Israel

arya126

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How do you feel on the past week or so of airstrikes, and now the beginning of a naval bombardment and a limited ground invasion? Is Israel in the right, or are you one of those who stubbornly insist that Gaza, Hamas, and Palestinians are all the good guys?
 
Israel, definitely.

It is the frontline state against everything that is alien to Western civilisation, both internally (left-wing dogooders) and externally (Modernist Arab dictators). Now, Israel may not be perfect, though in contrast to Israel, the very existence of groups like Fatah and Hamas is just plain revolting, unless they manage to reform, and become respectable Arab interests' group within the framework of Israeli statehood. Hamas foor instance was originally supported by Israel in the 1970s to be a bulwark against the secular nationalist PLO.
 
Israel, definitely.

It is the frontline state against everything that is alien to Western civilisation, both internally (left-wing dogooders) and externally (Modernist Arab dictators). Now, Israel may not be perfect, though in contrast to Israel, the very existence of groups like Fatah and Hamas is just plain revolting, unless they manage to reform, and become respectable Arab interests' group within the framework of Israeli statehood. Hamas foor instance was originally supported by Israel in the 1970s to be a bulwark against the secular nationalist PLO.

Eh, what? :confused:
 
We don't usually let traumatised trigger-happy psychos own a bunch of military-grade weapons and run around unchecked.

When it's pretending to be a country and shooting at Muslims though, apparently it's fine.
 
Or you could avoid taking the simpleton mindset and realize both sides can be a mix of bad and good. Thinking israel's sloppy, ineffective airstrikes are bad does not magically mean I think hamas launching rockets at civilians is in the right and thinking their rockets are in the wrong doesnt mean I discount what behavior on israel's end has lead to that action. This is a conflict with two sides stuck in a cycle of child like stupidity.
 
Sure, Israel has the right to defend themselves. That isn't what they are currently doing though, as far as I can tell. Four kids on a beach don't constitute an eminent terrorist threat. Neither do water and sewage systems.

Or you could avoid taking the simpleton mindset and realize both sides can be a mix of bad and good.

This is the fallacy of the golden medium, not to mention that I really doubt anyone outside of Gaza actually supports Hamas' rocket attacks, so you've already got your mix on one side at least.
 
Hamas's actions are utterly reprehensible. So are the actions of Israel, going beyond their current actions in Gaza.

And there's something supremely amusing about Israel of all things fighting so hard against extremists using terrorism to secure an independent homeland in the holy land.
 
Looking at the body count and the shocking numbers of child and civilian casualties, it's pretty evident the response is disproportionate.
 
The idea of Just War requires proportionality. Even a war started for just reasons can be fought unjustly if the lesser harm can be used.

But the whole idea of Just War is a Christian concept. While I am not intimate with Jewish (or Islamic) teachings on the subject, I suppose that the combatants in this war do not feel themselves bound by a concept outside their own traditions.
 
Pretty sure more death by Israel is the answer. It is unlikely there will be even more hatred against them following their current horror campaign. I mean it's not like Palestinians are human or anything, so they are logically expected to just lower their head and move on after even more of them are murdered. Good job keeping it isreal :thumbsup:
 
Israel, definitely.

It is the frontline state against everything that is alien to Western civilisation, both internally (left-wing dogooders) and externally (Modernist Arab dictators). Now, Israel may not be perfect, though in contrast to Israel, the very existence of groups like Fatah and Hamas is just plain revolting, unless they manage to reform, and become respectable Arab interests' group within the framework of Israeli statehood. Hamas foor instance was originally supported by Israel in the 1970s to be a bulwark against the secular nationalist PLO.

Israel is a 21st century crusader-state made possible by religious fundamentalism and some really twisted, weird cultural imperialism/straight-up colonialism. If we assume that "western civilization" is a thing -- which is a really dumb assumption, but whatever, for the purpose of argument -- and it's all about democracy and self-determination and self-rule and secularism and the American Way(TM) then Israel represents none of those things.

The Palestinian Arabs fighting for self-rule in their own homeland are the defenders of those ideals. But the British and the French had to do something with the much-maligned Jews.
 
Israel is a 21st century crusader-state made possible by religious fundamentalism and some really twisted, weird cultural imperialism/straight-up colonialism.

Israel is not tainted by decadence that has taken hold of the West elsewhere. The meanings of Israelis and Palestinians have meaning. We have empty and meaningless lives. To those in the West, Israel (and Russia) present something of a torch.

Western civilisation is doomed. Though we have the opportunity to go to god honourably.

