Leader Traits Revisited

JosEPh_II

TBS WarLord
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Jun 20, 2007
Messages
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This thread is started at StrategyOnly's request over the ongoing discussion about the Trait system in C2C and how it is impacting the AI and the Mod's performance.


This quote from myself was the starting point of the discussions.

JosEPh wrote:
I've got pages of notes on his Traits and what his traits for each leader did over the base Leader Traits we had before his was put in. Want a Super duper Leader, Pick Hammurabi or Julius Caesar, can't go wrong with either one as they have virtually No downsides but plenty of Up. Or maybe you want to challenge your self, well then pick Charlemagne, Joao, Qin Shi Huang, or Victoria. They all have enough Malus to make them range from 155 to 175% Worse than Hammurabi or 140% to 160% worse than Julius in upkeep alone (iUpkeep Modifier).

You want extra Crime every turn from your Leader just pick Sitting Bull or Red Cloud both at +15/turn for every city you own (iirc).

Of the 68 Leaders I profiled only 11 had iUpkeep Modifier under a 100% increase. And Hammurabi is the only one that actually decreases the upkeep mod. 57 Other leaders give you a 100% to 170% Increase in Upkeep as well as other problems like Siting Bull and Red Cloud have (there are plenty other that add Crime per turn as well as these 2.

And then we have several that have a weird formula about crime that I never got a straight answer form Sgt Slick about. Goes something like this, for every Pop you have over 10 the current crime level you have is multiplied by -3/2Crime/turn and added back into the Crime total (I think, as I could never get a verification over it from anyone including Slick).

Another one for you, if you have an Aggressive Leader then once you let your Crime level hit 200 it adds +10 Crime/turn to every city you own. Ever wonder why TWs are built like crazy using the very Traits T-brd above says does a good job? (Not picking on you T-brd but glad you did chime in with an set that does back "some of this craziness" off somewhat.)

I wanted to build a chart years ago (but didn't know how) to show what changes were happening under Sgt's changes to Leader Traits. (Basically he wanted everyone to play C2C at the Deity level from Noble on up with minimum Gold for everyone including the AI.) But when I would come here and question what was going on I got cursed at by him. (Maybe some of you modders might remember that, maybe not. I was basically told to leave him alone.)

That is why for a long time now I won't check any Leader Trait Option boxes except for the occasional game with Focused Option by ls612. ls612 Knew what Slick was doing and disagreed with him over it too. So he built an Alternate set, Focused Traits. The very one you want to get rid of SO.

Edit: Sidenote on Crime and Hydro's implementation of it. Hydro (after SGT Slick added in the new Trait system) was doing all his testing for getting his crime values (for bldgs, Individual Crimes, and any other place he added crime to thru the Property system) and Gold Modifiers with Julius Caesar as his Leader. Julius only has a 15% increase in UPkeep modifier and a +60% increase in Trade iYield (1st iYield). So all his testing was unbalanced because he used the 2nd best Leader available.

To which Thunderbrd replied:
SO asked me to stop working on traits mid-project and get back to the combat mod. Had I not, we'd have a suitable option and not ls612's BS or Slick's BS. Both are BS imo. Just sayin'. Slicks' is the default. And I was never able to complete my set or even begin to put it to xml. I have a spreadsheet still but I think I'd be able to come up with something a little softer than my original workup.

But again... not getting sidetracked until there's a break in the plans. Probably should get it done soon though.

As a side note, I did develop a lot of interesting new tags for my trait set and they never have been used.

If you and I agree that the sets are BS and SO wants Focused removed, then maybe we need a consensus from the rest of the team to Start removing both sets of Leader traits and re-install the Original Leader Traits the Mod started with. Yes it will reduce the Leader's effects upon the Empire he leads. But it would remove so Much Overhead. And how many Game Options we could also removed to reduce that glut too. Some may call this idea unwanted/uneccessary fat trimming, but it's bad, bad fat that makes balancing the Mod so much harder to do.

