A Guide to Playing “Small” on Deity (feat. Piety)

ITT - people who exploit certain game mechanics look down on other people for exploiting different game mechanics.

Reality check - in every game you have ever played, and will ever play, the path to victory involves understanding how the game is played, how the other players in the game react, and how you can manipulate both to your advantage.
 
ITT - people who exploit certain game mechanics look down on other people for exploiting different game mechanics.

I don't think anyone's saying that. We're saying its no more gamey or exploitive than traditional science (and especially war) strategies...

We're making the same point.

It's a counterargument to those who claim using AI diplo is "gamey", whereas attacking the AI, a popular established strategy, is not.

Its defensive, not offensive. I am fully happy to be exploiting the AI in a different way. But, I don't think those who claim its MORE exploitive than established strategies can defend their claim.

It's the same point you're making. So, ITT, we agree with you chum.

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We're saying its no more gamey or exploitive than traditional science (and especially war) strategies...

I do think that its obivous that strategies which work in mp are less about exploiting ai weaknesses as they do work aswell against clever players.

So a strategy not working at all in mp is in retroargument maximum about exploiting ai.
 
I remember doing some math on the "economics of happy" ages ago. Yes, in terms of maintenance the basic happiness buildings are better than luxuries; but the hammer cost has to be accounted for. In my math I simply settled for having the purchase price of the building as its base cost and then adding maintenance. If a Coliseum is built on T100 in a game that lasts until T250, as an example, it's overall cost is 500 gold + 150 * 2 = 800 gold or 5.3 gpt for those 150 turns; which is slightly worse than a luxury. With a longer lifespan of 180 turns it would be a little less than 4.8 gpt for 2 happy, which is still worse than a luxury. Of course you don't actually rush buy everything in your cities so it comes down to how you evaluate hammers vs. gold. The possibility of building the Circus Maximus also helps improve the value of Coliseums. How much would it cost to ally and keep a mercantile CS for those 150 turns? Assuming 1 influence lost per turn, so that you'd need to buy 210 influence in total, that could amount to something like 3500 gold (assuming you can buy 60-70 influence for 1000 gold every now and then), or 23.3 gpt for 11 happy; even that is just about on par with a basic luxury, so it comes down to situational stuff like luck with quests. All in all I've played with a base assumption that Circuses are great, while Coliseums, luxuries and merc CS's are about equal until something tips the balance towards one thing or the other.

But basically I agree... pop costs happy which costs gold. And while pop is great cause it creates beakers, hammers and sometimes gold too, it can be economically straining to run a large and growing empire. And gold is uniquely valuable as the currency for diplomacy, where it can often help you to control the game, undermining the stronger AI's chance of winning and eventually leading to your own (by diplo or whatever).

Yeah, the Hammers need to be taken into account when building Happy. Because rush-buying a Colosseum to stay happy is going to carry a different set of costs.

But the thing is, when you're staying small to avoid excess unhappy, your opening build order looks a lot different. When I am expanding Liberty-style for space, size or military, then my BO is usually Monument > Granary/Archer, then possibly Water Mills on top, mixed in with Forge/Stable/Stone Works. Obviously in this style, it makes no sense to trade Happiness away, because this approach is using Happy/Gold to get Hammers/Growth in the first place. So, I will either have enough Happy to avoid building Colosseums until 5th or 6th build, or I will not have expanded.

Under an Economic/Religious style though, I am looking for things I can build that do not charge too much maintenance. It can even become a struggle to avoid this. I don't want Units or Growth. Granaries themselves are a good building at 2F for 1G, but it is the less-productive population itself that you don't want to pay the Gold for. Small cities where I want to work 2-3 low Food tiles build Granaries, but otherwise no. What a more typical opening build looks like is Shrine (if Religious) > Monument > Circus/Colosseum > Temple/Market, then everything else, buying Workers/Trade Units. The Happy buildings are so high in the build-order because at the rate I can trade luxuries to the AI (~2G/1H), they actually represent the most immediately productive building that a size 2 city with one Gold tile can build. It basically nets 3 Gold (4, less 1 maintenance) right away, without having to rely on modifiers, etc. Temples under Theocracy are good once you have some base tile yield, but are neutral or negative otherwise. I'm certainly building Markets instead if I've unlocked Currency, but second build usually dictates a Happy building.

So, you're right when you say that it comes down to how you value Gold v Hammers. But the principle here is changing your play and BO depending on which, and not to just follow one BO for all games that presumes size > all.


