...the stuff that legends are made of

If I assume correctly that this unit is appearing on PTW then this is the 'it' thing in PTW. It will be what the 'trebuchet' was to Age of Empires 2. The stuff that non-'Discovery channel avid viewers' would even know existed. One of the best creations of Ingenious China(along with vaccination, saltpeter, sea warfare missiles, guns, etc...) - the missile battery.

I'll stipulate on this military unit as best as I can. It will be:

1. A Chinese UU that is as strong as the cannon.
2. Requires the resource saltpeter and the tech Gunpowder.
3. Will cost as much or a little more than a catapult but definitely less than a cannon.

Maybe they'll give this unit to the Mongols although I don't know if that is factual or not.

image did not post

isn't that the korean uu?

Originally posted by sween32
isn't that the korean uu?

Click to expand...

yup, Firaxis released that pic a while ago. It's the Korean special unit Hwacha and replaces cannon I belive...

Maybe they'll give this unit to the Mongols although I don't know if that is factual or not.

Click to expand...

Mongols' special unit is called the Keshik and replaces knights. Check out the PTW section of the Info Center. It's all there...

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3infocenter.shtml#ptw

thanks, thunderfall. i was freakin out there for a minute cause i was told that was the korean uu awhile back on one of those game sites! i think they were having problems with starting a golden age with a unit that doesn't deal actual combat damage or something like that.

Originally posted by sween32
isn't that the korean uu?

Click to expand...

My my, doesn't that constitute virtual piracy? Why can't they just use the famous "turtle-boat" (Don't know the name) as the Korean UU? Replaces Ironclad... or maybe a very strong Frigate.

Found the name. Its "Turtle Ship", or Geobukseon.

You know, historically, the main weakness of the Chinese armies is in the lack of enough horses to form a large enough cavalry force to face down the nomads fr the north. Having a Rider UU is not making much historical sense. While I understand that this's due to the Mongol/Chinese combo in the original game, now that the Mongols are getting their own civ and UU in PTW, shldn't it be time to reconsider the Chinese UU?

I can think up a few suggestions. Like a cheaper pikeman (due to massive population), Cho-ku-no unit (powerful crossbow), ancient rockets etc.

The Chinese poses a unique problem in CivIII.

They are strictly speaking Militaristic (Due to constant internal and external warfare), Scientific (Due to lots of inventions), Commercial (Due to the Land and Sea Silk Roads - not to mention the modern Chinese pachant to be business-people everywhere they settle), and Industrial (Great Wall, the Yellow River-Yangtze channel). The only thing they aren't is Expansionist (exception being the travels of Admiral Zheng He)

Given its long, some-what-continuous history, the choices for UUs can be quite varied too.

Knight-Dragon: I like some of your ideas. ^_^ the cheaper pikemen (I'll like to call them Halberdiers) will be a killer with the Chinese Industrous bonus.

I think the Rider alludes to the Chinese invention of the stirrup - hence the 3MP. It also fits well with Chinese history since the Chinese managed territorial integrity despite a huge landmass and a long border.

Originally posted by Reboot
They are strictly speaking Militaristic (Due to constant internal and external warfare), Scientific (Due to lots of inventions), Commercial (Due to the Land and Sea Silk Roads - not to mention the modern Chinese pachant to be business-people everywhere they settle), and Industrial (Great Wall, the Yellow River-Yangtze channel). The only thing they aren't is Expansionist (exception being the travels of Admiral Zheng He)

Click to expand...

The Chinese are expansionist too. The original Chinese heartland is a stripling of land along the middle of the Huanghe; they expanded north, west, east and southwards. Then fr the Qin dynasty onwards, expanded south of the Yangzi. And in modern times, expanded into Manchuria (within the last 150 years or so). And now, expanding into Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia thru settlement.

Knight-Dragon: I like some of your ideas. ^_^ the cheaper pikemen (I'll like to call them Halberdiers) will be a killer with the Chinese Industrous bonus.

Click to expand...

Well, in Chinese shows, about the most common unit fr ancient times till Qing times is the spearmen and swordsmen. IMO, the Chinese UU shld be some kind of a defender unit, cos historically the Chinese armies are based on massively conscripted infantry, with some elite imperial units to give them some backbone.

I think the Rider alludes to the Chinese invention of the stirrup - hence the 3MP. It also fits well with Chinese history since the Chinese managed territorial integrity despite a huge landmass and a long border.

Click to expand...

Yes, the Tang did manage to form the best light horse units which enabled them to subdue all the way to the Hindu Kush, before losing to the expanding Arabs out of the Middle East.

may be off topic but...

