C2C - Wonder Civs

First of all, because I poke around at a lot of different games, I just want to ask if you were inspired to try this by Age of Empires 3? They had something very similar in the Asian Dynasties expansion, even down to calling them embasies. I'm not complaining on that point, just making an observation.

Secondly, and to be a balance to one of the more vocal voices in this arguement, I want to say that I'm really interested in this idea and seeing where you might take it. You're right; it's a very different direction than a lot of other mods have tried. I've played the FfH mods where each civ is very specific from the very start, and I've enjoyed them greatly. I'm not sure how exactly this direction will play out in-game, but I'm very interested to see what you can do with this.

Are you planning on making all of the 'embasies' great wonders, or will there also be a few that are national wonders? You could make a number of more 'generic' embasies that reflect not a specific people, but a type of culture. For example, you could make Nomadic Plains Dwellers, which could describe both the Mongols and the Lakota.

All in all, while there are some that will disagree with this direction for the mod, I think it does have a lot of possibilites, and I'm really looking forward to seeing where you take it next. Good luck, Hydro!

P.S. Do you think StrategyOnly could put a link back up to v11 for people who are adamantly against this direction, or is he hoping to win people over by having them try this out for themselves? I just ask because that was the last 'final build' that hadn't started moving this way.

In the spirit of bridging the gap to people whose opinions are similar to bill2505, how about this:

1) Existing named civs all get access to (the analogous new versions) of their original buildings/units automatically (slightly kludgy but very easy way to do this is for them to automatically get their own embassy). Better way is to make the units/buildings conditional on EITHER the embassy building or a 'hidden tech' which these civs get their own version of right from the start and which is not part of the research tree.

2) (game option) No cultural-trait embassy buildings (i.e. - the option would simply disable the new 'embassy' buildings and thus mean you only have the traits gievn by your civ via (1))

Just (1) alone would mean that the Greeks get phalanxs etc. Turning on the OPTION of (2) (personally I wouldn't, but I'm sure bill2505 would) would give you something very close to the old system (some buildings and units would have changed a bit but flavor-wise it would be similar).

I don't THINK any of this needs new code support, but if it does I'm sure I could provide something.

Nightguard said:

First of all, because I poke around at a lot of different games, I just want to ask if you were inspired to try this by Age of Empires 3? They had something very similar in the Asian Dynasties expansion, even down to calling them embasies. I'm not complaining on that point, just making an observation.

Secondly, and to be a balance to one of the more vocal voices in this arguement, I want to say that I'm really interested in this idea and seeing where you might take it. You're right; it's a very different direction than a lot of other mods have tried. I've played the FfH mods where each civ is very specific from the very start, and I've enjoyed them greatly. I'm not sure how exactly this direction will play out in-game, but I'm very interested to see what you can do with this.

Are you planning on making all of the 'embasies' great wonders, or will there also be a few that are national wonders? You could make a number of more 'generic' embasies that reflect not a specific people, but a type of culture. For example, you could make Nomadic Plains Dwellers, which could describe both the Mongols and the Lakota.

All in all, while there are some that will disagree with this direction for the mod, I think it does have a lot of possibilites, and I'm really looking forward to seeing where you take it next. Good luck, Hydro!

P.S. Do you think StrategyOnly could put a link back up to v11 for people who are adamantly against this direction, or is he hoping to win people over by having them try this out for themselves? I just ask because that was the last 'final build' that hadn't started moving this way.

Click to expand...

version 11? why the ones that want to play the mod with the original way as it was meant to be played!!!!!!!! have to play an older version and and you and some other minority group play new version with all the fixes and the updates . i dont understand you people. i will never like a game where there is a chance to see greece with janisarries
germany with zulu warriors and irish with redcoats and many will agree with me. second about the bridging the gap as you say cant be done . why ? let me give you an example.making both ways availiable in the same mod is nearly impossible .because there is going to be unbalances because you cannt blance the system for both ways(if you accomplish something like that without sacrificing anything from both ways its ok) i say again that this idea is good but for a second option. now the game more or less in in good state but needs a little work. why no make a 360 degrees turn now

possible solutions


1 chose on of the 2 .this is going to make many people unhappy specially if you chose the idea that you Nightguard want