On Mercantile CS's as well, I find those always represent Gold savings if you are not competing with an AI. They provide 2 luxuries at 4 Happy each, then 6 for allied status. That's 28 GPT at 2g/1h. Your Influence degrades at 1/turn, .75/turn if shared Religion(?), and the worst deal you are getting on Influence is 250g/15, or ~17. Doing the math straight across, the worst you can do is 28 to 17 surplus, with shared Religion putting it up to 28/.75 or ~37 to 17. Even an oddball double-luxury CS that is not Mercantile gives 16 to ~17, and then whatever it gives you goes straight to net.

To get the Influence up in the first place, you should consider the initial investment a sunk cost. In economic terms then, you don't count it at the margin like this. You buy a Merc CS because it is a profitable asset. Or coming at the other end, you buy CS's because the alternatives of rush buys in cities is such a bad deal (except Workers and Trade Units). Even if you do allocate the overhead over the life of the game, the net ~10gpt worst case Mercantile recoups even a 1000g outlay within 100 turns. About Turn 90-100 where the second round of 30 turn luxury trades expire is where you should be looking to buy them, and that's more than enough time to get positive. The astute thing to do is keep an eye on CS personality types, look at which quests they're offering, and plan accordingly. They often ask you to hook up the Merc luxury of the type they don't give, and you should be able to trade straight across for a normal lux they're asking for too.

Bottom line, it is a good deal at this Turn 90-100 point in the game to trade your own Luxuries to Friends until you're unhappy, then use that Gold same turn to buy up a Mercantile CS to put yourself back into positive. It's something that I've often done to good effect. The only thing you have to watch out for are the CS hungry AI's on the map, and who is competing for those CS's at that point.



@multiplayer, that is always good for a laugh. This game works only slightly better in MP than an FFA map of Starcraft. There's no check on human player's ability to exploit one another for the very reason that there's no diplo. It's brinkmanship at its worst. Never trade lump sum, or you'll get DoW'd within a turn every time. A human player will DoW you Turn 40 just to capture your Settler, then justifiably expect you to come to the trading table 10 turns later if it's in your best interest. Talking about Multi, you might as well be talking about the "always war" setting.

That's not to mention the double-blind, rock-paper-scissors nature of Multi to begin with. Two players go war, one peace, and the slowest one to go war wins. Two go peace and one war, whichever peaceful player doesn't get attacked wins. It's just completely about perverse incentives and collusion, not about game mechanics at all. Which is why "this would never work in multi" is such an absurd refutation.
 
I do think that its obivous that strategies which work in mp are less about exploiting ai weaknesses as they do work aswell against clever players.

So a strategy not working at all in mp is in retroargument maximum about exploiting ai.

This is a fallacious distinction. Diplo itself is not even implemented in multiplayer, because there's no AI. Its like saying all religions and espionage mechanics are more exploitive than other strategies, because there's a little used mode of play where you can turn religion and espionage off. Its a false distinction. All strategies are exploitive, because they go after a weakness.

AI diplo and playing from behind are as much a part of the game design as war. I mean, they literally programmed this stuff in, explicitly (diplo modifiers and catch up science). This was not a technical limitation, or omission, like the AI move and shoot on same turn. If anything, this play-style is functioning as intended moreso than war.

Try this thought experiment on for size. If you asked the devs "Should a player be able to create good AI diplo with religion in lieu of having an army, and then catch up in science through scholars and espionage?" The devs will say "Of course! Why the hell else do you think we made a damn Piety tree, diplo modifiers, and added all these science formulas that limit the runaways and benefits civs who are behind for?"

Now, try asking "Is the AI supposed to never move and attack on the same turn? Or march units around a city aimlessly while getting shot?" They'll undoubtedly say, "Of course not! We've been trying to fix this issue for 3 years now, and I think we've had some success, but we recognize this is still an issue. Unfortunately, there are limitations to what the AI can do."

In any case, this is a guide for deity play, not a MP guide. Civ V, is a single player game first and foremost, with a tacked on multiplayer option (as evidenced by how long the game existed without a functional multiplayer mode, and in the eyes of many, still does not have a functional multiplayer).

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Yeah, if the AI's actually "knew" that you were a Human player, and that as such you probably gain more for any marginal resource than an AI, wouldn't they just be programmed not to trade with you at all? That's basically the dynamic of trading in multi. Players may just DoW to get out of deals and end Trade Routes. Any time there is an actually "legit" deal, it was probably because there was some collusion to go on with it.