China was the superpower just a few time before america discovery, their naval was much stronger than any europeen ones, they could have colonize the entire world before christph colomb time. So what happen ?

Chinese leader were eunuch ( testicle rip off, ouch) for reason i dont remember, and those eunuch beleive that china was the center of the world and decide to do not pay attention to other so call barbarian country, they decide to stop sea exploration ( political decision) and their knowledge in naval were lost within 100 year, and never catch up since that time.

Er... critical error.

The Chinese were ruled by Emperors. Eunuchs were like Chamberlains and Palace servants for the most part. Unfortunately, the weak Emperors of the late part of Dynasties, together with the Eunuchs' position in the Palace allows them accumulate power.

For the record, the guy that travelled all the way to East Africa as a "diplomatic mission" during the Ming Dynasty is an Eunuch, IIRC. The Ming Dynasty closed its doors soon after that mission because the Mandarins (not the Eunuchs) were isolationists.

This must also be taken into wider context. Ming China was suffering from internal troubles, and the attentions of the Court were diverted inwards to solve these problems. Also, the Ming Dynasty was founded after the overthrow of the Yuan (Mongolian) Dynasty. The Ming mentality is one of suspicion against "outsiders" - hence the reversal of policy from a more engaging (vis. Tang, Song) to a more protective one.

Finally - Imperial China fell behind the Europeans chiefly in the Qing (once again, "Foreign" Manchu) Dynasty, IMO. And possibilities of catching up were completely dashed by one extremely ambitious Dowager.

Anyway, that's how my (I'm Chinese, though not from China) history was taught.

Originally posted by Reboot


My my, doesn't that constitute virtual piracy? Why can't they just use the famous "turtle-boat" (Don't know the name) as the Korean UU? Replaces Ironclad... or maybe a very strong Frigate.

Click to expand...

While I to am suprised that they didnt use the Turtle boat, the Koreans DID innovate the use of rocket powered 'arrow artillery' The Koreans were known for their prowess with the bow and artillery (Most of which shot different 'arrow' type munitions). When the Koreans were vassals of the Chinese, tat appeared to be their prime contribution to the military. There's also a nifty device of theirs they used that utilized timed charges of gunpowder to propel sling bullets too, almost like an 'organ' cannon. I got to see a nifty movie clip of it in action once.

Originally posted by Reboot
The Chinese were ruled by Emperors. Eunuchs were like Chamberlains and Palace servants for the most part. Unfortunately, the weak Emperors of the late part of Dynasties, together with the Eunuchs' position in the Palace allows them accumulate power.

Click to expand...

Indeed. Eunuchs' original function is to help manage the affairs of the inner palace i.e. the imperial harem specifically. Normally each emperor will have 1000s of concubines (or so they say). As these are men and to prevent any dilly-dallying behind the emperor's back, they are castrated and hence trusted implicitly by the emperor since 1)they're not in genetic competition with the emperor, 2)won't leave behind descendants and accumulated powerbases and 3)usually in close intimate contact with the emperor, fr birth, since they manage the imperial family affairs.

For the record, the guy that travelled all the way to East Africa as a "diplomatic mission" during the Ming Dynasty is an Eunuch, IIRC. The Ming Dynasty closed its doors soon after that mission because the Mandarins (not the Eunuchs) were isolationists.

Click to expand...

Zheng He was not only an eunuch; he was also a Muslim eunuch. He was a very close confidant of the Yung Lo emperor and had served the emperor in numerous campaigns. The Yung Lo emperor had come to power by deposing the legitimate ruler, his nephew. One of the purported reasons for the Ming voyages is to investigate rumors that the real emperor had fled overseas and may return some day and rally ppl to his cause.

The isolationist policy set in after the Yung Lo emperor's demise was the result of a power struggle betw the eunuchs and the mandarins. The Chinese had a bad experience with foreigners during the preceding Mongol dynasty, and hence the xenophobic attitude, which remains somewhat till today.

This must also be taken into wider context. Ming China was suffering from internal troubles, and the attentions of the Court were diverted inwards to solve these problems. Also, the Ming Dynasty was founded after the overthrow of the Yuan (Mongolian) Dynasty. The Ming mentality is one of suspicion against "outsiders" - hence the reversal of policy from a more engaging (vis. Tang, Song) to a more protective one.

Click to expand...

The main item was that the Mongols had risen and become a threat again despite continual campaigns into the steppes. One emperor was even captured during one campaign. Thus the Chinese had to draw off resources fr their maritime front to their steppe borders.

Finally - Imperial China fell behind the Europeans chiefly in the Qing (once again, "Foreign" Manchu) Dynasty, IMO. And possibilities of catching up were completely dashed by one extremely ambitious Dowager.

