The Deity Challenge Line-up #35 - Siam OCC

Redaxe · Jul 12, 2015

Haha I've got something funny to report. So Assyria originally chose Autocracy but they flipped over to Order about 20 turns back. Now they've just flipped back to Autocracy. But it seems they really want my ideology. What makes it more funny is they are following my religion but I don't have any happiness buildings or beliefs so in a sense it is keeping Assyria in check - they have a -40% production modifier.

Besides that things seem to be going ok. This map proverbially has you as the small fish swimming with the sharks. I think I'm doing an ok job of keeping the peace. I built a landmark in Germany, Iroquois and Assyria so despite having differing ideology. Germany denounced me and was hostile at one point but with the Landmark they are now neutral. I think that is a key to manage your diplomacy here - believe me a permanent diplomatic boost is very helpful... Diplomats in all the capitals is good too as it gives some intrigue bonuses.

Also I've managed to pass my religion in the World Congress.

Spoiler :

Redaxe · Jul 12, 2015

Ok this gets even better - check this out.

A city from Assyria just flipped to me and just disappeared on the map.

Spoiler :

stormtrooper412 · Jul 12, 2015

Here's what it looks like

I actually managed 9 wonders, including ToA and HG. Couldn't even dream of getting Petra.

However, things are cooking up and I'm unlikely gonna see the end of this game :lol:

z284pwr · Jul 12, 2015

stormtrooper412 said:
Here's what it looks like

I actually managed 9 wonders, including ToA and HG. Couldn't even dream of getting Petra.

However, things are cooking up and I'm unlikely gonna see the end of this game

I had the same AI forward settle on the same tile...aggressive settle considering where their Capital is....I didn't let that last long :mad:

adcarrymaokai · Jul 12, 2015

cazaderonus said:
Had enough time to go for HG before getting to it. Made it in 9 turns while pre chopping 5/6 forest. Even 4 tile distance ones. Chopped everything for petra and made it in 8.

You built the HG in 9 turns without chopping? 250/9=27.8, subtract Aristocracy bonus gives 24 hammers per turn. Where do you get 24 hammers per turn? And chopping 5-tiles away gives 5 hammers or something, so averaging between 3-4-5 tiles, it's no more than 50-60 hammers, which shaves off just a couple turns off Petra.

You get 2 hammers from the city, 1 from wheat x 2, 1 from wines x 3, 2 from deer, so that's already 6 pop giving 9 hammers and 16 food + 2 from granary and 2 from landed elite, so that's 20 food -12 for citizens = 8 food, meaning even if you work a couple mines next means you practically stop growing for about 6-9 hammers at most (mines), so you will have 8-9 pop with a total of 18 hammers if you work 3 mines straight up and stagnate. That's still not 24...

Acken · Jul 12, 2015

Redaxe said:
Haha I've got something funny to report. So Assyria originally chose Autocracy but they flipped over to Order about 20 turns back. Now they've just flipped back to Autocracy. But it seems they really want my ideology. What makes it more funny is they are following my religion but I don't have any happiness buildings or beliefs so in a sense it is keeping Assyria in check - they have a -40% production modifier.

Besides that things seem to be going ok. This map proverbially has you as the small fish swimming with the sharks. I think I'm doing an ok job of keeping the peace. I built a landmark in Germany, Iroquois and Assyria so despite having differing ideology. Germany denounced me and was hostile at one point but with the Landmark they are now neutral. I think that is a key to manage your diplomacy here - believe me a permanent diplomatic boost is very helpful... Diplomats in all the capitals is good too as it gives some intrigue bonuses.

Also I've managed to pass my religion in the World Congress.

Spoiler :

Haha. Millions abducted by aliens.

cazaderonus · Jul 13, 2015

adcarrymaokai said:
You built the HG in 9 turns without chopping? 250/9=27.8, subtract Aristocracy bonus gives 24 hammers per turn. Where do you get 24 hammers per turn? And chopping 5-tiles away gives 5 hammers or something, so averaging between 3-4-5 tiles, it's no more than 50-60 hammers, which shaves off just a couple turns off Petra.