2 create 2 mods. this is a bit time consuming

3 make now the mod as it stands ,fix the things that need fixing ,update the things that need update and when the mod is finished and you wont add something more then you can proceed as you wish to the other way so people can have both( i am just saying making this way as you wish but last (this is the sullution that trully will satisfy both ways
4 make a poll and let the people decide( there is the danger of people making double acounts just to vote but still is an option)


edit =
ottoman officer = my sultan .greeks are tearing us apart
sultan= what ??? our glorious army is is losing to them.our army is superior to them
o.o. = sir we had a complication .
sultan =??????
o.o. =the greeks have brought their secret weapon the famous janisiries soldiers and are tearing apart our armies
sultan= ??????? i thought that janisiries were christians that were abducted when they were young and raised to be loyal to islam and meee
o.o. = sir they ,they haveeeee build our embassy and that allowed them to recruit them.
sultan =??????
o.o=
sultan = build immediately the roman embassy. they use janisaries we will use the famous pretorians

@Nightguard

1. Yes Age of Empires 3 was an inspiration as well as the Civ5's City States idea. As for the name "Embassy" its the best word I could think of to represent a wonder where you get access to another civs cultural stuff. Original it was going to be their Unique Building(s) and Unique Units. But after going through the buildings much of them were either already in the game in some form or another or should be a general building (such as the Mall or Trading Post). The became Wonders since they wee obviously unique.

2. I have been brainstorming more and will post shortly other ideas I have on this. As SO said, just give me a chance. I may not be perfect but I do come up with some ideas that no one has tried before and I think re worth trying out.

3. Yes, at the moment they would be Great Wonders. Which would mean they would be limited to once city. Thus making each city like a mini nation. As for national wonders, they have not been worked out yet. Ideas are welcome. As for "Nomadic Plains Dwellers" well that really would depend upon your map wouldn't it? If say the Mongols started the game in the dense jungle then "Nomadic Plains Dwellers" would be weird no? I have a better idea I will propose soon.

4. Thank you for the support. I really do appreciate the encouragement. I mean really all of us working on C2C are doing it for fun. No one is paying us (though that would be nice if they were). Saying that I do appreciate the arguments too since the feed back allows me to adjust my original ideas. All in all the out some will probably be in the middle where its not as much as I originally intended it to be but not the same as it was either.

5. That's up to StrategyOnly, ask him. Every update has been drastically different fro the last. First Prehistoric Stuff, then Fake Resources then Space techs, then other techs, then new Civics, then Goods and now Embassy Wonders. As I have said before if you are unhappy with all this new stuff then go play RoM or AND they have the same base as C2C without all the extras. But I think all the extras and changes are what make C2C so awesome! Not only the stuff I add but the stuff all the C2C team adds.

@Koshling

1. I am not going to go that far however in my new idea I am going to make it much easier for say the Greeks to get the Greek Embassy first.

2. While normally I would agree to make this optional, its just too linked to everything else and would break the stuff that wold be interdependent with it.

3. If need be I will take out the old unique buildings all together if people are offended by them. But adding the old one back in is not going to happen.

I don't THINK any of this needs new code support, but if it does I'm sure I could provide something.

Click to expand...

4. Could you look into why Terrain Requirements in city vicinity do not work? For since if i put "Requires Jungle in City Vicinity" it shows up as a feature of a building but doesn't seem to take effect in game. Could you look into seeing why this is not working?

@bill2505

1. Is your whole problem with this a race thing? Having black units for white civs? If so you should just get over that. I mean the Tomahawk thrower looks like a Native American but all civs get this. We are graphics limited since we have no one who knows how to edit the models. Id we could make a Greek looking Impi we would. That being said think of the Embassies as representing the local culture in that city. One where the Zulu like along side the Greeks as a part of the Greek civilization.

