[Idea] Realistic City Siege

@TB

Yeah having defense vs different types of units would be great!

Note that the Arrow Slits can give defense to specific units already. For instance it has 50% Defense for Archery and 25% for Gunpowder.

Also could you make a "heal defense per turn" tag? I want to have this for the Nanowalls where they can slowly repair bombard damage even when being attacked.

hmm... that last one will be a bit tougher.

I could make a tag for a % adjustment to the recovery of defense in a city but it doesn't tally each building's individual recovery currently (the total recovers at a fixed rate currently and doesn't take into account the sources of the maximum defense level independently but as one pool.) So if I wanted to model what you're talking about it'd have to be something along the lines of 'recovers x% faster up to the iDefense level of the building'. If you then had overlapping buildings with this ability then what? Would it be: 'recovers x1 + x2% faster up do iDefense of building x + iDefense of building y?' I suppose that'd be the best way to model it...

Once I have integrity and hp on individual buildings and their defense not being bombardable without targeting the buildings themselves and the defense they offer to the city being equal to the amount of iDefense in a % equal to their 100 base (100%) hp then I'd be able to model this much easier by having those buildings have a much higher natural recovery rate that doesn't require the work of the citizens to rebuild it.

But if the first 'temporary' model is sufficient that probably wouldn't be too tough. (And a good idea too!) Someone brought up weaponized plants... a plant wall could be genetically engineered to rapidly grow under the given stimulus like a particular sound frequency and thus raised when attackers near and then also naturally recover at an awesome rate of speed. Might not provide a LOT of protection but a good supplemental defensive measure that could be planted around the city after advanced genetic engineering. (Maybe as a GeneticPunk building?)

Ok some posting for reference on my plans.

Walls (Defense)
Palisades = 20%
Earth Walls = 40%
Walls = 60%
High Walls = 80%
Barricades = 100%
Cement Barrier = 120%
Metamaterial Wall = 140%
Superstrong Alloy Wall = 160%
Megastrong Alloy Wall = 180%

Fences (Defense)
Barbed Wire Fence = 120%
Electric Fence = 140%
Wireless Electric Fence = 160%
Arcology Shielding = 180%
Advanced Shielding = 200%

Cannot Enter City
Palisades = 100% or Less
Earth Walls = 80% or Less
Walls = 60% or Less
High Walls = 50% or Less
City Gate = 40% or Less
Castle = 35% or Less
Castle Gate = 30% or Less
Star Fort = 25% or Less
Barricades = 20% or Less
Barbed Wire Fence = 18% or Less
Electric Fence = 16% or Less
Cement Barrier = 14% or Less
Metamaterial Wall = 12% or Less
Wireless Electric Fence = 10% or Less
Superstrong Alloy Wall = 8% or Less
Arcology Shielding = 6% or Less
Advanced Shielding = 4% or Less
Megastrong Alloy Wall = 2% or Less

Can you build enough defense with Palisades and Earth Wall that the total defense will be more than 100 (or 80)%? I doubt it out of my head. This making Palisades and Earth Wall useless regarding their "can't enter city" ability. Just because they are very old defense structures it doesn't mean they weren't effective in their times.
For example, a Barbed Fence is no match for todays tanks. Walls would be more effective to prevent them (and units) from entering a city.

Also, I think you need Fences earlier, too. Are Palisades not a fence? If not, you could have a Wooden Fence at Woodworking, a Mesh Wire Fence at... uhm... Metallurugy? Steel (but than it's very close to the Barbed Wire Fence)?

And since Superstrong Alloys Wall and Megastron Alloys Wall sound too similar, I'd prefered to rename one of them into Nanite Wall. I don't know if "Nanite" is a known word, but it was used in a game I used to play and Nanites are nano-scale robots that can intereact with each other for nearly unlimited purposes. I think ingame they are called Nanobots, so a Nanobot Wall would be fine, too.