You get 2 hammers from the city, 1 from wheat x 2, 1 from wines x 3, 2 from deer, so that's already 6 pop giving 9 hammers and 16 food + 2 from granary and 2 from landed elite, so that's 20 food -12 for citizens = 8 food, meaning even if you work a couple mines next means you practically stop growing for about 6-9 hammers at most (mines), so you will have 8-9 pop with a total of 18 hammers if you work 3 mines straight up and stagnate. That's still not 24...

Yep, i did.
I worked maybe 3/4 mines and cap was already 8/9 pop around those turns. I had bought the windmill and pretty much everything else as wine was not needed at all. I had also allied a couple of mercantile CSes through quest which put me in the 25/30 happiness so i got a Golden age even though i dont remember on which wonder exactly.

I know it was 9 turn as so was oracle when i queued both. I just inserted Petra in between when i got to currency. And the chopping gave me 6*2+2*10+1*20 if remember ok. It's not much, but it was enough. Petra took 8 turns.

Everything was pre-chopped, every mines available (bought some more) were up 2 turns at most after i started building a wonder. So yeah, it was a perfect start, and that requires some luck. How many times have i suffered the exact opposite and have lost all those to AIs by 1 turn. So, yeah :lol:

And damn, you cannot liberate on OCC ? That's pretty lame. It's supposed to be a challenge but that doesnt seem fair at all. Should be available.

beetle · Jul 13, 2015

consentient said:
The appeal is that it's a challenge...

Redaxe said:
This map proverbially has you as the small fish swimming with the sharks. I think I'm doing an ok job of keeping the peace. I built a landmark in Germany, Iroquois and Assyria so despite having differing ideology.

Yes, it is an interestingly tense setup. I am trying it again, to try and win faster. Go Freedom!

Thanks for the map consentient.

Redaxe said:
Ok this gets even better - check this out. A city from Assyria just flipped to me and just disappeared on the map.

Acken said:
Haha. Millions abducted by aliens.

It is funny, but do you think the disappearing cities was by design -- or just the only way the developers could force the OCC aspect?

stormtrooper412 · Jul 13, 2015

Obviously both, OCC means any city you obtain gets insta-razed

beetle · Jul 13, 2015

Not obviously both. It would be far more consistent if OCC forced the usual raze option when a city is gained. Liberate should also be a possibility. I also miss the option to sell off buildings while the city is being razed, and I miss the option to trade the conquered city away.

I get that this all makes things more challenging. But I must point out that OCC actually makes conquering sprees much easier! You don’t have the usual happiness problems and you don’t have to worry about the AI taking back the city. So I don’t think “insta-raze” is by design. As compared to implementation that one would expected, warmongering is less challenging.

The extra complication from a programming perspective is that OCC-with-conquering-as-expected would mean that caps and CS (and holy cites, and some Indonesian expos) are now able to be razed.

My suspicion is that this was too much trouble for the developers to figure out -- so “insta-razed” is the hack result we have. I find it very immersion breaking.

In a similar vein, I believe that Venice and Austrian UA have the CS-no-longer-can-be-liberated feature as an undesirable side effect -- and not by purposeful design.

stormtrooper412 · Jul 13, 2015

Well yes, the "insta-raze" gimmick is a side effect of "thou shalt never own more than one city"

claudiupb · Jul 13, 2015

beetle said:
Not obviously both. It would be far more consistent if OCC forced the usual raze option when a city is gained. Liberate should also be a possibility.

This would introduce several problems and exploits, like being able to use the temporary territory to heal, plant citadels and conquer cities easier, use the city aircraft base. If you conquer a 20 pop city you have 10 turns to use those bonuses, including wonder bonuses (off the top of my head you could use big ben bonus to rush buy a lot of military during those 10 turns.