2. As for the real Greeks they are not a single culture either. They are a mixture of say the first prehistoric peoples of Europe then the Mycenaean civilization then the Ancient Greeks then the Roman Empire, then the Byzantine Empire then the Ottoman Empire and so on. Not to mention each city in Ancient Greece each city was independent until it was united after being attacked by the Persians. Not to mention there are bunch of other cultures within Greece such as the Romani (aka Gypsys) and of course religions ranging from the old Hellenistic to Christian to Islamic and everything else modern Greece is. In short no culture is just one culture. Its made up of different cultures throughout its history.

4 make a poll and let the people decide( there is the danger of people making double acounts just to vote but still is an option)

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3. This is not a democracy when it comes to mod making. Anyone can make a mod if they spend some time learning how to do it. If you are unhappy with this go make your own mod. I am not here to do stuff based on polls. Sure I welcome feedback and collaborating ideas with the rest of the team, but when it comes down to it. I am going to peruse new things because I personally want to play the game how I imagine it to be. Sometimes people love it and sometimes they don't. But stopping me before I have finished what I have been trying to do is not cool. Especially when things have not been tested or balanced yet. Who knows when it finished you may actually like it better than the old ways. And really if I made everything optional like Afforess tried to do I would be totally restrained from trying new things.

4. I would tweak one thing ...

Sultan = Good thing we allied with the Roman Embassy. Their famous Praetorians will fight for us and defeat the evil Greek Janissaries.

Hydromancerx said:

@Koshling

4. Could you look into why Terrain Requirements in city vicinity do not work? For since if i put "Requires Jungle in City Vicinity" it shows up as a feature of a building but doesn't seem to take effect in game. Could you look into seeing why this is not working?

Click to expand...

Sure. Won't be until next week as I'm currently snowed under back-porting the performance mods into the AND base for Afforres. However, I will look into it next week.

Ok now for my new ideas. Basically they would be "Culture" buildings. Note that's just the word I am using since I have not got a better one for it. The Culture Buildings come in different flavors. All will be dirt cheap to build and available at "Cultural Identity" tech.

Terrain

Terrain culture buildings are based upon the environment your city finds itself. If its a coastal city then it will unlock Culture (Coastal), if its a river city it will unlock Culture (River), etc. These in turn will speed up the building time of embassies that originate from the same type of terrain. For instance if you have Culture (Flood Plains) then you can build the Egyptian Embassy faster. Or if you have Culture (Plains) then you can build the Mongolian Embassy faster.

- Culture (Coastal)
- Culture (Desert)
- Culture (Forest)
- Culture (Flood Plains)
- Culture (Grassland)
- Culture (Jungle)
- Culture (Mountain)
- Culture (Plains)
- Culture (River)
- Culture (Swamp)
- Culture (Tundra)

Civilization

Civilization culture are based upon the civilization you choose in the beginning. Not only will the Greeks be able to build the Greek Embassy faster than other civs but they also will be able to build other related Embassies like the Roman Embassy faster than say the Japanese could. Examples ...

- Culture (Greek)
- Culture (Japanese)
- Culture (Zulu)

Religion

Religious culture is based upon the religions you have in your city. For instance if you have Naghualism in your city then you can build the Aztec Embassy faster. Examples ...

- Culture (Islam)
- Culture (Judaism)
- Culture (Naghualism)

------------

Note that these culture buildings can potentially have other uses such as the Culture (Tundra) giving a free Arctic I promotion. In addition other categories beyond terrain, civilization and religion could be added. Such as wonders that boost build time such as the Great Wall boosts the Chinese Embassy build time or the opposite where the Chinese Embassy boosts the build time of the Great Wall. Really the possibilities are endless.

Hydromancerx said:

@Nightguard


@bill2505

1. Is your whole problem with this a race thing? Having black units for white civs? If so you should just get over that. I mean the Tomahawk thrower looks like a Native American but all civs get this. We are graphics limited since we have no one who knows how to edit the models. Id we could make a Greek looking Impi we would. That being said think of the Embassies as representing the local culture in that city. One where the Zulu like along side the Greeks as a part of the Greek civilization.

2. As for the real Greeks they are not a single culture either. They are a mixture of say the first prehistoric peoples of Europe then the Mycenaean civilization then the Ancient Greeks then the Roman Empire, then the Byzantine Empire then the Ottoman Empire and so on. Not to mention each city in Ancient Greece each city was independent until it was united after being attacked by the Persians. Not to mention there are bunch of other cultures within Greece such as the Romani (aka Gypsys) and of course religions ranging from the old Hellenistic to Christian to Islamic and everything else modern Greece is. In short no culture is just one culture. Its made up of different cultures throughout its history.