Click to expand...

Only in the second half. The basis of Chinese civilisation is on stability and continuation. Hence it'd be much the same, even under a native dynasty. The Chinese simply couldn't deal with or handle the West, with their mentality.

Anyway, that's how my (I'm Chinese, though not from China) history was taught.

Click to expand...

So am I.

Say, you're quite close to me geographically, aren't you, Knight-Dragon?

I'm curiously left out "religious". The Chinese, despite not being really all that religious, nonetheless have one of the most resilient cultures. In CivIII game terms, I think of it as lots of flipping...

So, the Chinese really poses a problem to CivIII rules.

Originally posted by Tassadar
Chinese leader were eunuch, etc etc

Click to expand...

Every time you post, Tassadar, I wish I didn't have eyes. It's getting to the point where I'm considering tearing them out just so I don't have to read anymore of this...

I just wish you wouldn't run around talking about how you know everything about: computer programming, data structures, chinese history, civilization 3, analytical chemistry or whatever subject you're claiming to have advanced degrees in today, graphic design, human physiology, psychology, forensics, you name it - when it's obvious you know nothing about: computer programming, data structures, chinese history, civilization 3, analytical chemistry or whatever subject you're claiming to have advanced degrees in today, graphic design, human physiology, psychology, forensics, you name it.

Originally posted by Kilroy


Every time you post, Tassadar, I wish I didn't have eyes. It's getting to the point where I'm considering tearing them out just so I don't have to read anymore of this...

I just wish you wouldn't run around talking about how you know everything about: computer programming, data structures, chinese history, civilization 3, analytical chemistry or whatever subject you're claiming to have advanced degrees in today, graphic design, human physiology, psychology, forensics, you name it - when it's obvious you know nothing about: computer programming, data structures, chinese history, civilization 3, analytical chemistry or whatever subject you're claiming to have advanced degrees in today, graphic design, human physiology, psychology, forensics, you name it.

Click to expand...

But eunuch were burocrate so they were involve in political desicion, so i was right again, are you jalous or what about my knowledge. If chinese were not so illogical, they would have rule the entire world today, i am sorry for you, realy realy sorry.

All that i said here have never been refuted on subject you mention, i lead some discusion to more deeper understanding, so either you are eunuch or jalous, and posting BS about me can lead you to a ban, so be careful little jalous eunuch.

BTW i hope it is a barrier language, if not go to hell.

These "tribute missions" as the experdition were called are not profitiable at all and are causing a drain on the ming's resources.


The Ming gives Far more valuable goods than the tribute they recieve. Why do you think Zheng he and his Armada was welcome with open arms in places that know them ?

Freebies !!!





Foreign Merchants often posed as legitimate Envoys of thier respective countries and gets valuable gifts in exchange of less valuable "tributes"

Originally posted by Tassadar
may be off topic but...

China was the superpower just a few time before america discovery, their naval was much stronger than any europeen ones, they could have colonize the entire world before christph colomb time. So what happen ?

Chinese leader were eunuch ( testicle rip off, ouch) for reason i dont remember, and those eunuch beleive that china was the center of the world and decide to do not pay attention to other so call barbarian country, they decide to stop sea exploration ( political decision) and their knowledge in naval were lost within 100 year, and never catch up since that time.

Click to expand...

To be clearer look at my post.

Did china was a superpower ? yes

Did they get tech lead in naval ? yes

Were they able to colonize the world ? yes

Why not, political desicion ? yes

Were eunuch leader or burocrate who posses political control? yes

Do they lost there knowledge in naval after political desicion ? yes

So where is your problem again ? dont tell me blablabla, i want a yes or no and then why.

So if i did some impresicion, they are minor IMO. unsteed of posting BS about me, argue against what i said, and if i am wrong i will be happy to know. You realy piss me off this morning, and if you were close by me i ll teach you a lesson in good manner, beleive me.

Originally posted by GuangRong
These "tribute missions" as the experdition were called are not profitiable at all and are causing a drain on the ming's resources.

The Ming gives Far more valuable goods than the tribute they recieve. Why do you think Zheng he and his Armada was welcome with open arms in places that know them ?

Freebies !!!

Click to expand...

Urm, I doubt those Freebies cost Imperial China much. Sure, that's a lot. I mean, we're talking about Imperial China here - the biggest, meanest, richest country of its time, and all that wealth and clout is concentrated in the hands of the very elite few, so they can afford the expense.

If there's one thing I keep reminding myself about the past is that it is richer and more brilliant than we like to give it credit for. Lots of examples from modern archeology has given me this insight.