SGOTM 05 - Geezers

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 5 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
You are Temujin, Leader of the Mongolian Hordes. You have tired of fighting the Barbarians, and so this time you have decided to join them instead. You will win a glorious victory in this Monarch game, of course, but you are teamed with the Barbarians, and you have to adapt to Barbarian assets and liabilities:

• You have no starting techs.
• The barbs are your friends, and are fighting on your team.
• You will benefit from the Barbarian capability to explore the world in animal and human form.
• You can research, but you will also learn techs that the Barbarians learn.
• .... And you start off at war with everyone on the planet except the Barbarians. You can make peace with anyone.

The Objective
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of July 25.

I propose that you aim to complete this game in three months, that is by the end of October 2007.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Temujin of Mongolia
Rivals - 7: China, Japan, India, Arabia, Spain, Persia and Greece
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Special, sort of a fractal archipelago
Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Raging, and teamed with the Mongols
Permanent Alliances - Not Enabled
City Razing - Enabled

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards will depend on the number of teams.
  
• All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve victories in the least turns.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game

Reporting for duty, team!

I have BTS installed now, and so my vanilla CIV is patched up to 1.74.
Looks like we have to apply a special HOF mod, and not the 1.74.001 that is the latest one on the HOF MOD page. (unless my eyes deceive me)

Seems we have a couple of days for discussion before the saves arrive.
Having reported in, I'm actually off to bed soon, as it's midnight here.

It's midday here. Who's in charge here? What do we do next? Let's get this show on the road.

Hi all, checking in.

erikthecelt has asked if we are ok with him signing up to be a dedicated Geezer lurker (he posted this request in the HOF forum). Seems fine to me, anyone have any problem with it?

I have not begun to think about this scenario, been pretty focused on G-Major 13. Just submitted my 5th win today. Been steadily improving, I am hoping for a podium position .

However, I don't have time for another try, so its time to switch gears to SGOTM 05. So, here is a thought... in SGOTM 01, we won laurels because we didn't follow the herd. In that session, almost all teams went for Dom. However, we went Diplo, and on that particular map, this turned out to be a good play. I'm wondering if we should try something similar. I'm guessing many teams will go Dom/Conquest, because warmongering is often the fastest way to win. However, given this is a Gyathaar special map, maybe it is set up to make that hard (e.g. islands). Diplo will be impossible since we start at war, but maybe we go for fast culture? Something to think about.

Anyhow, there is time before we start, and we have a long time to finish (Oct.). I'd suggest we take our time early on to make sure we are aligned on strategy.

Looking forward to another go with the Geezers! Remember, Barron's is behind us!

Checking in for another game.

AgedOne said:

I have BTS installed now

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Swine. My copy seems to have delayed by the weather problems.

Turn 1: 4000 BC - 3130 BC
Turn 2: 3130 BC - 2500 BC
Turn 3: 2500 BC - 1900 BC
Turn 4: 1900 BC - 1300 BC
Turn 5: 1300 BC - 850 BC
Turn 6: 850 BC - 565 BC
Turn 7: 565 BC - 400 BC
Turn 8: 400 BC - 250 BC
Turn 9: 250 BC - 100 BC
Turn 10: 100 BC - 50 AD
Turn 11: 50 AD - 170 AD
Turn 12: 170 AD - 320 AD
Turn 13a: 320 AD - 395 AD
Turn 13b: 395 AD - 470 AD
Turn 14: 470 AD - 650 AD
Turn 15: 650 AD - 800 AD
Turn 16: 800 AD - 935 AD
Turn 17: 935 AD - 1085 AD
Turn 18: 1085 AD - 1154 AD
Turn 19: 1154 AD - 1214 AD
Turn 20: 1214 AD - 1274 AD
Turn 21: 1274 AD - 1340 AD
Turn 22: 1340 AD - 1400 AD
Turn 23: 1400 AD - 1460 AD
Turn 24: 1460 AD - 1520 AD
Turn 25: 1520 AD - 1550 AD
Turn 26: 1550 AD - 1580 AD
Turn 27: 1580 AD - 1610 AD
Turn 28: 1610 AD - 1643 AD
Turn 29: 1643 AD - 1673 AD
Turn 30: 1673 AD - 1700 AD
Turn 31: 1700 AD - 1730 AD
Turn 32: 1730 AD - 1750 AD
Turn 33: 1750 AD - 1770 AD
Turn 34: 1770 AD - 1790 AD
Turn 35: 1790 AD - 1810 AD
Turn 36: 1810 AD - 1820 AD
Turn 37: 1820 AD - 1840 AD
Turn 38: 1840 AD - 1860 AD
Turn 39: 1860 AD - 1880 AD
Turn 40: 1880 AD - 1899 AD
Turn 41: 1899 AD - 1910 AD
Turn 42: 1910 AD - 1930 AD
Turn 43: 1930 AD - 1950 AD
Turn 44: 1950 AD - 1970 AD
Turn 45: 1970 AD - 1982 AD
Turn 46: 1982 AD - 1990 AD (Last)