3. This is not a democracy when it comes to mod making. Anyone can make a mod if they spend some time learning how to do it. If you are unhappy with this go make your own mod. I am not here to do stuff based on polls. Sure I welcome feedback and collaborating ideas with the rest of the team, but when it comes down to it. I am going to peruse new things because I personally want to play the game how I imagine it to be. Sometimes people love it and sometimes they don't. But stopping me before I have finished what I have been trying to do is not cool. Especially when things have not been tested or balanced yet. Who knows when it finished you may actually like it better than the old ways. And really if I made everything optional like Afforess tried to do I would be totally restrained from trying new things.

4. I would tweak one thing ...

Sultan = Good thing we allied with the Roman Embassy. Their famous Praetorians will fight for us and defeat the evil Greek Janissaries.

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as you wish ..this is your mod. i wont complain anymore
i wont say anything about 1 and 2 because sure they gone to ban me. i am not racist i just want when i chose a civ play that civ exactly not play with greeks and after a while ally with a nation that may not even exist in the game .

LOOK this is your mod and you are going to decide how you want it to be and if you want so much this way its your mod. but next time leave the bullhorsehockys about RACISM and if the greek culture is truly greek or a mixture of other culture because i dont have to apologise about something somewhere where i am right and i just want to play the game as it was meant to be played where when i deside to play aciv i want play with that civ and not with the greco turkish civ or americanofrance civ.leave aside that the idea is truly STUPID next time find good arguments to justifiy your idea and not calling me racist because then you call all the community members racist because i dont want anything more that play this game as it was mean to be played as the the rest that bought this game .but dont worry . i thing the company that makes this game will HIRE the one who thought about this idea for the next civ 6 ( to destroy it even more)
the reason i get mad is not because i am racist or because i am a spoiled rat but because you find unbelievable and cannot understand that someone would want to play the game as it was ment to be PLAYED(how bad and racist people have became these day) .i give up . if you want to destroy this mod by creating a civilazation salat then its your choise but next time find better arguments please . i will say nothing more on this mater. if i am racist because i want greeks to be greeks ,romans to be romans and ..... yes i am a racist
about the embassy alliance thing i admit that you are right. it is truth that many time the greek goverment have allaid with the turkish embassy to destroy those turkish barbarians .it is wide know that greece could not get her Independence before 1821 because they hadnt build(you can use the word allied if you want ) turkish embassy

Hydro, I really want this idea to work. It makes much more sense to build your "culture" as you go. However I think you should try and make it as modular as possible.

I still think you should only be able to build "embassies" to regions and nations you have already met. This could be done using a small bit of python that gives you a free "met nation" building.

Also you should make more use of the animals. Especially when I get the spawning of animals better sorted. IE only get wild horses in regions where there are horse.

bill2505 said:

the reason i get mad is not because i am racist or because i am a spoiled rat but because you find unbelievable and cannot understand that someone would want to play the game as it was ment to be PLAYED(how bad and racist people have became these day) .i give up . if you want to destroy this mod by creating a civilazation salat then its your choise but next time find better arguments please . i will say nothing more on this mater. if i am racist because i want greeks to be greeks ,romans to be romans and ..... yes i am a racist

Click to expand...

Hey, you obviously have strong feelings about this, and that's fine. You like the game the way it was originally envisioned and designed by Firaxis, and the way a lot of people choose to mod it. Hydro has chosen to try something that most of the modders have chosen to stay away from. This new method he is trying could be rather complicated to implement, but it could prove to provide new and interesting play experiences.

I don't believe Hydro ever said that he doesn't believe people want to play the game the way it was originally designed by Firaxis. He simply said that he's interested in playing a game where a civilization's cultural development is flexible, reacting to the world around them. He's chosen a direction he'd like to mod in, and I can only assume that he's discussed this with the other modders for C2C and found them to be in agreement. Not a right decision or a wrong decision, just a personal choice. Hopefully we can all drop the ad hominem arguements at that.