@Faustmouse

Palisades = +20%
Frontier Outpost = +5%
Lookout Post = +5%
Tree Houses = +5%
Caves Dwelling = +50%
Neanderthal Caves = +50%
-------------------------
Total = 135%

So yes you can get over 100% if you have both Caves Dwellings and Neanderthal Caves.

Note all these buildings come before Earth Wall.

Hydromancerx said:

@Faustmouse

Palisades = +20%
Frontier Outpost = +5%
Lookout Post = +5%
Tree Houses = +5%
Caves Dwelling = +50%
Neanderthal Caves = +50%
-------------------------
Total = 135%

So yes you can get over 100% if you have both Caves Dwellings and Neanderthal Caves.

Note all these buildings come before Earth Wall.

Click to expand...

But extremely unlikely since you need the Vicinity requirements for the Caves and for Treehouses.

Even if it is unlikely it still is there in case. Not to mention any other unforeseen buildings in the future that could add to the defense.

ok.
And since the lack of siege weapons at those time it might be good if not every city can be uninvadeable.

Well the Log Ram comes at Warfare tech, which comes before Earth Walls (Megalith Construction). So yeah there could be a rare time when no one can get in. its very rare and very short. But its so early on it doesn't matter.

Ok, some goodies to play with on this project:
Take note of this update!

@TB

1. So is <iLocalRepel> a 0 or 1 type of tag? EDIT: Nevermind I see the code below.

2. For <iMinDefense> Lets say that it was 5% so for Advanced Shielding (4%) and or Less
Megastrong Alloy Wall (2%) we just should not add the tag to them (or have it like at 1%). And really I am thinking that the Shielding and Advanced Shielding should not even have it. Do you have stat suggestions for the Walls and Fences?

3. <iBuildingDefenseRecoverySpeedModifier> = Yay! I was also thinking should non wall buildings provide this too? Such as the Crane line of buildings. Not it would be a very small bonus if they did.

4. Oops! I should read better. <iCityDefenseRecoverySpeedModifier> is exactly what I was thinking. Good job man. We are on the same wave length. So yeah Cranes and Brick Mason, Carpenter's Workshop, Construction Firm would all fall under this category. Possibly even new buildings too. Like an Architect's Office or something. We might even be able to re-visit the building integrity stuff again. Such as with auto-build buildings that slow recovery.

5. <UnitCombatRepelAgainstModifiers> Now this seems very useful.

6. <UnitCombatDefenseAgainstModifiers> So this is like the opposite of the Arrow Slits? Rather than say Archer get a bonus being defenders its the attacking units that get a + or - to their attack on the city. Which could mean I guess we could simulate how post-gunpower units would do better than pre-gunpowerder units on Medieval or Older walls. Wow! so many possibilities! Nice job!

7. Are you going to make new schemas for me again or should I do it? Note I don't care either way.

1) Be gentle here with the modifiers. I'd suggest no higher than up to 50 (for now at least... down the road maybe more would work fine.)

2) Previously, we've discussed this in this conversation. I'm in favor of ranging from 5 - 50 or so throughout the walls line.

Note: I also planned a while ago to include an 'Ignores x% of city defenses' tag so having some units able to ignore what little remains of the city defenses that cannot be fully destroyed will compensate this. Nevertheless, up to 50% and cities won't be impossible to take... just enforces that the attackers actually have some quality - usually by the time my city raider promoted units are going in it's all too easy for them anyhow. This will allow us to balance that out some.

3 & 4) We don't recover much every round as it is so I would suggest some liberal application of these tags if you want to make them effective. What is it as a base, like 2-4 somewhere around there? So if it's 2% per round, a 100 on one of these tags would increase it to a whopping 4% a round. Not a huge adjustment so if they add up significantly, it'd be worthwhile.

5) Thanks

6) It's the defender that's modified based on the nature of the attacker. So for example, fences might make things harder for particularly mounted (by giving a positive number (as it influences the defender's values) and indicating mounted). Keep in mind with these that bombardment has no impact so its a permanent defense unless the building providing it is actually destroyed (at the moment we only have spies that can achieve this...) so we want to use it with some care and consideration.

