a tech away. Sure there's always autoload but I had an idea that the game creators could have and should have done. In the main galactic screen, around where you might see "Hyperflux" text when there is one, numbers of enemy spys should be displayed in the color of the flag of the empire spying on you. So lets say the Sakkra are red and they send 10 spys at you, a red "10" should appear in the top right of the screen. Simple and useful. I'm sure this would be prohibitively difficult to code.
 
I have a pie in the sky idea. When I've got several enemies trying to spy on me, it can be quite the annoying hassle to report them every turn to make sure they haven't suddenly started spying on me and sneak a tech away. Sure there's always autoload but I had an idea that the game creators could have and should have done. In the main galactic screen, around where you might see "Hyperflux" text when there is one, numbers of enemy spys should be displayed in the color of the flag of the empire spying on you. So lets say the Sakkra are red and they send 10 spys at you, a red "10" should appear in the top right of the screen. Simple and useful. I'm sure this would be prohibitively difficult to code.

It may be useful, but not that simple to do. I don't even think, that there is a modder ho could do it...
 
Another idea: I think almost no one uses poor homeworld. At least they don't if they're trying to design a strong race haha. What if, you replace it with Gaia world instead? So, you'd have augmentation of your homeworlds mineral richness, research prowess, size, and finally food production. Seems clean. It's not like they have a negative for "Small homeworld" or "Arid Homeworld".
 
Yet another small idea. I can't stand how newly produced colonist always go to farming! If it's an industrial colony that colonist should go to industry and if its a research colony that new citizen should go to research. If you can fix that, I would be impressed. However, I get the feeling it might be one of those "hard to code" problems.
 
I think almost no one uses poor homeworld.
They added this one in very late stage dev. of the game: for version 1.1 (Poor HW is not mentioned in printed manual). Always wondered why they have added this one.
Gaia could be cool, but atm I have no clue how to code that. Maybe next year...

I can't stand how newly produced colonist always go to farming!
Improving this functionality would require new code. Definitely not for next year :)
 
Here's a crazy impossible to code idea. When you overproduce something, you get to keep the excess production to carry over to the next project. Excess research however, is lost. Is there a way to have excess research carry over to the next project? Otherwise you're tempted to micro-manage your researchers to production to not waste their efforts.
 
Rocco, did you change the computers propensity to work together or their diplomatic behaviors in any way? Since I've started playing this mod I've lost a few good game just to elections. Probably just a coincidence. I really can't stand that ridiculous election. It's such an anticlimactic autowin or autoloss.

Also, is there a way to turn off elections?

I just checked my last game, every last player in the galaxy voted for the damn Meklars, my nemesis! Not even one of those players were allies with them. Just ruins a game. I'm not sure what they were thinking when the game designers added this dynamic. What if the UN worked like that? Every now and then we vote to see which country would rule the world! All other countries must surrender or go to war.
 
Rocco, did you change the computers propensity to work together or their diplomatic behaviors in any way?
Not yet :lol:

Since I've started playing this mod I've lost a few good game just to elections.
It might be due to your self-imposed rule of declaring war on everybody.

It's such an anticlimactic autowin or autoloss.
Well, here is where diplomacy comes in. I actually think diplomacy works slightly better in ICE due to the opponent races being stronger than in classic MOO2. Talk to them and make some friends.
On the other hand you can just make sure you are the dominant player on the galaxy map :)

Once elections start, they are held every 25 turns. There is no way to turn it off.
The election provides a winning player with an elegant way out of the game, which is better than hunting down every last planet. That can be a tedious endgame in a huge galaxy.
 
Excess research however, is lost. Is there a way to have excess research carry over to the next project? Otherwise you're tempted to micro-manage your researchers to production to not waste their efforts.
Excess research is less common than excess production due to different mechanics in the game.

With buildings and ships etc, the production points are fixed. As an example: the Marine Barracks cost 40 production points to build. Your worker generates 3 production per turn. It will take him 14 turns to finish the project but in the last turn only 1 production was needed. 2 are carried over. If carry over rule did not exist, the 2 would be lost. And that would be the case for every planet that you own, which makes this loss grow larger as your empire grows. Research on the other hand is not planet dependent but a empire wide event, so a potential inefficiency happens only once in your empire instead of on every planet. Also, research has no fixed cost. Example: Research Lab costs minimum 150 RP. This means that 1 researcher needs 50 turns to get that minimum level, after which you have a growing chance each turn that you will have a breakthrough. Thus you need to keep investing research into the project and you never know exactly when you will get the tech. The maximum research investment is 200%, so once you have put 300 RP into the Labs, you will be 100% guaranteed to get it.

The only way you can lose research points is when you follow a strategy with an imbalanced research path. For example your empire has grown large and you produce 1000 RP per turn but you have not reseacrhed anything from the biology branch. In that case Biospheres will not cost you 80 RP but 1000 RP.
 
Once elections start, they are held every 25 turns.
Maybe you are able to change that to... every 1000 turns? That would be a solution for Dukinson.
I don't feel the need of such a change, just wonder if it is possible at all?
 
Yeah that is possible, if the location of the offset would be known.

Agree with you, and I dont feel the need for a change here too.
 
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