Also, as a possible option, I'd like to offer one suggestion that might work as a compromise. In other mods, I've seen people attach traits to not only leaders, but also to nations. It might be possible to have a 'civ culture' trait attached to each of the nations that gives a significant bonus to constructing the culture or embasy buildings associated with the civilization. Perhaps you might be able to find someone who could do that as a mod-mod or toggle-able option, Bill?

@HydromancerX

Okay, your (culture) buildings were actually much like what I was thinking of with the 'minor embasies' as national wonders I was suggesting. I definitely agree that some kind of second-rate promotion or minor city bonus would be worth including in buildings like those. I'm just curious if you have a way of limiting a city to only having one 'location culture' or 'nationality culture'? Otherwise, it would be possible for a coastal city to spam coastal+river+grassland culture, and possibly a few others. I've never seen anyone do mutually exclusive buildings in a mod, and that's something I'd really love to see incorporated here.

The other thought I have is possibly revisiting leaderheads now that each nationality is becoming more generic at the outset and being defined through in-game choices. There are a number of leaderheads for different nationalities that have the same promotions. The Charismatic/Humanitarian pairing shows up a number of times, as does Expansive/Imperialistic. Do you think there is a possibility that you or one of the other modders would add more diversity into the leaderheads' traits? I'd love to see a few more leaders with the Nomadic or Seafaring traits.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Hydro, I really want this idea to work. It makes much more sense to build your "culture" as you go. However I think you should try and make it as modular as possible.

I still think you should only be able to build "embassies" to regions and nations you have already met. This could be done using a small bit of python that gives you a free "met nation" building.

Also you should make more use of the animals. Especially when I get the spawning of animals better sorted. IE only get wild horses in regions where there are horse.

Click to expand...

1. Me too whats why we are having this discussion before we continue.

2. That's the idea to have culture as you go. Remember the embassies will be available at different techs such as the Sumerian will be available very early (maybe Sedentary Lifestyle or Agriculture) while say the American empire will not be available until the late Renaissance Era (where the Colonial Age would be).

3. As side from the merged Unique Buildings the rest should be modular. You can even see I have it in its own mod within the Hydro folder.

4. Again how would you meet non-playable embassies like "Mars Colony Embassy" or "Neanderthal Embassy" or "Tupi Embassy"?

5. The idea with these "Culture" builds would be since they are the new Unique Buildings the assimilation mod has some use since if you say take over a Japanese city then you can build a Japanese Embassy much faster (if its not already built). Which would not need any python stuff.

6. What do you mean by the animal unit comment?

Nightguard said:

Hey, you obviously have strong feelings about this, and that's fine. You like the game the way it was originally envisioned and designed by Firaxis, and the way a lot of people choose to mod it. Hydro has chosen to try something that most of the modders have chosen to stay away from. This new method he is trying could be rather complicated to implement, but it could prove to provide new and interesting play experiences.

I don't believe Hydro ever said that he doesn't believe people want to play the game the way it was originally designed by Firaxis. He simply said that he's interested in playing a game where a civilization's cultural development is flexible, reacting to the world around them. He's chosen a direction he'd like to mod in, and I can only assume that he's discussed this with the other modders for C2C and found them to be in agreement. Not a right decision or a wrong decision, just a personal choice. Hopefully we can all drop the ad hominem arguements at that.

Also, as a possible option, I'd like to offer one suggestion that might work as a compromise. In other mods, I've seen people attach traits to not only leaders, but also to nations. It might be possible to have a 'civ culture' trait attached to each of the nations that gives a significant bonus to constructing the culture or embasy buildings associated with the civilization. Perhaps you might be able to find someone who could do that as a mod-mod or toggle-able option, Bill?

@HydromancerX

Okay, your (culture) buildings were actually much like what I was thinking of with the 'minor embasies' as national wonders I was suggesting. I definitely agree that some kind of second-rate promotion or minor city bonus would be worth including in buildings like those. I'm just curious if you have a way of limiting a city to only having one 'location culture' or 'nationality culture'? Otherwise, it would be possible for a coastal city to spam coastal+river+grassland culture, and possibly a few others. I've never seen anyone do mutually exclusive buildings in a mod, and that's something I'd really love to see incorporated here.