7) Whichever of us gets to it first. The core schema has the changes so if you copy and paste it into one of your files, delete the old one and simply rename the new copy to the name of your deleted schema (replacing it) then copy paste it throughout your files it's a fairly quick job. I may have some time this week to address it but if you want to get to applying these tags, by all means have at 'er.

Tag that contains info about maximum defense level damage should only applied to non gunpowder siege units.

Ex Constantinople was undefeated until gunpowder was discovered and huge cannons destroyed its walls near completely but before gunpowder their walls was aprox harmless.

Castle shouldn't replace high walls but be another defense building like moat line

Nimek said:

Tag that contains info about maximum defense level damage should only applied to non gunpowder siege units.

Ex Constantinople was undefeated until gunpowder was discovered and huge cannons destroyed its walls near completely but before gunpowder their walls was aprox harmless.

Castle shouldn't replace high walls but be another defense building like moat line

Click to expand...

Just wanted to add a bit of detail; hope it's useful.

Constantinople, sieged by Mehmed the Conqueror, remained mostly immune to his attacks. To this end, he commissioned special monstrous cannons that were actually able to hurt the walls. The victory eventually came as a result of an amazing siege tower (Somebody here learned from Alexander), successful sea siege and moral combat. Plus, according to the text I read a while ago, extremely efficient spies and traitors.

Gunpowder alone was not enough. It would devastate inferior fortifications and cavalry troops, but not proper citadels like Constantinople.

Dissonance said:

Just wanted to add a bit of detail; hope it's useful.

Constantinople, sieged by Mehmed the Conqueror, remained mostly immune to his attacks. To this end, he commissioned special monstrous cannons that were actually able to hurt the walls. The victory eventually came as a result of an amazing siege tower (Somebody here learned from Alexander), successful sea siege and moral combat. Plus, according to the text I read a while ago, extremely efficient spies and traitors.

Gunpowder alone was not enough. It would devastate inferior fortifications and cavalry troops, but not proper citadels like Constantinople.

Click to expand...

So the walls had a strong Bombard Resistance - strong enough to make anything less than cannons fairly useless.

The iMinDefense tag represents how fortifications, even ones blasted to bits, as rubble alone can still be useful as a defensive barrier. If the defensive building itself is actually destroyed such as by a spy, even the iMinDefense is eliminated.

Eventually, I'd like to see iMinDefense be hiked up to something around 75% of the defensive building's value itself. This will then require that we use our siege to target and actually destroy each individual building to remove that building's defensive values. But I'll need to put in place the ability for siege to break down specific buildings in this way. I do have a plan on how to go about this... Perhaps I should make that happen a little sooner than later at this point.

I do think there's other things more important to develop at the moment though... So our current tags should be sufficient for a while.

@TB

So I am thinking for Walls and High Walls that even when destroyed they would work similar to an Earth Wall. So Earth Walls are 40% Defense. I am thinking maybe like ...

Thunderbrd said:

Pit Traps (Mining) = 10 Local Repel
Mechanical Traps (Machinery) = 20 Local Repel
Landmines (Mine Warfare) = 30 Local Repel
Booby Traps (Guerrilla Warfare) = 40 Local Repel
Robotic Traps (Military Robotics) = 50 Local Repel

Click to expand...

Pushed to the SVN.

Ancient Romans used bee swarms closed in clay pots and threw it to attacking city sieging enemy. It caused confusion in enemy soldiers and sometimes they decided to withdraw from battle.

War bees (cat figured out better name)
+ 20 local Repel

Call them "Bee Bombs" maybe? Cool idea. How about this ...

Bee Bombs
Cost: 50
Req Tech: Apiculture AND Pottery
Req Resource: Pottery
Req Building: Apiary
Obsolete: Explosives

• + 20 Local Repel

@hydro

Awesome