The-Hawk said:

Hi all, checking in.

erikthecelt has asked if we are ok with him signing up to be a dedicated Geezer lurker (he posted this request in the HOF forum). Seems fine to me, anyone have any problem with it?

Click to expand...

No objection from me. I'm assuming he knows this means he can't look at other games? However he needs to post this request in the signup thread so that AlanH knows.

The-Hawk said:

So, here is a thought... in SGOTM 01, we won laurels because we didn't follow the herd. In that session, almost all teams went for Dom. However, we went Diplo, and on that particular map, this turned out to be a good play. I'm wondering if we should try something similar. I'm guessing many teams will go Dom/Conquest, because warmongering is often the fastest way to win. However, given this is a Gyathaar special map, maybe it is set up to make that hard (e.g. islands). Diplo will be impossible since we start at war, but maybe we go for fast culture? Something to think about.

Click to expand...

A modified reprise of SGOTM 01 in other words? Interesting thought, especially since we can make peace with the other civs.

Checking in.

Welcome to our new members !

No objection from me if erikthecelt likes to be dedicated lurker.

I have not yet ordered BTS. After the buggy release of the Vanilla version I always wait for some reports first. If I order it at amazon Germany I can get it within 24 hours, but I am not that keen, yet to get it.

I also tried a little more on G-Major 13, but I did not get another suitable map, so I gave up yesterday.

Culture sounds interesting. I cannot remember even trying a culture win, yet. I think I read that we would need at least 6 cities. Obviously Great Artists will be needed. I will have a look at that in the evening.

Anybody played the test map that was posted in the pre-discussion thread ?

The-Hawk said:

erikthecelt has asked if we are ok with him signing up to be a dedicated Geezer lurker (he posted this request in the HOF forum). Seems fine to me, anyone have any problem with it?

Click to expand...

No problems at all with erikthecelt. (We are becoming ever more the International Geezers, aren't we? USA, UK, NZ and now Canada.)

Sam_Yeager said:

Swine. My copy seems to have delayed by the weather problems.

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Oh wow. Which bit of our flooded land are you located? We've got some rather wet areas near us, but I am, luckily, the geezer who lives on the hill.
Hope it arrives soon. I've had a bit of a play over the weekend. Some very interesting additions. (Espionage )

markh said:

Anybody played the test map that was posted in the pre-discussion thread ?

Click to expand...

Yes. I've been playing about with the test game a bit. Now, where are my notes? I'll post again in a few minutes when I can retrieve them.

Right! Here goes on my first findings, having played through at least some of the trial game a few times.
I've tried to organise my random and scrambled notes into some kind of rational order.
Apologies for the huge post!

Right from the off

• We know everyone.
• You are at war with everyone, and they all (initially) refuse to talk.
• We have no technologies.

Scores etc

• You can't see the barbarians on the scoreboard or the Foreign Advisor screen.
• You can't see ourselves on the scoreboard (!)
• You can find ourselves in the Victory Conditions screen. We are there as 'Temujin/Barbarian', but always have 0 score.

Aye Carumba!

• As previously noted, the test game crashed in flames as soon as we discovered Alphabet. I avoided this in subsequent attempts.

