Most OP civilzation?

Greece is far from OP. Do the math in your gold savings from the UA. For a peaceful game, it does not match Portugal or Russia's gold bonus. It certainly doesn't touch Morocco or Arabia's gold bonus. And all those civs do other stuff too.

Greece has a good AI. Greece's UA feels powerful. Many other civs can translate their gold bonus into better CS effect than Greece.

Jayhawks said:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Alexander and Greece.

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I did kind of said that Alexander and Greece was a bit op.

adwcta said:

Greece is far from OP. Do the math in your gold savings from the UA. For a peaceful game, it does not match Portugal or Russia's gold bonus. It certainly doesn't touch Morocco or Arabia's gold bonus. And all those civs do other stuff too.

Greece has a good AI. Greece's UA feels powerful. Many other civs can translate their gold bonus into better CS effect than Greece.

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Wouldn't purchasing naus be useless. Having a early nau and plundering oversea traders could give more gold.

Greece is good, but hardly OP IMO. It's not like it's terribly difficult to keep city states allied playing as normal civs. I would rather have extra gold that can be spent on anything (like Venice or Arabia) rather than just an advantage in city state gifts. And with the warmonger penlaty changes, early UUs have lost a lot of their value.

Map settings & luck also plays a role when it comes to City States. If there are less than the normal amount of city states, if it takes longer than usual to meet them (because of the map), or if the types of city states are undesirable, then Greece loses some of their benefit.

From vanilla to now, Aztec have been my favorite civ and I find them to be the most powerful, yet they don't seem overpowered. Especially as BNW made narrow/tall empires, previously the most effective empire building strategy, even more effective.

More pop points directly leads to more science and indirectly leads to more hammers and gold. combine that with the second best culture bonus in the game (gets you to monarchy faster than poland but just won't lead to a total of 7 more SPs by game's end) and one of the two UU that's beneficial from start to finish. Granted trying to stay happy with the Aztecs is akin to riding a mechanical bull

chazzycat said:

Greece is good, but hardly OP IMO. It's not like it's terribly difficult to keep city states allied playing as normal civs. I would rather have extra gold that can be spent on anything (like Venice or Arabia) rather than just an advantage in city state gifts. And with the warmonger penlaty changes, early UUs have lost a lot of their value.

Map settings & luck also plays a role when it comes to City States. If there are less than the normal amount of city states, if it takes longer than usual to meet them (because of the map), or if the types of city states are undesirable, then Greece loses some of their benefit.

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I guess Greece isn't that OP then because the diplomatic victory can be stopped by keeping more cs' than other civilizations but keeping them by making a Dow on civilizations that benefit through diplomatic victory. This way, the AI won't be able to take your cs'.

chazzycat said:

IMO, a civ can only make the claim of being OP if they have an advantage over other civs on any map type, size, or settings.

this is a pretty short list: Poland, Babylon, Korea, Maya. Free social policies, science, and great people are always great no matter the circumstances.

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I'm going to disagree with you about the Maya. For one, their great people aren't free, they're loans from the future; when you take a Mayan great person, it increases the GPP needed for the next one. Of course, their main claim to fame is having a shrine that gives science. (and extra faith, but that's not the main point) It's a very nice building, but unless you can get a lot of cities, it's not really that much of a bonus if you can't get a lot of cities up.

The main idea of Mayan strategy is to beeline Theology and expand. However, too quick of an expansion gives you a negative diplo mod with basically every AI. And because you're beelining theology, your early defensive force is... archers. Even if you aren't expanding, you don't get CBs to hold off an early aggressive neighbor, and warmongering on your part is pretty much entirely off the table.

And that's not even considering the fact that most Mayan strats ignore the tried-and-true 4-city NC rush.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Maya are one of the most fun civs to play. However, I wouldn't even call them a top-tier civ in BNW. Second tier, perhaps. Either way, I don't find them even remotely competitive for the title of "OP."

EDIT: My main contention, really, is that I see the Maya as a religious civ and not as a scientific civ. They're probably the first to get Theology, which makes getting those wonders all the easier. It's possible to spend an early GP on a prophet, and the +1 faith from shrines means faster pantheon/religion. They also prefer going wide, which just goes well with religion in general. In my opinion, that's the strength of the Maya, which isn't enough to be OP.

chazzycat said:

IMO, a civ can only make the claim of being OP if they have an advantage over other civs on any map type, size, or settings.

this is a pretty short list: Poland, Babylon, Korea, Maya. Free social policies, science, and great people are always great no matter the circumstances.

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Poland lack specilisation and is not close to be best in any win condition, UB and UU is not that good compared what some other civs get, not that good early game either, its not OP.

Babylon: both UU and UB are not big improvements, you can neraly allways get something better then what Babylon gets.
Its basicly just a fast rush Tech civ, good at science but suffers in other areas like completly lacking a killer UU, not OP.