If we assume that "western civilization" is a thing -- which is a really dumb assumption, but whatever, for the purpose of argument -- and it's all about democracy and self-determination and self-rule and secularism and the American Way(TM) then Israel represents none of those things.

Nope. It is about the cultural heritage the West originated from, including Hebrew civilisation. This requires an aristocratic polity. While Israel was founded a democracy, its current feudal state of government was a happy 'mistake'.

The Palestinian Arabs fighting for self-rule in their own homeland are the defenders of those ideals

Self-rule is undesirable in general, whether we are talking about Palestine, Switzerland, China or the United States. Since Palestine became the Jewish homeland, you will find out that Palestine has always been ruled externally (you can count the Crusaders if you like) in the absence of the Jews. A state is nothing but its ruling elite and diluting or destroying it is a recipe for another Somalia.

Though if Somalia is your cup of tea, I won't stop you! :goodjob:
 
Looking at the body count and the shocking numbers of child and civilian casualties, it's pretty evident the response is disproportionate.

So America is a villian then, since in WWII there wer very few American cvilians killed and yet milions of German and Japanese civilians. Definitely a proportional response by any means. :rolleyes: I can't beieve people are still considering raw numbers as if Israel's response hasn't been "proportional", not that any articles of war ever mention the word, but not that it matters. What the numbers show is that one side , Israel, protects it's civilians from attack and th other side, Hamas, doesn't. But that doesn't matter because all that matters is the numbers of dead, not why they are dead, but don't forget that on past experience that the ratio has about 50/50 civilian militant deaths, which is rather remarkable considering the conditions they are against.
 
Is it me, or is that a clearly biased opening post?

Are you one of the good guys, who wants civilians to stop being killed or do you think the IDF should go on bombing people's houses?

I also like the way you conflate being on the side of 'Palestinians' with being on the side of Hamas. Concern for civilian welfare for you is equivalent to supporting terrorist acts is it?
 
Or you could avoid taking the simpleton mindset and realize both sides can be a mix of bad and good. Thinking israel's sloppy, ineffective airstrikes are bad does not magically mean I think hamas launching rockets at civilians is in the right and thinking their rockets are in the wrong doesnt mean I discount what behavior on israel's end has lead to that action. This is a conflict with two sides stuck in a cycle of child like stupidity.

This pretty much sums up how I feel on the matter. Both sides are equally childish and seem obsessed with causing as much death and destruction they can and will use the slightest provocation as an excuse to commence the slaughter.
 
Is it me, or is that a clearly biased opening post?

Are you one of the good guys, who wants civilians to stop being killed or do you think the IDF should go on bombing people's houses?

I also like the way you conflate being on the side of 'Palestinians' with being on the side of Hamas. Concern for civilian welfare for you is equivalent to supporting terrorist acts is it?
Then complain to Hamas for firing from civilian positions. Israel is going after those positions and any blame lies with Hamas and not Israel.
 
How do you feel on the past week or so of airstrikes, and now the beginning of a naval bombardment and a limited ground invasion? Is Israel in the right, or are you one of those who stubbornly insist that Gaza, Hamas, and Palestinians are all the good guys?

Im with the "guys" who don't slaughter children.

I think more and more comparisons between what's happening in Gaza and what happened to Jews in WWII should be made. Warsaw ghetto, murder of civilians for sport, theft of businesses, land, property, civilians cheering on the murders etc, etc, etc.

There are two major marches in my country at the Weekend (Scotland) to give our love and support to the Palestinian people.

220 Palestinians (77% civilian, 20% kids)1 Israeli killed. Hospital, schools, beach, special care unit targeted. Self defence or genocide and now the latest

"Really shocking that Israel, of all countries,is now using poisonous gas to support its "incursion" into Gaza, according to numerous reports"
 
Israel is not tainted by decadence that has taken hold of the West elsewhere. The meanings of Israelis and Palestinians have meaning. We have empty and meaningless lives. To those in the West, Israel (and Russia) present something of a torch.

Western civilisation is doomed. Though we have the opportunity to go to god honourably.



Nope. It is about the cultural heritage the West originated from, including Hebrew civilisation. This requires an aristocratic polity. While Israel was founded a democracy, its current feudal state of government was a happy 'mistake'.



Self-rule is undesirable in general, whether we are talking about Palestine, Switzerland, China or the United States. Since Palestine became the Jewish homeland, you will find out that Palestine has always been ruled externally (you can count the Crusaders if you like) in the absence of the Jews. A state is nothing but its ruling elite and diluting or destroying it is a recipe for another Somalia.

Though if Somalia is your cup of tea, I won't stop you! :goodjob:

Are you going to move to Israel, seeing as you value its ideals so greatly?
 
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