I agree 100% that liberating/resurrecting should be a possibility, that just seems like a bug.

cazaderonus · Jul 13, 2015

"Previously on Civilization V, DLC 35 !" **use ABC voice**

Spoiler :

And here are the screenshots:

Spoiler :

cazaderonus · Jul 13, 2015

Damn, just noticed i have the best finish time so far

Redaxe · Jul 13, 2015

Ok I'm done!!!

Turn 290 Diplomatic Victory - That might actually be my fastest Diety win yet!

Everything was pretty smooth sailing. But it was still a challenge to optimize turn time victory - so far from being a 'next turn' clickfest that some say it is. With the limitation of one city one bad diplomatic decision could make things very ugly very fast. You have limited resources so you have to really micromanage every aspect of your capital to succeed.
Germany was a pain with their GunBoat Diplomacy policy which actually outweighs Treaty Organization in influence generation.

And because Combustion is not on the diplomatic victory tech path your caravans tend not to be able to reach those farflung Citystates until quite late so it was up to 'Arsenal of Democracy' to carry the weight. Late game I was pumping out Lancers at 1 a turn and donating them - your City location is a real production monster providing you can get the food to grow it.

The last few turns 2 civs lost their capitals so 2 diplomats got evacuated so that was a loss of 2 votes so it was a pretty close win.

Also I forgot to say Religion was
-Desert Folklore
-World Church
-Religious Community
-Swords into Ploughshares
-Messiah

A few pointers
-Messiah is a great Enhancer belief here for a diplomatic victory. With the +25% conversion strength it takes just 1 go from a Prophet to convert a Citystate to win the religion quest. Without Messiah it usually takes 2 hits to convert the bigger Citystates - all told a Great Prophet can generate 160 Citystate influence. I've also learned to escort your Prophet with a cavalry unit - It's real tedious trying to wait for CityState units to move their damn arses out of the way so you can convert their cities so sometimes you need a military unit that can help clear a path for you.

-Arsenal of Democracy is very valuable if you have the Commerce policy Mercentalism and the Big Ben. This culminates in a 40% reduced cost to buy Landsknechts. For 130 gold you can donate one of these to a Citystate for 20 influence. A 250 gold donation to a CityState with the Patronage policy gives you just 15 influence. So that gives you more than double the value compared to gold donations. Late game you can buying several Landsknects per turn and donating them to multiple CityStates.

-For Diplomatic Victory Tech beeline should definitely be to Globalisation for extra votes and to the Info era ASAP so you get your extra spy/diplomat. An OCC map means you should also build the National Intelligence Agency This is one map where an extra spy/diplomat becomes real useful.

-An again for a peaceful game getting archaeology before all the digsites go and planting a Landmark in every nearby civ that's a potential threat can really swing diplomacy in your favor. It gives you extra leverage if say you decide to propose a World Religion to Civ's that already have their own religion and are of a different ideology. With a landmark, a 5gpt tribute for the 'we've traded recently' and denouncing a common enemy means you can get away with proposing resolutions that otherwise might get you into a war.

First screen is from Turn 289 the eve of my World Domination

Spoiler :

Redaxe · Jul 13, 2015

beetle said:
It is funny, but do you think the disappearing cities was by design -- or just the only way the developers could force the OCC aspect?

Well poor Assyria just flipped to Freedom right on the turn I just won - I started sending them Musicians and bumped them up to Popular. So everytime they flip which was the 3rd time they lose 2 policy tenets. So that is essentially 6 policies they've lost all up. Ouch! And all because my religion doesn't have any happiness beliefs for them to leverage off!

cazaderonus · Jul 13, 2015

Looks like from the last screen that you indeed had a pretty peacefull playthrough. I dont see the awfull forward settle i got as some other did from boadice. I also eee alex is gone, which is a game changer on the way to a diploV. Anyone dowed you ?

No matter what though congrats. Though i d say that going piety even with those good reformation belief is probably a waste of time for a DV. You dont need influence from conversion to make it in the end. It s all about the gold and the few prophets you ll get anyhow are enough for the few conversion missions. My faith reached a decent amount per turn and it was well used for scientists and engineers.

