Some reflections on peaceful Deity culture victory

kb27787 whats that religious tolerance bug? Also, that Poland strategy sounds fun, but is there more detailed guilde how to do it ?

With religious tolerance social policy, a city with your pantheon as majority religion (generally, cities that were founded before your religion) that has your full religion as the 2nd most popular religion will get the pantheon effect doubled. Easy enough to do if you founded your cities, take the pantheon, then found religion and not spread it.
With this, generally it may be a good idea to found your religion in another city which is not your cap.
 
you get food without sacrificing hammers and while I find their max tourism might not go that high they have a pretty good hammer-science curve (meaning that you have hammers exactly the moment you get the tech... if science outpaces hammer then science is kinda useless) such that making decisions on what to build or what to use your routes for are rather easy.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand this concept. Forgive me, I'm probably being ******ed, but can you explain this as if you were explaining it to a beginner player? I have a feeling that the concept behind this piece of advice is somehow central to explaining my bad play.

Poland's tradition-piety hybrid is amazing awesome and fun to try out on some starts (as long as the religious tolerance abuse bug is still around anyway... have you ever seen double DF (+2 faith from desert tiles including floodplains or oasis) on a size 20 city? Now think about 3 such cities, and it becomes ridiculous. If you grow your cities really fast religion spread will not catch up and your cities can remain pagans for a looooong time, and usually until then you have your holy site network up) There's seriously no need for running guilds early or for hard-building those wonders if you have ~5 holy sites sitting around come industrial... (and you can Pisa out the 6th prophet and another from piety finisher... not to mention stealing enemy GP if the chance arises) and to top that off, you don't even need to finish rationalism to get GS from Glory of God. Poland is the only civ that can do that while still getting tradition's bonuses.

So the idea is to finish Tradition and then go into Piety? Does this strategy depend on getting an easy pantheon? You say 5 holy sites, but surely this means more than 5 prophets, since you use the first to found the religion and 2nd to enhance, right? Can you explain a bit more about this?

The reason is that so far, I've managed (while attempting to build towards a CV) to get a decent religion OR decent culture per turn. It seems that you're saying Piety is a great way of getting culture per turn because of the finisher, but if you're doing tradition first, won't it be a bit late?

Sorry to make you explain yourself. I'm sure most other people get it first time. :)
 
I'm sorry, I just don't understand this concept. Forgive me, I'm probably being ******ed, but can you explain this as if you were explaining it to a beginner player? I have a feeling that the concept behind this piece of advice is somehow central to explaining my bad play.



So the idea is to finish Tradition and then go into Piety? Does this strategy depend on getting an easy pantheon? You say 5 holy sites, but surely this means more than 5 prophets, since you use the first to found the religion and 2nd to enhance, right? Can you explain a bit more about this?

The reason is that so far, I've managed (while attempting to build towards a CV) to get a decent religion OR decent culture per turn. It seems that you're saying Piety is a great way of getting culture per turn because of the finisher, but if you're doing tradition first, won't it be a bit late?

Sorry to make you explain yourself. I'm sure most other people get it first time. :)

Well, let me put it this way: do not research techs in which you will have no immediate use. The stupidest thing to do is to, say, bulb a GS for ironworks if your cities are 10 turns away from finishing workshops for example, or get Acoustics for Sistine and opera houses when your empire desperately needs Circus Maximus.

Generally, when you work hammers (immediate result) you lose food (investment for future hammers) and vice versa, but Incas can have these amazing tiles which are, say 3-5 food and 2 hammers or something which allows small cities to get up to speed VERY fast, growing at lightning speed while still working high-production tiles. (a lot of times faster than their natural border expansion) I find that my satellites, if well placed, hardly slow down my national wonders at all so my capitol can build the wonders pretty much the time I get the tech.

If you play Magic the gathering or Hearthstone or some similar games, think of your hammers as your mana source, and your science as creatures or spells you play. Powerful cards (late game techs/wonders/WC stuff) require lots of mana (hammers, and city size in general); you can have a hand full of powerful cards but without the mana to cast it, you are screwed when facing early aggro. (you beelined and got education t80-90, but so what? It's useless if your capitol is size 8 without the gold or pop to work the science slots and take 15 turns for university... while your satellites are still size 5... in that case you'd be best to reach the tech 10 turns later and let your capitol grow a bit more)

Another example, say, you decide to play a "ramp deck" where you get a source of burst mana to cast something big (however, sometimes it is best to leave some mana untapped to be able to play instants/interrupts on the opponents' turn); I.E. you sell all your gpt to a friend for lump sum to rush-buy universities, even in your size 6-7 cities. 5 turns later and your non-friend neighbor shows up with his armies on your borders, and since lump sum cannot be traded to a non-friend, and your gpt is now zero, you cannot bribe him. You and your empire gets wiped out just for the sake of trying to hasten that win turn by a handful of turns.