Animal Times

• Animals started appearing from turn 6.
• You can immediately see the bits of the map where the animals are walking, which aids exploration (in an interestingly random manner). Of course, they will not enter other civs borders, and only appear in parts of the world where there is some fog of war.
• Animals do not, of course, attack our units.
• We can share a square with an animal. We can walk with lions, but it's kind of frustrating, since they are stupid and won't go when we want to go.

Goody Huts

• We cannot pop huts by walking into them.
• However, huts can still be popped by expanding borders, or by settling a city beside one.
• If you really want to, you can pillage a hut (perhaps to stop someone else getting it when you can't)

AI Relationships

• As I said previously, no AI will talk to us at the start.
• The less aggressive AIs will start talking after about 8 turns. Asoka was the first in the test game.
• The AI attitude gets progressively worse over time.
• Soon they are mostly at -11 or so.
• Even from -11, Alexander suddenly appeared to offer us peace!
• It is quite possible to make peace with the AI, and they get peace with the Barbarians, too, of course.

Barbarians as allies

• Normally, barbarians avoid our borders, despite our 'teamed' status.
• (However, in one game a bear appeared within our borders! It couldn't cope with this situation, and remained stationary until it vanished some time later)
• We cannot enter diplomacy with the barbarians. They do not appear on the Foreign advisor screen.
• The first barbarians (human, not animal) started appearing about turn 49.
• The first barbarian cities appeared about turn 80.
• The barbs attack AI indiscriminately, and lose most of the time. We don't see the battle - just the sudden disappearance of the units.
• Barbarians do tech, though not at any great speed.
• We get their techs, and they get ours.
• Once they have cities, we can enter their City Management screens. From here, we can see what they are researching (although we can't change it)

OK. I might have got some of this wrong, or missed something important, but that was everything I noted.

Strategic thoughts

• Having the barbarians as allies is interesting, but not massively useful. They allow us to see lots of random, scattered parts of the map, and the AI movements there, that wouldn't have been available in a normal game.
• You can't stop the barbs & animals behaving in their usual stupid manner.
• You can decide to research different parts of the tech tree from the barbs, thus sharing your research.
• We can bring the barbs up to the point where they have (e.g) axes earlier than they would normally have them. This can provide the AI with an irritating diversion.
• Depending on the map layout, there may be several AIs who don't have barbarians near them (due to lack of FOW, I guess). This means we won't see anything of them, and can't use barb attacks against them.
• It's worth considering ignoring the barbarians as useful military allies. They are sooo bad.

AgedOne said:

Oh wow. Which bit of our flooded land are you located? We've got some rather wet areas near us, but I am, luckily, the geezer who lives on the hill.

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Thankfully I'm not directly affected by the floods. However a number of train lines and roads were closed by the weather which delayed the post. However BTS was delivered whilst I was at work today.

Bang goes a large part of the evening.

Hmmm. Third post. Not good.
(Turns round 3 times. Spits. Throws salt over shoulder)

Anyway. I had some time on my hands today, and in addition to the posting extravaganza, I've been able to try the game out again with the new HOF mod 1.74.SGOTM5.
That seems to work nicely, and removes many of the strangest things I've noted above.
You now appear on the scores, as do the Barbarians.
And we do both get scores, which are totalled together to give our position in the score list.
The crash at Alphabet has been fixed.
There is something odd about the research that is listed against the barbarians in the scores, and the techs that they suddenly give you. These don't match up. However, I wouldn't blame the mod for this. More likely it's something strange about the way barbarians research stuff.

Sam_Yeager said:

However BTS was delivered whilst I was at work today.

Click to expand...

Oh. Our posts crossed. On this occasion that's good, as you saved me from committing the "3rd post in a row" crime.

Enjoy your evening with BTS. (I haven't seen much of mine today. My copy was stolen by my youngest, who's intent on completing a game of it before I do )

markh said:

Anybody played the test map that was posted in the pre-discussion thread ?

Click to expand...

I haven't played that one but I've tried a few test maps of my own without too much success. Main points were that my starting position was always down in the south near the tundra, early teching is quite slow (no starting techs makes a big difference) and happiness resources were at a premium.