Korea:takeslong time to get its UA fully online, its turtleship can actually be worse then the unit it replaces, Hawaca don't carry anything over.
Its basicly like Babylon with a UA that take longer time to get online but stronger then you get it online, not OP.

Maya: Got both most usefull UU and UB of the Civs mentioned but still they are not good compared to some others Civs UUs and UBs it also suffers that its UA need a Tech path that is not very good for fast expansion while its UB is great for fast expansion, not OP.

Are people only looking to win as fast as possible and only looking for science to win as fast as possible because not allways are win as fast as possible the safest win, and hun rush to a SV victory is probably safer then a peacefull Korea SV because your opponents will be to weak to competate.

The most OP civ always has been and always will be Spain. Free 1000's of gold and insane bonuses when settling near NW. Get real people.

#2 OP is Attila for you are immediately dead if near them. (horse archers, rams, free tech, hammers)
#3 OP Probably Babylon for run away science
#4 OP Arabia and Mongols for free win unit (Camel/Keshiek)
#5 OP China, Chukonu are absurdly strong, free libraries, + more generals born.
#6 OP Shoshone, Mass territory and crazy ruin bonuses
#7 OP Mayans, Free Science, Free Faith, Free Great People, What more do you want?
#8 OP Etheopia, Free Faith, strong combat bonus if going tall
#9 Not even OP this far down the list, Poland Free Policies, Gold from Stables, decent UU

I am currently playing immortal - large continents - domination game with Zulu and OH MY GOD.

These African guys are insanely powerful.

I managed to conquer my entire continent (5 civs) before the renaissance, out teched for most of the time, with only 3 - 4 decent "home" cities and with GPT below zero for most of the time (Honor finisher is absolutely awesome).

Many people see power of their low melee maintenance, but I fell in love with -25% experience required for promotions. That combined with Honor allowed me to have melee units with march + blitz or ranged units with range + logistics in the medieval age. Impi are a bit overrated because "pure" Impi aren't that good (additional weak attack is nice, but not incredible), they become terrifying because of all those Zulu UA bonuses and UB promotions.

Melee/gun units with 3 movement, +30% resistance to ranged attacks, bonus to flanking, +10% to power and +10% to power in the open terrain, plus insanely fast experience gaining (half of my army is healing every turn, able to attack two times and having ~50% bonus in any terrain), great generals and discipline =

I don't know if Zulu are OP, they are IMHO the best war civilization.
Mongolia has the best UU in game, which is almost invicidible when correctly used, but it stops shining in late renaissance (?), later and before you have only generals healing fast.
Huns are able to rush enemies extremely early, but their best times pass also really early, and you are left only with +1 from pastures.
Assyria can capture cities easy, and solves technological problem of warmongering, but they have no bonuses to, uhm, "pure combat".
Japan has decent UA, decent Samurai and absolutely useless Zero Nothing spectacular.
Rome, Germany, Ottomans, England are good warmongers in certain circumstances. Denmark is uhm at least controversial

On the other hand, Zulu have very universal bonuses which make them always terrifying. In the very early game melee maintenance ability allows them to have bigger armies in poor times, in the early medieval/late classical age they can devastate the entire continent and all civilizations with Impi, and they enter into Renaissance with entire army experienced and absolutely elite infantry (with all those Bull promotions, post - Impi promotions and so on). IMHO they are overall the best in combat.

The only civ I would call OP would be eventually Babylon, with +8 to science at writing (scientist -> academy), this is really hard to beat. Still, I'm not sure if this is enough powerful to be called overpowered.

Denkt said:

Poland lack specilisation and is not close to be best in any win condition, UB and UU is not that good compared what some other civs get, not that good early game either, its not OP.

Babylon: both UU and UB are not big improvements, you can neraly allways get something better then what Babylon gets.
Its basicly just a fast rush Tech civ, good at science but suffers in other areas like completly lacking a killer UU, not OP.

Korea:takeslong time to get its UA fully online, its turtleship can actually be worse then the unit it replaces, Hawaca don't carry anything over.
Its basicly like Babylon with a UA that take longer time to get online but stronger then you get it online, not OP.

Maya: Got both most usefull UU and UB of the Civs mentioned but still they are not good compared to some others Civs UUs and UBs it also suffers that its UA need a Tech path that is not very good for fast expansion while its UB is great for fast expansion, not OP.

Are people only looking to win as fast as possible and only looking for science to win as fast as possible because not allways are win as fast as possible the safest win, and hun rush to a SV victory is probably safer then a peacefull Korea SV because your opponents will be to weak to competate.

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If Poland and Babylon aren't OP, then there's no such thing.

chazzycat said:

If Poland and Babylon aren't OP, then there's no such thing.

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True. And, even if they're not OP in a binary way, and only more powerful than most other civs, they should still be balanced by toning down their powers.

CraigMak said:

The most OP civ always has been and always will be Spain. Free 1000's of gold and insane bonuses when settling near NW. Get real people.