My cap didnt grow as much as yours but it s mostly due to the fact i had no point growing it after reaching my bulb moment. I focused on using the most production i could for units and gold output instead of food. I think my cap spent maybe the last 30 turns with no growth intended. I even stopped working scientist slot and sold research lab and some othrr stuff to improve my gpt.

beetle · Jul 13, 2015

Okay, a couple SV and everyone else went Diplo. Obviously diplo is the most straightforward for OCC, but where are the domination write ups? I am too incompetent to pull it off myself, so I am looking for stories!

The northern neighbor's has marsh in front of his cap, so perfect for leveling archers or even siege units. The eastern neighbor is a psycho, but at there is flat land. The west is all forest, but at least the map is a Pangaea. Or is domination on this map harder than I think?

Redaxe said:
So that is essentially 6 policies they've lost all up. Ouch!

That is rich! I have had games where I had to switch Ideologies twice -- really painful. But if you have 0 tenets it is less bad, and I imagine poor Assyria didn’t go long between those last two flips...

Redaxe · Jul 13, 2015

cazaderonus said:
Looks like from the last screen that you indeed had a pretty peacefull playthrough. I dont see the awfull forward settle i got as some other did from boadice. I also eee alex is gone, which is a game changer on the way to a diploV. Anyone dowed you ?

No matter what though congrats. Though i d say that going piety even with those good reformation belief is probably a waste of time for a DV. You dont need influence from conversion to make it in the end. It s all about the gold and the few prophets you ll get anyhow are enough for the few conversion missions. My faith reached a decent amount per turn and it was well used for scientists and engineers.

My cap didnt grow as much as yours but it s mostly due to the fact i had no point growing it after reaching my bulb moment. I focused on using the most production i could for units and gold output instead of food. I think my cap spent maybe the last 30 turns with no growth intended. I even stopped working scientist slot and sold research lab and some othrr stuff to improve my gpt.

I came very close to a DoW. Alex was marching an army right onto me so I called in Assyria to help out. That worked out really well because yes it removed them as a competitor (Morocco finished them off) but it also got rid of their religion so I had no competition to convert the entire East half of the map. So with World Church I had tonnes of culture coming in.

Ummm I didn't have Piety, Messiah is an enhancer belief. I've sorta found that on Diety I can never passively outpressure foreign religions even with Religious Texts so I prefer to save up a couple of Prophets and convert 8 cities at once. But in this case it didn't matter too much - but still I could convert cities on the West end of the map in 1 hit.
Science I was pretty much done with although I only researched Globalization several turns before the World Leader vote and it was those extra votes that got me over the line so yes it is as they say - diplomacy victory is really another type of science victory.

Gold income looks low because I owe 184gpt to other Civs - mainly because I took huge loans to buy out any remaining CityState knowing I had the numbers to win.

Remember too with growth that the Monarchy policy adds 1 gold per 2 population. Gold income was 22 from Monarchy, Gold base from capital = 62 and with the gold buildings & Commerce opener that is a 100% increase and that gold also boosts trade route income so late game growth is still increasing your income.
But mainly I wanted a huge city in case someone attacked me I'd have enough production to be able to build an army quickly. And of course eventually if you grow a large enough city every tile and specialist gets worked anyway - I wasn't far off that point.

cazaderonus · Jul 13, 2015

My bad. Not being english i got confused in the beliefs, mixed it up with a reformation one. As for the monarch trait you re not wrong, but i felt the instant benefit from going full production for units to give to cses, or money from wealth production while switching some terrain to trade posts was a better choice where i was at.

The Deity Challenge Line-up #35 - Siam OCC

Emperor

Emperor

Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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Deity

Actual Dad.

Deity

Peacemongering Turtlesaur

Deity

Peacemongering Turtlesaur

King

Actual Dad.

Actual Dad.

Emperor

Emperor

Actual Dad.

Deity

Emperor

Actual Dad.

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