Mitchum
Deity
I don't think throwing up our arms is the way to go. I'm away from the game right now but feel that the SIP capital is better long term, especially with 4 food to itself.
Which is an uninspiring statistic. We don't know how many of them ran any tests or to what extent they did so.Five teams have settled on PH, it seems.
It's this info that is the most interesting.So either PD went somewhere no one else went and liked it, or they saw something they liked that no one else liked enough (others may have preferred to stay on the PH), or PD decided to come back to SIP. Very bizarre. Maybe on epic they liked SIP best but didn't want to risk missing something really good.
SIP is very strong on research, while PH gets us Work Boats out early.To me, the data tell me that SIP is better, simply because they're close enough that the increased research rate plus SIP being more powerful in the mid-game rapidly moves it ahead of PH in hammers.
It was my understanding that people were waiting to see the final test result comparisons, since time was allowed for additional testing. There's no point in having run additional testing if the additional testing is not allowed to sway anyone's vote, correct?It looks like the PH wins...
Sounds like SIP is best then. The only minor argument I can come up with is that a plains hill is a poor tile to work and that we get extra output per poulation point throughout the game (moreso noticed at lower sizes).Mitchum said:So I guess I'd like to hear an argument for why PH is better than a SIP save that gets similar early exploration to a PH start. I'm all for moving the game forward, but I think it's okay to delay another day to get everyone's reasons on the table.
In my testing, PH has two early problems: slow research and no hammer tile for a quick wb. Mining the hill gets the wb faster to speed up research, plus it gives us an extra 10b in the process, working the clams for 5t to slow down the wkr but speed up mining. (It's an elegant solution--try it!) The clam nets are growth and commerce, let's not forget, so it's not exactly a question of growth versus hammers. It's hammers producing growth (and commerce). Furthermore, I can't find any other way to get Pottery by T53 which gets us an earlier granary (1t), which again produces more growth (1t).@LC I'm surprised that you suggest that we build the mine before farming the corn. Why is that? I would think growth trumps hammers. Are you doing it to speed up WBs? Does it pay off in the long run by forcing us to work clams for the extra commerce?
Rather than just focusing on the first 20 turns, where does doing this leave us at T82 so we can compare to the other games? I assume that this was one of your tests that you have not been able to upload...
I've changed anyone who's expressed ambivalence to abstain. So yes, the two spots are quite comparable in the eyes of the team. Given the time table we have to work with, I'd like to move forward with something by the end of today...
Weird. Perhaps you are looking at the wrong saved game file? I just downloaded the 1950 BC file from message #247.Dhoom, your post 247 and the saves you posted don't seem to correspond. The saves only show 3 wbs built, 2 netted, 1 exploring. Your post says you have 2 exploring wbs.
Kindly find a way to get them to Mitchum so that we can all see and compare the results, please.Otherwise, I don't find your T84 save to be comparable to mdy's and my best PH efforts (not yet uploaded)
Well, it sounds like it is only 1 less Granary, since I do have 4 Work Boats. As noted, I dumped City #2's Hammers into a Galley, in order to save on whipping unhappiness in the capital.in which both have our second city with a granary circa T82-83. In other words, you have 1 less wb and 1 less granary, in exchange for more research and +1.
I'm not really seeing the major difference here.In any case, to make a good comparison, imo, you would need to settle the second SIP city offshore, because onshore looks like a serious drag on Paris.
Since you claim to have 4 Work Boats and since I double-checked Dh #247 to ensure that it has 4 Work Boats, we have the same number of Work Boats.In my SIP, I only have one explorer, but earlier than mdy's (28 explorer-turns vs. 30 exp-t), but I have all three clams netted, so I have one more wb than you and I settled Orleans offshore, and my Orleans will finish the granary 3-4t sooner than yours.
I am very interested to see how they will stack up against Mit #250. Can you improve upon Mitchum's result?mdy's and my best PH efforts (not yet uploaded), in which both have our second city with a granary circa T82-83
There are multiple test runs mentioned in that message. Can you please clarify which one of those test runs it matches up to?Looking at the saves and the data, my current preference is PH - LC #257
Yes, that's cool. This production comes at a cost of some research and exploration, but it is what it is.1. It already has settler #3 out and will quickly grow back to 5 pops.
City 2 comes at the same time as Dh #247, so that's fine.2. It traded an early City #2 for an earlier Pottery/granary. This must be why the capital is in good shape after just having whipped a settler.
Quite compariable to Dh #247.3. Whip unhappiness isn't too bad in Paris.
Same for Dh #247, except that if we settle 3E in Dh #247 instead of trying to chop an earlier Galley as I suggested might be possible, then we get even more time to identify a settling location, otherwise these saves are equal on this point.4. A later city #2 could provide a slight advantage. This save has 28 exploration turns before we need to indentify where to settle.
Equal to Dh #247, except that Dh #247 has the first Work Boat Explorer for 11 extra turns. If we use our first Work Boat to meet the AIs, that's potentially 11 extra turns of Foreign Intercontinental Trade Routes, depending upon how far away the AIs are relative to when we learn Writing.5. Two early wb explorers (vs. most SIP test).
I think I just showed in my last message that it isn't a major issue at all, since we'd only need to steal the Corn in the long run and perhaps in the short-run, too (only borrowing a Clam temporarily if Paris is whipped down to Size 2 and can't actually use all 3 of them at once).6. SIP/3E seems stong, but long term, 3E stealing food from Paris could become an issue.
As I showed, 3E works out quite well as a City. If 3E is settled on a Strategic Resource, we will still get +1 Hammer for it, unlike if 3E were a flatland Grassland square, in which case we WOULD miss out. So, with 3E being a GH square, 3E would pick up any benefit from such a potential Strategic Resource quite nicely.7. I hate to play the resource guessing game because it can lead to bad choices, but if there is a strategic resource on the island, it will be in PH's BFC and can be worked. With SIP, the two grassland hills are outside the BFC. This is a very minor issue to me though.