It doesn't take nearly that long, and the more cities you found and actually develop, the faster you will overtake the tradition civs. The real advantage of going wide with liberty is a production advantage though, and in denying real estate (and thus, hammers, among other things) to the other civs.
Why Liberty as opposed to Tradition.
- Thread starter strollen2
- Start date
It doesn't take nearly that long, and the more cities you found and actually develop, the faster you will overtake the tradition civs. The real advantage of going wide with liberty is a production advantage though, and in denying real estate (and thus, hammers, among other things) to the other civs.
dasaard200
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2014
- Messages
- 315
With either Liberty, OR Tradition; I race to get 1st religion out of the box.
My tenets are: Pagoda, tithe, then Mosque, and a happy . An all-up city can then pump out 8 Fpt !
It does pay to go whole-hog in this area, and does not take a SP into Piety .
My tenets are: Pagoda, tithe, then Mosque, and a happy . An all-up city can then pump out 8 Fpt !
It does pay to go whole-hog in this area, and does not take a SP into Piety .
isau
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2007
- Messages
- 3,071
I always found the most important thing to make Liberty work for me is to plant cities directly on top of resources instead of next to them. That saves you a tile you would normally have to work. Mainly I like to do this for resources that provide production, particularly a hill with gold/iron/copper/silver. If I see a bunch of those all over the map I'll start thinking about going Liberty.
Liberty on a map without any horses or elephants is rough though. That means no circuses. The game really is biased in favor of Tradition... a lot has to come together to make Liberty about as good. But it can be a nice challenge.
(FWIW: For another challenge, try turning off all victory conditions except for Time. Then you'll begin to see Liberty shine. Expand or lose!)
Liberty on a map without any horses or elephants is rough though. That means no circuses. The game really is biased in favor of Tradition... a lot has to come together to make Liberty about as good. But it can be a nice challenge.
(FWIW: For another challenge, try turning off all victory conditions except for Time. Then you'll begin to see Liberty shine. Expand or lose!)
As I wrote earlier in this thread, I am struggling with wide/liberty, but it has been very interesting (but maybe not better per se). I feel like I have to be very picky with expos. Just as much, maybe even more so, than 4 city Tradition. I don’t necessarily settle on luxes, but settling hills feel like a must. That extra early production is crucial.
The dirt in the game I just rolled dictates Tradition (large island by myself, just 3 kinds of lux), so it will be nice to try that tree again, post patch.
The dirt in the game I just rolled dictates Tradition (large island by myself, just 3 kinds of lux), so it will be nice to try that tree again, post patch.
For me it's a balancing problem. If i can get a pantheon which gives me an early religion it should be clearly the most rewardfull thing to go piety, but it isn't. In most cases it's better to go with tradition.
Liberty I'm not so sure, if it's just me who can't handle the tree right. I seem to have money problems and the computer doesn't give me the right tiles to solve the problem(for example i get cows and such first all the time instead of a double luxury to get that much needed 240 gold), if i go liberty. Also not enoguh smileys in the Liberty tree for my taste.
Honor is kind of in between for me, i like culture from barbs especially when i have some room for barb spawn and can milk camps without destroying them. But I'm not sure how good Honor opener really is i used to take it all the time pre patch, because i loved that extra culture. Of course you need to get additional units to really take advantage of that, but i still like the Honor tree +1 happiness + 2 culture from a unit also seems to be quite nice. And it totally screws someone if you settle 3 tiels away and welcome him with a citadel.
Liberty I'm not so sure, if it's just me who can't handle the tree right. I seem to have money problems and the computer doesn't give me the right tiles to solve the problem(for example i get cows and such first all the time instead of a double luxury to get that much needed 240 gold), if i go liberty. Also not enoguh smileys in the Liberty tree for my taste.
Honor is kind of in between for me, i like culture from barbs especially when i have some room for barb spawn and can milk camps without destroying them. But I'm not sure how good Honor opener really is i used to take it all the time pre patch, because i loved that extra culture. Of course you need to get additional units to really take advantage of that, but i still like the Honor tree +1 happiness + 2 culture from a unit also seems to be quite nice. And it totally screws someone if you settle 3 tiels away and welcome him with a citadel.
adcarrymaokai
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2013
- Messages
- 1,616
On standard map size with the standard number of players. When you play larger maps and/or decrease the number of opponents, Liberty becomes better. The main problem with Civ 5 is that science is extremely important, and going wide imposes science penalties. Moreover, the number of trade routes is globally limited, so you can't have ane extensive network of trade routes between your cities. So yeah, the game makes Tradition simply superior to everything else. On higher difficulty levels, you just pick Tradition, get the growth with science, rush NC, and be fine for the rest of game. People only pick Liberty when they plan on Domination.
If they really wanted to balance Liberty and Tradition, you'd need to flip the culture benefits. In other words, if it took longer to fill out Tradition (and get the lovely, critical food boast and free aqueducts), and instead it was Liberty that got superior culture at quicker speed (increase the Liberty Opener and maybe make the Golden Age better) then you'd have more of a choice, particularly if you scouted and saw a lot of luxuries.