The other thought I have is possibly revisiting leaderheads now that each nationality is becoming more generic at the outset and being defined through in-game choices. There are a number of leaderheads for different nationalities that have the same promotions. The Charismatic/Humanitarian pairing shows up a number of times, as does Expansive/Imperialistic. Do you think there is a possibility that you or one of the other modders would add more diversity into the leaderheads' traits? I'd love to see a few more leaders with the Nomadic or Seafaring traits.

Click to expand...

as i have said many time this is not my mod and thats why i dont make demands but when i suggest something that for the vanilla game and the rest 99% mods is the truth and someone calls me racist and start making discussions if the the greek culture is a blent of other cluture then yes i will get a bit mad of course if it is his choise then yes he has the right to do as he wish but i will never understand why someone would like to play with turkish apache nation

Nightguard said:

... I've never seen anyone do mutually exclusive buildings in a mod, and that's something I'd really love to see incorporated here.

Click to expand...

Ah, then you have not been paying attention. This mechanic has been in RoM for quite awhile. I admit is only used with some wonders

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Ah, then you have not been paying attention. This mechanic has been in RoM for quite awhile. I admit is only used with some wonders

Click to expand...

Really? I missed this somehow. It is possible to do this with buildings that aren't wonders; that is, make it so you can only build one building out of a given 'class' of buildings? As you already know, my knowledge of CIV modding is (extremely) limited at present.

Hydromancerx said:

5. The idea with these "Culture" builds would be since they are the new Unique Buildings the assimilation mod has some use since if you say take over a Japanese city then you can build a Japanese Embassy much faster (if its not already built). Which would not need any python stuff.

6. What do you mean by the animal unit comment?

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5) As I said no or trivial python on first meet nation get free "met civ". The advantage here is that it is even more flexible because you don't get to meet civs that are not in your particular game so those units and buildings are not available that time you play.

6a) If animals are unique by region, ie only spawn where there is an appropriate resource either as that animal or one of the animals that prey on them; then we have another area of uniqueness we can build on.

6b) As suggested elsewhere I would like to build cultural buildings built by animals. Tiger builds Asian (North, East or South) cultural building of some sort, Horse lets you build "Steppe" cultural building.

Nightguard said:

@HydromancerX

Okay, your (culture) buildings were actually much like what I was thinking of with the 'minor embasies' as national wonders I was suggesting. I definitely agree that some kind of second-rate promotion or minor city bonus would be worth including in buildings like those. I'm just curious if you have a way of limiting a city to only having one 'location culture' or 'nationality culture'? Otherwise, it would be possible for a coastal city to spam coastal+river+grassland culture, and possibly a few others. I've never seen anyone do mutually exclusive buildings in a mod, and that's something I'd really love to see incorporated here.

The other thought I have is possibly revisiting leaderheads now that each nationality is becoming more generic at the outset and being defined through in-game choices. There are a number of leaderheads for different nationalities that have the same promotions. The Charismatic/Humanitarian pairing shows up a number of times, as does Expansive/Imperialistic. Do you think there is a possibility that you or one of the other modders would add more diversity into the leaderheads' traits? I'd love to see a few more leaders with the Nomadic or Seafaring traits.

Click to expand...

1. I figured you were on a similar thought path when you mentioned Age of Empire 3. But rather than say making Spanish superior to Tupi my idea makes all civs on a level playing field no matter if their civs was historic a small village or a vast empire. They should have the potential to be equal in this game timeline.

2. There is code that can stop you from building another building in a city if the 1st building is already present. Thus we could always have each city allow for only one type of culture or even one of each type of category terrain/religion/civilization.

3. On another tangent we could have national or even free buildings in the way the "goods" system works. For instance building a national wonder that gives a free Embassy to every city. If linked to say the limitation code then you could always have it where only one national wonder could be built in the city. And if you link it to say the Palace then it would exist only one in the entire nation.