So if whether something's good in multi is the judge, then the whole trade screen is an exploit? Considering how much was spent on graphics for those screens and how much total time a player will spend in those screens over a game, it seems like just the opposite is true. Diplo was probably one of the more important aspects to design. Any setting that effectively disables diplo is a variant setting.

In the end, Civ V is a single-player first, simulation game. And because it's a simulation, AI behavior is modeled more alongside what behavior might be between to actual countries. It's not about game-theory optimized results against an all-or-nothing objective. And if we're measuring it as a simulation of history, history will show that civilizations more capable of dealing with neighbors have achieved disproportionate success, above perhaps any other consideration. If people are playing a different game than that, it's their own personalized variant they've selected, such as "always war" or Marathon speed.
 
For all I care, multiplayer Civ might as well not exist. I choose to play Civ for the single-player experience and if I wanted some kind of mp action I'd likely choose a different game.

At the end of the day I have no problem with exploiting the AI's limitation. For me that's what the game is about. Mastering the game is about learning to anticipate AI behavior and taking advantage of it. I have no problem with stealing workers, butchering carpets of units from defensive positions, selling a city to the AI for thousands of gold, etc etc. I love it, it's my idea of fun in Civ. Branding it all a dishonorable exploit is to me as silly as saying you exploit a crossword puzzle when you become really good at solving it.

Justice, I thought merc CS's only give +3 happiness, apart from the luxuries, when allied? Think that was a change that came with BNW or some patch just before or after that. So assuming you gain from both luxes, you can get a total of 11 happiness by allying a merc CS. But whatever the math, I agree with your analysis and play similarly to how you do; I also generally prefer to sell off my own luxuries and invest in a merc CS, if there's no competition for it. As I said, the three (luxes, buildings, CS's) start roughly equal but usually quests soon tip the balance in favor of a CS alliance, unless there's a CS-gobbling civ like Greece around.

I played a 3-city piety game with Byzantium up to the point of having completed the piety tree and being ready for all-out missionary spam. But these days I'm more in the mood for fighting so I'm having some fun with an aggressive Aztec full-honor start, kicking butts with those lovely Jaguars.
 
Mercantile CSs give 3 happiness at friend, and then just give the happiness from their luxuries at ally.

This was fixed in the Nov. 2012 G&K patch: "Reduced Happiness a bit from Mercantile City States. You no longer get +1 bonus happiness going from Friends to Allies (since you already get the luxuries then). And eliminated the +1 Happiness entering Industrial era."
 
Yeah, Mercantile civs aren't as cool as they used to be. Especially if the unique lux they provide isn't unique and you already have it from another CS. You might actually get more happiness from allying another CS in that case.
 
I don't think anyone's saying that. We're saying its no more gamey or exploitive than traditional science (and especially war) strategies...

We're making the same point.

It's a counterargument to those who claim using AI diplo is "gamey", whereas attacking the AI, a popular established strategy, is not.

Its defensive, not offensive. I am fully happy to be exploiting the AI in a different way. But, I don't think those who claim its MORE exploitive than established strategies can defend their claim.

It's the same point you're making. So, ITT, we agree with you chum.

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Yeah, wasn't talking about your side of the argument. Some people come off as pricks because of the language barrier or some general feeling of superiority or something, I dunno.

But I do know that you (not you personally, thanks for this guide, btw, I thoroughly enjoyed every word of it) can't run around in other threads talking about how you never lose units to the AI in war and then think that exploiting that fact makes you good at the game whilst talking smack to the guy who made this thread for exploiting other aspects of game design. That's just silly. Clearly anyone who's good at the game is good at exploiting the design of the game, whether that's winning with 3 CB's and a pike or whether it's going the long road of a fairly weak tree and snatching victory at the end.
 
Yeah, in the end, this game is what it is. A human plays it far better than the AI. Giving the AI a ~30% bonus to everything or whatever the AI gets on Deity is not even enough to tip the scales. But imagine if it were. I would not want to be playing Chess against a 20GB computer program that had 30% more opening material than I did. But it's there if I do want to get beaten to submission by an AI. This game just offers a certain kind of experience, and it's more simulation than anything. Talking too much optimization and such can take away from what makes civ a great experience.