It's pretty difficult to sacrifice going for a large Capital, and it's all the harder if you aren't staring at luxuries all over the place. Otherwise unless you're going for Liberty Domination, you're essentially committed to Tradition for peaceful growth.
It's pretty difficult to sacrifice going for a large Capital, and it's all the harder if you aren't staring at luxuries all over the place. Otherwise unless you're going for Liberty Domination, you're essentially committed to Tradition for peaceful growth.
the whole thread d be useless if People were able to READ what the sp actually do:
Lib: 1 free worker
Lib: 1 free settler
Lib: 1 free GA
Lib: 1 cult/hammer/happynes per City
While the 2 mian policies in Tradition are
15% Bonus grow
10% grow + 2 Food
1 happyness/Gold per 2 People in City
As u can see lib offers either 1 time boni or per City boni
OBVIOUSLY these get outshined by the Long term and espacially mulitplier boni from Tradition in a LONG GAME.
Lib: 1 free worker
Lib: 1 free settler
Lib: 1 free GA
Lib: 1 cult/hammer/happynes per City
While the 2 mian policies in Tradition are
15% Bonus grow
10% grow + 2 Food
1 happyness/Gold per 2 People in City
As u can see lib offers either 1 time boni or per City boni
OBVIOUSLY these get outshined by the Long term and espacially mulitplier boni from Tradition in a LONG GAME.
adcarrymaokai
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2013
- Messages
- 1,616
That's 3. There is also Aristocracy, which gives 1 happiness per 10 citizens in a city. With pop 10 cities, it is pretty much the same as Meritocracy, and with Tradition, your cities will be pop 10 midgame.
Extra production and a free settler is what is amazing about Liberty.
Extra production and cheap settlers is what is amazing about Liberty.
consentient
Domination!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 3,361
Free great person at the most key time of the game is the best part of Liberty for me. Unless I HAVE to go Tradition (no space, for example), I go Liberty and go to war to get an economy going that can ease the pain of a slower science mid-game.
Agreed, that is one of the best about Tradition.
I think it is not uncommon, but delaying the worker/settler cannot be worth it. One could always open Tradition before the last couple in Liberty, but it seems to me that the tile crisis is mostly past at that point.
InDubioProReo
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
- Messages
- 231
By the way, if you are playing Persia, a 2-3 city Comp Bow rush with 1-2 Immortals right after you pick Representation is incredibly powerful. You just basically roll over that first civ you set your sights on. Keeping this in mind, I would say unless one's going for a peaceful game, you should pretty much always use and abuse this combo because it's so strong.
ive long thought that faster tile improvement was way better than the free worker from liberty. i still like free worker but the bonuses from faster tile improvement are so much more versatile for strategies. selling resources faster, growing/producing/chopping faster, pillage cheese, or even just using it as justification for less workers and maintenance costs are really strong long term.
Acken
Deity
Citizenship is pretty useful yes. Liberty in itself isn't a bad tree, it's miles above honor/piety as an opener. The main issue it faces is its late/weak happiness and the fact that tradition can get aqueducts without even getting the tech. It does its job pretty well for early wars too.
Agreed, free worker less important than faster tile improvement. Half price settlers though is the real gem.
I asked this already, but did not get an answer. Do folks go for the free worker or free settler first?
Acken
Deity
Free settler is usually better since like always you can steal your workers.
If you cannot steal I guess it's closer between the two and depends on whether you need to rush for a city spot and if you have important tiles to improve like salt. However I'd still prioritize settler first and just make a quick worker as second or third build, culture is rather slow for liberty so relying on a single city to grab policy #4 is probably not ideal.
I'm not a huge Liberty player though
If you cannot steal I guess it's closer between the two and depends on whether you need to rush for a city spot and if you have important tiles to improve like salt. However I'd still prioritize settler first and just make a quick worker as second or third build, culture is rather slow for liberty so relying on a single city to grab policy #4 is probably not ideal.
I'm not a huge Liberty player though
I think peaceful Liberty is underrated due to people typically misplaying it. The things that are fundamentally most important are the same whether you take Tradition or Liberty -- of course Liberty is going to look bad if you think opening Liberty means that growing cities is any less important.
In my opinion, the number of cities that you want to build is the same whether you're Liberty or Tradition, and you still want to grow these cities as big as possible either way. The difference is really timing. Liberty can typically get one more city than Tradition pre-National College, while Tradition is often better served delaying more of its expos until after the National College.
Liberty and Tradition both have their strengths and weaknesses, but your evaluations of these trees aren't going to be right if you think of it in terms of "going tall" or "going wide". With both trees, the goal is to "go big".
In my opinion, the number of cities that you want to build is the same whether you're Liberty or Tradition, and you still want to grow these cities as big as possible either way. The difference is really timing. Liberty can typically get one more city than Tradition pre-National College, while Tradition is often better served delaying more of its expos until after the National College.
Liberty and Tradition both have their strengths and weaknesses, but your evaluations of these trees aren't going to be right if you think of it in terms of "going tall" or "going wide". With both trees, the goal is to "go big".
I respectfully disagree. With Tradition, one needs an exceptional reason to settle a 5th city.
Liberty, the most valuable perk is the half price settlers. The fewer you build, the more that is wasted.
I strongly agree with that!
Similar threads