On the latest I managed to rush and kill Alexander before he got his phalanxes but it took quite a while especially whilst fighting off Ghandhi's raiding parties.

Hopefully Gyathaar will make our starting position half decent although I don't see much production about on the starting screen. The-Hawk's idea of culture sounds interesting although we need some decent production and teching to get the wonders before the AI does. Ghandhi/Asoka, Mansa and Cyrus do tend to be a bit fast on that front. Mind you both Ghandhi and Cyrus seemed to be active on the raiding front on my last game. Shades of SGOTM 04.

Diplo might still be possible. We need to decide if we make peace early or not. Getting a suitable religion early wouldn't hurt.

What patches and mods do I need for this game now?

Harbourboy said:

What patches and mods do I need for this game now?

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The first post has details of this as reproduced below:

AlanH said:

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

Click to expand...

This post from the maintenance thread has a link to the mod. You probably need to update your version of Directx before applying the patch otherwise it will fail to install. The main page has link to it (58MB IIRC).

If you have BTS then it will update DirectX and patch vanilla for you.

I, too, really like The-Hawk's idea of one of the more unpopular victory conditions (in this SGOTM).

Diplo is not entirely out of the question, as you can make peace early with about half of the AI. Experience with the test game has shown me that we can start making peace from about about turn 30 or so. However, I hadn't yet managed to get the AI attitude into the positive figures yet (not that I was trying to...). They continue to carry the -3 for "You declared war on us", offset against the +1 for "Years of peace". I guess if you set your mind to trading, warring on a common enemy etc, this idea might be a goer.

On the other hand, we can go cultural. Nothing about the game set-up seems to be directly against this. I personally have virtually no experience going for cultural victories, but I'm betting we do have some experience within the Geezers team.

Cultural is probably my favourite and most preferred victory condition, so I would support that as a goal, although I have no experience with this in the unique circumstances of this game.

How is the final ranking of results calculated then? Fastest? Highest scoring? Cultural is neither fast nor high scoring, but if there is a prize for fastest cultural then we'd be in with a shot.

If going for cultural, then big picture considerations are:
- city placement is crucial as you definitely need a kick-ass Great Artist farm, as well as 3 well-planned cities to be the Legendary culture cities.
- Wonders need to be carefully planned for maximum benefit and minium pollution of Great Artist pool
- You still need production cities to pump out units to keep up military power
- You need to plan to somehow get 3 religions spread to our cities, so a decision would be required on whether which ones we might want to found
- A decision would also be required on when we wanted to shut down science to focus on culture - this might be based on how precarious our military situation was at the time.
- A big decision is whether or not we plan to take any AI cities by force or not. This might be based on proximity of capitals and holy cities once we get started. An AI capital can be a great Legendary city, but only if you get it early enough. A big issue might be what exactly a "fractal archipelago" is.

AgedOne said:

Apologies for the huge post!

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Not at all, thanks for doing all this scouting. Really good stuff.

The first barbarian cities appeared about turn 80.

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I am a little concerned about this. If a barb city pops up near our capital, they may deny us valuable land since we can't attack them. This could be critical in a culture or space attempt.

Did you notice if they only appear in fog? Or, since they are our allies, can they pop up on visible tiles? We might need to fog bust them ourselves to protect our expansion area.

Barbarians do tech, though not at any great speed.
We get their techs, and they get ours.
Once they have cities, we can enter their City Management screens. From here, we can see what they are researching (although we can't change it)
You can decide to research different parts of the tech tree from the barbs, thus sharing your research.

Click to expand...

Something tells me there is a differentiator here. If we can figure out their tendancy to tech (what techs they prefer), we might be able to increase our tech rate by going another path. I suspect they prolly suck at teching though, so maybe we need to plow ahead without them.

We can bring the barbs up to the point where they have (e.g) axes earlier than they would normally have them. This can provide the AI with an irritating diversion.

Click to expand...

OK, I like this idea...

Sorry for being thick but what do I need to do? I read the maintenance thread and did not understand a word of it. Do I just need to install the "special mod"? What will that do to all my other games?