For example lets say you choose to build the "Greek National Wonder" it could give you the "Greek Embassy" wonder in every city. Note you would not even have to be playing as the Greeks to do this. Note the same could be done for a non playable civ such as the "Neanderthal Embassy". Note this is just an idea of how a national wonder could work.

4. In the long run I would like to apply the Dynamic Trait System the leader heads. Thus making your play style dictate your civilization as well as your leader.

Nightguard said:

Really? I missed this somehow. It is possible to do this with buildings that aren't wonders; that is, make it so you can only build one building out of a given 'class' of buildings? As you already know, my knowledge of CIV modding is (extremely) limited at present.

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It is the Coperncus Observatory, Newtons College and one other that can't all be built in the same city.

Yes it applies to any building or maybe building class. I have not looked at that part of the XML for awhile.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

5) As I said no or trivial python on first meet nation get free "met civ". The advantage here is that it is even more flexible because you don't get to meet civs that are not in your particular game so those units and buildings are not available that time you play.

6a) If animals are unique by region, ie only spawn where there is an appropriate resource either as that animal or one of the animals that prey on them; then we have another area of uniqueness we can build on.

6b) As suggested elsewhere I would like to build cultural buildings built by animals. Tiger builds Asian (North, East or South) cultural building of some sort, Horse lets you build "Steppe" cultural building.

Click to expand...

5) But what about civilizations that are not available to play ever? Ones that could have an embassy but not a playable civilization. What you might call a "Minor Civ".

6a) Ah you mean besides city vicinity limitations. I see what you mean.

6b) I think those ideas should be in addition to the embassy or cultural buildings. Such as the Horse allowing for on the one hand maybe a Mongolian Steppe related building while on the other hand a Lakota Great Plains related building as Nightguard suggested.

bill2505 said:

i will never understand why someone would like to play with turkish apache nation

Click to expand...

Well in Age of Empires 3 you could play as the Ottomans and build an Embassy with the Apache. It was rather cool.

Hydromancerx said:

5.



Well in Age of Empires 3 you could play as the Ottomans and build an Embassy with the Apache. It was rather cool.

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i can understand that but here we talk about different games . also in the game from what i remember you had a map where numerous native american triber exist and if your build an embassy you could recruit the units as mercenaries (not main units) .in history for many reason native american tribes were taking sides in the english ,french ,american wars . but seeing other nation do this will be alot wierd
¨ you could play as the Ottomans and build an Embassy with the Apache. It was rather cool ¨ you could accoplice that by making unit recruited from cities that you have conquered which will be more realistic and accurate instead of making a civ salat .its the same thing except if you want badly to use the embassy concept

Just curious here, bill... Would you feel the same if we 'filed the numbers off'? If instead of saying that your Greek nation was recruiting Jannisaries, they simply had a building that allowed you to raise and train an elite unit of arquebusiers? It seems like your concern is that we'd be mixing everything up into one pot, heaping one culture with another, etc. I could be misinterpreting things, but I think Hydro's thoughts are more that your Greek nation might develop an elite heavy infantry unit in one game like they did in actual history, and in another game, they might develop a specialized cavalry fighting technique if the resources and circumstances presented themselves. The use of the 'embasy' naming is more like a shorthand for what nation or culture in our real history actually developed such units.

Of course, given his interest in seeing the opportunity to ally with 'minor civs' such as the names given to various barbarian cities in Civ currently, I could be mistaken. I'm just curious if removing the real world history from the examples changes anyone's opinions on the idea.

@bill2505 & Nightguard

Well I am trying to make it so its not giving any type a civ of an advantage. We could just as well have the Apache civ making an embassy with the Ottomans and then produce Janissary units. Remember in out games there is no possible way to make it play out exactly like it did non Earth. This is not suppose to be a replication of history but a way to play a civilization in the world that happens to be in the world of that specific game.

We want to make it so you can have some games where the timelines are very similar to history while others are completely different from history. Its all depends upon how you play and what situations play out with the terrain, AI and random events.

At the core of this concept is not what civ you pick to play but how you choose to play the game. I hope you guys understand that. Because really Iam seriously thinking of just naming each civ like Blue, Red, Yellow, etc so people don't get so hung up about the civilization name.

Its all about the "What If" factor.