Which is why a lot of players don't even touch the Deity difficulty. They want to be able to play how they want, and resist anything that looks like a one-size-fits-all pattern, or a set of must-do's. This guide was really good at showing that even on Deity, you don't have to follow a set regime and can play how you want without getting blown out. You just have to be cognizant of which mechanics come in and save you as you fall short on other things. Gold will come in and save you if your pop is low, and this is how to do it. Religion is an option on little space, and this is how. Very good guide.
 
Tried something like this with Polynesia on a Pangaea map (felt like doing something underpowered; also working Moai early seemed like a fun thing to do if I don't care much about growth or science). Second religion + Pilgrimage + Unity of the Prophets allowed me to get amazing spread, eventually hitting 150 fpt. Decided to go full Commerce and used my massive faith surplus to buy 4 Great Merchants (4,000 faith for a Great Merchant? sure, why not). Just missed winning on the first World Leader proposal, then got it easily on the second one. Was never in any real danger of being DOW'ed.

This game has a lot of room for different strategies, and that's a good thing. I don't care if it's suboptimal; I care if it's good enough to win. If going all-out pushing growth+science was the only way to win, I would've gotten bored and stopped playing a while ago.
 
Nice, if you don't mind me asking, how did you miss the first vote? Which delegate boosters did you have / not have? How many CS were yours?

I had Forbidden Palace and all but two CSes allied (the other two got eaten; think I could have saved at least one of them if I had been paying more attention). Had Forbidden Palace and didn't have either World Religion or World Ideology at the time. (Probably could've forced through World Ideology but decided to be cautious. Forcing through World Religion might've gotten me killed. I actually didn't have the votes to relocate the Congress where I wanted to the first time, so the AI didn't do World Religion for me). So I think I was actually 3 full votes short, but I was also only a couple turns from Globalization, which would've given me more than enough.

(I feel like I may be misremembering the vote count? I'm pretty sure it was 3 votes short, but I'm not sure that makes sense. I only recently switched from small maps to standard, so I don't know the exact numbers for Diplo Victory on that map size.)

The science cost of getting to Globalization EVENTUALLY is really not very much, especially if you save Oxford for it. Going Commerce + Big Ben + Order + many buffed Great Merchants basically means that you can get instant Research Labs everywhere at Plastics, so your late game science at least develops well. Another hidden benefit of this type of game is that avoiding/deprioritizing Science specialists means it's very easy to generate at least one Great Engineer, which are typically hard to come by due to Great Scientists spawning faster. This game gives you no end of possible powerful things to do that are usually mutually exclusive. Skipping out on the normal path gives you a ton of interesting bonuses, even if they aren't quite as powerful as the standard ones.

Honestly, I suspect Diplo Victory should be doable in close to 100% of games. It's not hard to maintain peace if you understand diplomacy and don't contest terrain, and buying all the CSes before the AI launches should be trivially easy. All you really have to do to win is make sure that you're buddies with the runaway.
 
You got Forbidden Palace!? Wow. On a Piety start? Is this Deity? Maybe I should rethink giving up on it. Didn't think it was possible.

I used my naturally spawned Great Engineer to build it... I believe Banking was my first Renaissance tech, too. Probably more importantly, though, sometimes you just have zero AIs going into Patronage early. Obviously that's a particularly helpful break with this strategy, but as far as I can tell it's not a super rare occurrence.
 
You got Forbidden Palace!? Wow. On a Piety start? Is this Deity? Maybe I should rethink giving up on it. Didn't think it was possible.

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I've had plenty of deity games where no one goes patronage... :lol: I'd say around 30% of the time actually. (on the other hand EVERYONE loves aesthetics... and piety... can't remember a game where these trees were not picked)
 
Wanted to bump this to talk about it:

In the current state of the game, Piety is somewhere between bad and awful. But, it is not completely unplayable. Humble though its capabilities may be, it does have them, and they do have certain undeniable synergies with playing small. To understand the dilemma of Piety as an opening tree, let's start with a couple of myths about Piety.

Piety starts must go wide. This is simply not true. Piety has exactly 2.5 policies that benefit from going wide, the opener, Organized Religion, and half of Theocracy (and a possible choice for reformation belief, but you don't have to choose a wide-one). Compare this to Tradition, which also has 2.5 wide-friendly policies (Oligarchy, part of the opener, part of the finisher, and part of Aristocracy). Compare this to Liberty, which has all 6 of its policies favoring wide (arguable the free worker and settler parts of their respective policies are not wide-friendly, but that's still 5 total policies). Compare this to Honor, which has only 1 (Military Caste). Religion itself doesn't have to go wide either. A faith pantheon, a faith CS, or a faith natural wonder will all support tall/small play. Piety is more flexible than Tradition/Liberty in that you can go tall or wide or small and still reap the benefits.

