seancolorado
Deity
My opinion also shifts all the time. I have a feeling that there will be at least one civ that many people want that doesn't make the cut
What will be the remaining civs in Brave New World?
- Thread starter AbsintheRed
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My opinion also shifts all the time. I have a feeling that there will be at least one civ that many people want that doesn't make the cut
I have a feeling that Indonesia isn't going to make it. If Portugal is included they will be very similar in gameplay, both being trade focused naval civs., and I think this speaks against Indonesia.
Despite being in high demand I believe they won't make it.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
I do think that they'll have at least one new Asian civ, because G&K didn't add any. Still, if Vietnam is somehow confirmed as the civ (based on the Sofia CS theory), then I think Indonesia's chances will definitely be low.
oski90
Chieftain
Think you might be right, with the exception of the Comanche. In my mind they're not sufficiently differentiated from the Sioux, so I think it's more likely the Sioux get in if they pick a "plains" Native American tribe. Such a shame the Pueblo thing didn't work out because that would have been a really different and interesting civ.
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I don't think that Portugal necessarily precludes Indonesia. There were 2 civs in G&K that did religion UAs after all. There's more than one way to do Trade Routes. It seems to be assured that one UA will have an extra route. Another one could have faster Trade units, Trade units with better strength, an increased Trade Route profit from luxury resources, unique Trade units, unique buildings that enhance some aspect of Trade Routes, increased religion/ideology pressure along trade routes, etc.
There will definitely be one or two Asian civs in BNW.
I just have a feeling that it won't be Indonesia. My money's on Timurids(or some other Silk Road civ) and Vietnam(Ideology Turtle).
Gucumatz
JS, secretly Rod Serling
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In my mind you just explained why the Sioux have no chance of getting in. The "Native American" Civ of Civ 4 was a mess and the Pueblo show that they don't want to include the Sioux again this game. The Comanche was a raiding and mounted civ that is just as famous as the Sioux are in the US. If they gave up and included a plains civ, it would be much more probably for them to include the Comanche than the Sioux.
Look what they did with Mali -> Songhai, Khmer -> Siam, people have said for a while the Sioux felt overplayed and the Comanche would be a perfect opportunity if they used a mounted civ, for them to do a similar contrast from civ 4 to 5.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
I'm still thinking all three have a relatively even three-way split in terms of chances, but indeed the fact that we're now considering the Silk Road civs - in contrast to before when some of us were only considering Vietnam vs. Indonesia - makes things harder for Indonesia, indeed.
Though in the end I hope at least two of these Asian civs get in.
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Well said.
I also feel that the Comanche are historically connected to the Pueblo. The Comanche directly benefited from the Pueblo rebellion and immediately set up a massive raider/trader empire focused around horses; the biggest Native American empire in North America. They were like vikings on horseback. Sure, other plains tribes did as well, but the Comanche were first.
Bechhold
King
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I'll be disappointed if Kongo is not one of the new civs.
Portugal, Kongo (The Zulu are so played out), Timurids, either the Cherokee or Mississippians(The inuit would make no sense as one of their cities would be a US air base built in the 1940's...), Indonesia, total dark horse the Kingdom of Madagascar.
Portugal, Kongo (The Zulu are so played out), Timurids, either the Cherokee or Mississippians(The inuit would make no sense as one of their cities would be a US air base built in the 1940's...), Indonesia, total dark horse the Kingdom of Madagascar.
ferretbacon
Obsessor
The only issue with the Comanche is that they lack a strong leader.
The Apache could have Geronimo, Cochise, Mangas Coloradas...
The Sioux have Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse...
The Comanche would have who? Quanah Parker seems to be the best candidate I suppose, though he'd be a strange choice for a 'Vikings on horseback' civ.
The Apache could have Geronimo, Cochise, Mangas Coloradas...
The Sioux have Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse...
The Comanche would have who? Quanah Parker seems to be the best candidate I suppose, though he'd be a strange choice for a 'Vikings on horseback' civ.
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There are a lot of leaders who seem oddly paired to their UAs.
ferretbacon
Obsessor
Here I am, trying to turn up some decent pictures of what various Native American warriors looked like in actual battle dress (not stereotypical, Wild West costumes), and I'm having difficulting sorting through pictures of High School basketball teams and cheap Halloween costumes. 
The Silk Road indeed dawned very late on us.
It's also the main reason why I have my doubts about Indonesia. So far we have three obvious candidates for trade civs: Portugal(Naval Trade), Indonesia(Naval Trade) and Silk Road civ(Caravan Trade). I know that their UAs doesn't necessary have to have anything to do with either naval/caravan trade, but I believe it's easier to make the trade civs stand out from one another by having one that's famous for naval trade and one that famous for caravan based trade.
If this is the case, then Indonesia needs to compete with Portugal for the spot and I think we know who will most likely be picked.
I don't even think Indonesia necessarily needs to be a trade civ to make it in. And if we're talking Majapahit, then they're subsiding off of tribute more than trade.
Portugal and Zulu are a lock. That leaves four to go. Enough room for Majapahit. Probably not Italy though.
seancolorado
Deity
Same here. Indonesia's chances are much lower than people make it out to be. I'm actually wondering why they aren't including in that "dark horse poll" thread because there has literally been zero hints that they would be a civ
They had the largest empire in Southeast Asian history, yet they haven't made it in any Civ game at all thus far - so why should they be any more likely to make it in the 2nd expansion of Civ V?
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
While I do think that a trade UA would be the most plausible one for Indonesia, steveg700 brings up a good point - remember that the UA doesn't have to be solely trade. It could be a rather unique combination of trade and something else, for that matter - maybe some sort of culture or faith bonus on trade routes, for instance, or something even more weirder and specific. Still, in terms of civilization archetype, I do agree that when it comes to Portugal vs. Indonesia for a maritime trade civ, Portugal wins by a landslide, for better or worse. (Though Portugal definitely deserves the spot nonetheless, given its importance in economic history)
Indonesia et al has a strong case, in my opinion:
1. Fills a significant geographical hole in the Civ world
2. Strongly desired by fanbase, as most polls have shown (I think this helped both Poland and Brazil get in)
3. One of the new wonders is Indonesian (this, of course, is no guarantee, with the CN Tower and the Sydney Opera House in without their representative society, but it's meaningful, and every other NEW wonder has their civ in, unless you don't count the Uffizi)
4. Fits the trade route theme, and I disagree that they necessarily "compete" with Portugal. Maybe this is off the wall, but I think Portugal will be naval/exploration more than naval/trade, and we know there's a new Exploration policy tree for this expansion.
1. Fills a significant geographical hole in the Civ world
2. Strongly desired by fanbase, as most polls have shown (I think this helped both Poland and Brazil get in)
3. One of the new wonders is Indonesian (this, of course, is no guarantee, with the CN Tower and the Sydney Opera House in without their representative society, but it's meaningful, and every other NEW wonder has their civ in, unless you don't count the Uffizi)
4. Fits the trade route theme, and I disagree that they necessarily "compete" with Portugal. Maybe this is off the wall, but I think Portugal will be naval/exploration more than naval/trade, and we know there's a new Exploration policy tree for this expansion.
ferretbacon
Obsessor
That's what I was thinking myself. I don't think Portugal is as strong a contender to be a 'trade civ' as some do. I think they're going to be strongly flavored to be naval/exploratory.
Indonesia makes more sense as a civ that interacts with other civilizations/CSs through trade routes, but not in a monetary sense. I suspect they might get some sort of bonus which helps them to export their culture/religion/etc.
If there's going to be any naval trade empire, I suspect that it will be a modified Dutch.
Bonci
King
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