JosEPh


Faustmouse
I agree with Joseph. I don't play with traits anymore because it makes the game harder. I do love the idea of developing leaderheads (that was one of my favourite add-ons in c2c) but with the current set of traits it is boring since you always pick the same ones...

T-brd's reply:
Only the Focused Traits represents another set. The rest of the options are to appease differing opinions. Personally, if it were me, and we all wanted to reduce the number of options, I would make Start with no positives and developing leaders the only way to play. Most other mods with similar mechanisms did not try to make it optional and it worked fine for them. (FFH2) Or at least make it the default and turn them invisible.

To do so, however would require that the traits be structured properly to begin with.

I cannot say I think the original traits were much better. There were no negative traits at all and no negative qualities to positive traits nor positive qualities to negative traits.

That said, perhaps between the two of us (or anyone else here that cares) could perhaps have a more civil discussion that leads to implementing some hugely improved traits.

Dancing Huskold replied:
Originally Posted by JosEPh_II View Post
And how many Game Options we could also removed to reduce that glut too.
Don't forget the removing options breaks save games because which options are on/off is stored in a set of 1s and 0s in a single string. We can only set them and hide them. We can get rid of all the stuff activated by them though so that if people go into WB and change those options nothing will happen.

The one I would like to see worked on it the developing leader ones. I currently play with all traits off as that seems to give the AI better chance at survival. Although even then some don't expand while others do.

DH's reply to several posts
Originally Posted by strategyonly View Post
Where is that thread, pls??

Anything nowadays over 1 paragraph, i cant understand, sorry . . mind isnt what it used to be.. sorry
No idea. The developing leaders never get past the first level at the moment which is why I don't use it.

Originally Posted by Faustmouse View Post
What civ expand or not might have a connection to the settings in the leaderhead info. It would be interesting to know if there was a correlation, like there are the same 3 leaders that NEVER expand and then adjust them.
The current game I am playing, with no traits, the Japanese, Vikings and Persians are not expanding even though both had room to do so. The Hittites have expanded right up to their borders now. However in previous games each of those nations/leaders have expanded.

Originally Posted by Faustmouse View Post
And I think c2c has a problem of being "too nice". We want to please everyone, so we keep things modular and I got the impression that everything TB does has to be completely optional. Some flexibility is good, but too much and it will be a monster with no chance of balancing properly.
Probably my fault. I find combat tedious and boring most of the time. I also have a big problem with needing to keep track of large numbers of units. If crime, disease and pollution were optional or did not require units to combat then I would be more likely to not find combat a problem.
Dancing Hoskuld wrote:

Selecting no positive and no negative traits gives you just that. Every leader has no traits at all.

So from here we can continue the discussion.

JosEPh
 
Reserved for future




JosEPh
 
Reserved #2


JosEPh
 
@T-brd,
Until your set is ready do you have a problem if I go into Slick's set and "adjust" many of the Crime Modifiers and iUpkeep Modifiers on those Traits? I'll be working from my notes from back then and what I've found about crime so far currently.

JosEPh
 
No problem at all. I've just put this proposal forward to seed further discussion at this point. I should also work up a complete traits tags available list since a lot of tags were added afterwards. Some are bugged but should be easily fixed.
 
Holy Cow! Just loked in the Leaders xml and each Leader has an outrageous number of modifiers for each Leader. I see that diplomacy adds a great deal to that group. But all the ones with >0< that are integer based, are they truly necessary?

Each Leader have so many modifiers that it makes you wonder why Traits are even needed. Especially having 3 more sets of modifiers (each Trait assigned) to mod the Leader's base modifiers. :crazyeye: No wonder no one can explain how things work.:twitch::shake:

Is this much complexity worth it? You could have conflicting modifiers and not even know it.