Piety has a happiness problem. This is also not true. Liberty needs happiness (and doesn't get enough of it) because you have a lot of cities at -3 per and an overall larger population. Tradition needs happiness (and arguably gets too much of it) because it's going to make your cities, especially your capital, grow a lot faster. Honor needs happiness because you need to absorb unhappiness from conquest (the happiness bonus, which is your total # of cities, roughly keeps up with half of the AI city's population if you continuously war and acquire more cities; it's rather elegant). On the other hand, Piety has no growth bonus, no settling extra city bonus, and no conquest bonus. So, it's not doing anything that would require the happiness! But of course, if you don't ever grow, spread, or conquer, you're probably going to lose. So, you'll have to do something at some point. The idea only is that you can't do any of those things right off the bat, so you can wait to eventually get your happiness from other sources (like, your next SP tree, or a CS, or trade). Piety is designed to start very slow, even slower than Liberty, and to build up that game-long religion bonus.

Piety has no culture. This is only partly true. Piety has delayed culture. If you are not using a culture civ, then you must construct your religion very carefully. You do not need culture in the beginning of the tree, because if anything, Mandate of Heaven, Theocracy, and Religious Tolerance come too early to even be useful at that point. You only start needing culture after getting temples and a religion, to speed through the rest of the tree. So, make sure you have a source of culture then. For most civs, this means that at least one of your pantheon, founder or first follower belief must generate culture. You'll likely still finish slower than other trees that get their culture in the opener, but Piety doesn't need to be finished quickly. It's built to be slow. Ultimately, when going small, you want your religion to have a healthy faith/culture balance to address this problem (and a heavy focus on culture/faith CSs).

I'm not sure the "Piety doesn't get X, but so what, it doesn't need X" is giving the tree a fair shake.

On the ability to go Wide, I'm not sure it's fair to credit each and every benefit that applies on a per city basis or an empire-wide as supporting Wide play. I definitely see Tradition as having 0 policies that support going wide. Maybe border expansion and the free unit maintenance of Oligarchy are convenient for Wide, but really, it's an exaggeration to say that such small differences "support" going Wide. And I am laughing at the idea that Aristocracy's one Happiness per 10 pop city Policy makes wide play easier. Basically I am asking one question in Wide/Tall - how fast can I get new cities doing something useful instead of just soaking up one Luxury worth of Unhappy? Liberty answers that question with +1 Hammer/+1 Culture by allowing Military Unit first BO's, or whatever else you want. Tradition has free Monuments, but is confused on what to build second other than just Granary. On the other hand, Piety allows Shrine before Monument BO's. Shrine first under either Tradition or Liberty is comparatively pretty terrible. I don't think Wide is strictly necessary, but I'd expect Piety starts to include more cities on average than Trad.

On Culture and Happy, I think the idea is a bit misplaced that you don't go looking for them in Piety, justified by the statement that you don't need them. Because in practice, my Piety openers are better than the Liberty/Trad openers on both accounts. One question would be - how likely are you to get Mosques/Pagodas without Piety v. with Piety? I'm probably being extreme, but it's pretty close to 0% without and maybe 90% with, that 10% mostly belonging to games with Ethiopia as an AI. That said, now that I have that Follower and enough Faith to actually build the buildings, my Culture and Happy in practice are much better than Trad, and probably as good or better than Liberty. The Culture from Holy Sites is what puts it clearly ahead, since you'll probably have at least two. Just that and the free Prophet are equal to the Trad opener right there, less the delay relative to Legalism. It's just your border growth that is bad. It is true that you don't need middle tier policies that soon, but also, Piety does boost your culture quite a bit.


Anyway, what prompted me is that I just replayed a map as Austria where I'd rolled Tradition earlier, rolling Piety this time. I had much better results with a similar economic style under Piety. So much better that I was able to fight a few profitable wars before Turn 120. Monarchy-first gave a bit of a lead on one luxury trade, but Pagoda 1 and 2 under Piety was equal to it after they were built, and so money was about the same up to about Turn 100. After that of course, it shot ahead very quickly with the Philo > Currency tech path instead.
 
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