Of course, you'd have the opposite problem where your hand is all lands without anything to cast with the mana. That would equate to having nothing to build because your are waiting for the tech you want. I find this tends to happen in late game a bit more; nothing left to build, with techs like electronics, atomic theory and whatnot while going peaceful. In which case you'd best to bulb GS around here just to not waste the hammers. etc.

So ideally, you'd want a nice curve (a mix of small and big cards with the small cards ideally being drawn early and the bigger cards being drawn exactly when you have the mana for it), the meaning in CIV is that that your cities' capacity is in a linear relationship with your tech rate such that you have the hammers exactly when you need it and you don't waste excess hammers building meaningless things when you could just be growing.
For SV, the hammer requirement is much lower than CV, with basically only the science buildings required, so you see most people beeline techs with reckless abandon because it's quite obvious what to build first and last. CV however, means you juggle between working farms for growing, and hammers for grand temple, hermitage, ironworks, circus maximus, troops, world wonders, archaeologists, factories, WF and IG etc. , while keeping enough "reserves" for emergencies (I like to keep some copies of my luxes, or gpt for bribes, or to trade for WLTKD/CS quests, or sometimes my friends will ask for a free lux copy which I usually will agree to, enabling me to keep the friendship to the end of the game despite ideologies, so don't sell everything just because you can!) so keeping the curve is crucial.

For Poland, just go like normal tradition with maybe piety opener/+faith from shrine temples if you need, and you get 3 free SP (one from entering Classical, Medieval, and Oracle) which is generally enough to have full tradition and religious tolerance by the time other civs finish tradition without Oracle for example (depends on if your pantheon gives culture or not). This strat kinda requires the pantheon to be faith-generating (preferably DF or tears of the gods/stone circles/other +2 faith pantheons) such that you can found religion without piety finisher.
 
i forget, Hotels and Airports say 50% tourism from improvements that produce culture. it says Maoi, Chateau, etc. does this apply to any improvement on a tile you are getting culture from a pantheon or UA? Japan has a jungle start bias plus culture bonus from worked water tiles and atolls. could they theoretically get tourism from the jungle pantheon and their water tiles?

i wouldnt count on this on deity, haha, but it sounds interesting to experiment with.

Yes, I believe that's the case.

I'm also required by law to say that with moai, the hotel and airport bonus is more than 50%. It seems to ramp up with the amount of culture coming off of the moia (so it's especially good with the 4-6 culture ones). Woot heads!
 
Thanks KB, your explanation really helped and gave me an insight into Civ that I didn't have before.

I used to play Magic and so understood your analogy with mana curve completely.

Although I used to play really low curve 1v1 Duel Commander decks aimed at T4-5 kills, and sadly there is no equivalent in Civ. I guess horse archers and battering rams before most people get their pantheon is the nearest equivalent! :lol:
 
Thanks KB, your explanation really helped and gave me an insight into Civ that I didn't have before.

I used to play Magic and so understood your analogy with mana curve completely.

Although I used to play really low curve 1v1 Duel Commander decks aimed at T4-5 kills, and sadly there is no equivalent in Civ. I guess horse archers and battering rams before most people get their pantheon is the nearest equivalent! :lol:

Sure. When rushing for early domination (like Cromagnus' Huns guide) you don't worry at all about long term growth or science and just rush with early game hammers, right? Horse archers certainly are easier on the hammers than national college or the like so it doesn't take a big city to build them. Same thing. (no need for a lot of mana if you're going to kill on t5) :lol:
 
This is not correct, finishing on the same turn does not has any influence on the outcome. If you promise to never do it again you break that promise with the next dig, even if it is in the same turn.
If you plan to steal more than one it is important not to promise otherwise. The diplomatic hit is a one-time thing and not that bad, breaking a promise, on the other hand, is.

If you make sure that all your artifacts come on the same turn, you will only be asked once. The AI doesn't ask you mid-turn.
 
Sure. When rushing for early domination (like Cromagnus' Huns guide) you don't worry at all about long term growth or science and just rush with early game hammers, right? Horse archers certainly are easier on the hammers than national college or the like so it doesn't take a big city to build them. Same thing. (no need for a lot of mana if you're going to kill on t5) :lol:

t5 is late for that, t2 is prefered :)
 
If you make sure that all your artifacts come on the same turn, you will only be asked once. The AI doesn't ask you mid-turn.
true, the AI does not ask you. It still considers you a traitor if you promise to never to it again (first artifact) and then get another (in the same turn).
 
Don't forget diplomats pressure. On Deity with non-power civs, they matter. More when an AI with another ideologies refuse to open their borders.
 
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