#2 OP is Attila for you are immediately dead if near them. (horse archers, rams, free tech, hammers)
#3 OP Probably Babylon for run away science
#4 OP Arabia and Mongols for free win unit (Camel/Keshiek)
#5 OP China, Chukonu are absurdly strong, free libraries, + more generals born.
#6 OP Shoshone, Mass territory and crazy ruin bonuses
#7 OP Mayans, Free Science, Free Faith, Free Great People, What more do you want?
#8 OP Etheopia, Free Faith, strong combat bonus if going tall
#9 Not even OP this far down the list, Poland Free Policies, Gold from Stables, decent UU

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Spain, as often stated, is a roll the dice civ. On some games, it's an ordinary civ. On other games, it's an epic civ when you have the best NW's near you, but you still have to work hard to get them and if it means capturing CS', then you bear diplomatic fallout.

Shoshone is also a bit situational. They're dangerous if they have plenty of room around them as well as lots of ruins.

Ethiopia is a turtle civ. During industrial era, it does seem a bit of an OP civ because you can't mess with them too late at times. If they get defender of faith, patriotic war (Order) and himeji castle, that's a 70% combat bonus for all Ethiopian units in their territory. Increase that to 100% combat bonus for UU next to capitol.

adwcta said:

You would think... There's a rather large contingent of deity players who want to move Polynesia out of bottom tier to be on par with France. I'm going to fire up one more Deity game with them this long weekend, but my experience with them has not been encouraging so far.

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now this is interesting. altho im sure its something to do with them founding the world congress every time, not about the moais.

chazzycat said:

If Poland and Babylon aren't OP, then there's no such thing.

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I concur. I would call them the two strongest civs, all things considered. That said, the game is balanced.

CraigMak said:

The most OP civ always has been and always will be Spain. Free 1000's of gold and insane bonuses when settling near NW. Get real people.



#2 OP is Attila for you are immediately dead if near them. (horse archers, rams, free tech, hammers)

#3 OP Probably Babylon for run away science

#4 OP Arabia and Mongols for free win unit (Camel/Keshiek)

#5 OP China, Chukonu are absurdly strong, free libraries, + more generals born.

#6 OP Shoshone, Mass territory and crazy ruin bonuses

#7 OP Mayans, Free Science, Free Faith, Free Great People, What more do you want?

#8 OP Etheopia, Free Faith, strong combat bonus if going tall

#9 Not even OP this far down the list, Poland Free Policies, Gold from Stables, decent UU

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Quite the opposite for Poland. If a civ is highly specialized towards one victory like Mongols or Huns, they are easier to baffle. Poland, on the other hand is a jack of all trades that can do anything well. They are one of the hardest civs to beat in both the hands of the AI and humans.

MattZed said:

I concur. I would call them the two strongest civs, all things considered. That said, the game is balanced.

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That makes absolutely no sense.

Anyway, Greece is the most OP AI foe. Unless Shaka is in a conquering mood.

Not sure any civ is OP, but there are certainly civs that are a bit stronger than others, the most important aspect of it though is that you play them well.

Babylon, Korea, Poland, Shoshone, Maya, Arabia, Aztecs, Siam, Zulu, Huns (in no parrticular order) are the best ones I play as, but other people might play better with other civs, I know there's a lot of love for England, Brazil, Inca and a few others.

I don't know how anyone takes Greece as an OP civ, it's pretty much inferior to Siam in 90% of what it does.

EDIT: Also, any civ that gets early game benefits is generally OP compared to civs with late game benefits due to the snowballing effect.

lokithepunishr said:

Not sure any civ is OP, but there are certainly civs that are a bit stronger than others, the most important aspect of it though is that you play them well.

Babylon, Korea, Poland, Shoshone, Maya, Arabia, Aztecs, Siam, Zulu, Huns (in no parrticular order) are the best ones I play as, but other people might play better with other civs, I know there's a lot of love for England, Brazil, Inca and a few others.

I don't know how anyone takes Greece as an OP civ, it's pretty much inferior to Siam in 90% of what it does.

EDIT: Also, any civ that gets early game benefits is generally OP compared to civs with late game benefits due to the snowballing effect.

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Well we can argue about that controlling more CS not only give you the bonuses of controlling more CS but also keeps other Civs from getting ally bonues with them so Greece do have advantages over Siam.

Also for the economical benifints of Greece UA, I Think some of you forgett that Quest do give you CS influence and in early game you can not afford to give hugh chuncks of gold to them, Greece allow you to get more from the CS Before you just can buy them all and even then Greece will probably save alot of gold.

adwcta said:

True. And, even if they're not OP in a binary way, and only more powerful than most other civs, they should still be balanced by toning down their powers.

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How would you even be able to balance Babylon? The mere fact that they get any science boosts is why they're one of the best civs in the game; you'd need to make science less all-encompassing in order to prevent Babylon and Korea from blowing every other civ out of the water (sans Poland because hahaha who needs the Oracle when you have SEVEN Oracles).