JosEPh
 
Okay I need someone to help decipher this property staement:

Code:
<PropertyManipulators>
				<PropertySource>
					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
					<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
					<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
					<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
					<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
					<iAmountPerTurn>5</iAmountPerTurn>
					<Active>
						<Greater>
							<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
							<Mult>
								<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
								<Constant>2</Constant>
							</Mult>
						</Greater>
					</Active>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

Does this take the city pop and add 5 crime per pop and then multiplies it by 2?

So a size 3 city would be adding 15 Crime from pop alone and then that is X 2 so it = 30 Crime/turn?

And this is in addition to the Main Crime Property which assigns 4 Crime/pop to all Civs in the game.

Also on the Traits that have a 1 attached to the name, ex. Aggressive and then there is an Aggressive1, is the 1 used to differentiate between Focused Traits and Slicks traits?

JosEPh
 
Another one to decipher:

Code:
<PropertySource>
					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
					<PropertyType>PROPERTY_DISEASE</PropertyType>
					<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
					<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
					<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
					<iAmountPerTurn>8</iAmountPerTurn>
					<Active>
						<Greater>
							<PropertyType>PROPERTY_DISEASE</PropertyType>
							<Mult>
								<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
								<Constant>6</Constant>
							</Mult>
						</Greater>
					</Active>
				</PropertySource>

Is this multipling the Disease by 6?

JosEPh
 
Okay I need someone to help decipher this property staement:

Spoiler :
Code:
<PropertyManipulators>
				<PropertySource>
					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
					<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
					<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
					<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
					<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
					<iAmountPerTurn>5</iAmountPerTurn>
					<Active>
						<Greater>
							<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
							<Mult>
								<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
								<Constant>2</Constant>
							</Mult>
						</Greater>
					</Active>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

Does this take the city pop and add 5 crime per pop and then multiplies it by 2?

So a size 3 city would be adding 15 Crime from pop alone and then that is X 2 so it = 30 Crime/turn?

And this is in addition to the Main Crime Property which assigns 4 Crime/pop to all Civs in the game.

Also on the Traits that have a 1 attached to the name, ex. Aggressive and then there is an Aggressive1, used to differentiate between Focused Traits and Slicks traits?

JosEPh
It gives 5 crime per turn when the crime property of a city is greater than population*2
So a size 3 city would get +5 crime per turn if it already has a crime level of more than 6.
A size 10 city would get +5 crime per turn if it already has a crime level of more than 20.
Another one to decipher:

Spoiler :
Code:
<PropertySource>
					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
					<PropertyType>PROPERTY_DISEASE</PropertyType>
					<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
					<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
					<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
					<iAmountPerTurn>8</iAmountPerTurn>
					<Active>
						<Greater>
							<PropertyType>PROPERTY_DISEASE</PropertyType>
							<Mult>
								<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
								<Constant>6</Constant>
							</Mult>
						</Greater>
					</Active>
				</PropertySource>

Is this multipling the Disease by 6?

JosEPh

This gives 8 disease per turn when the disease property of a city is greater than population*6
 
Holy Cow! Just loked in the Leaders xml and each Leader has an outrageous number of modifiers for each Leader. I see that diplomacy adds a great deal to that group. But all the ones with >0< that are integer based, are they truly necessary?

Each Leader have so many modifiers that it makes you wonder why Traits are even needed. Especially having 3 more sets of modifiers (each Trait assigned) to mod the Leader's base modifiers. :crazyeye: No wonder no one can explain how things work.:twitch::shake:

Is this much complexity worth it? You could have conflicting modifiers and not even know it.

JosEPh
Many of those 0's should have values assigned and don't and that's been a flaw in the mod for a long time. I wanted to resolve all this with an easy archetype assignment system for leaders so that archetypes could be setup and established and would represent certain personality groupings that could be mixed and matched more simply by leader.

Most of the xml there is not values but rather are settings to create variation in the way the leader behaves. This is where the personality of the leader is rooted. Traits are the actual modifiers leaders obtain in game terms. On developing leaders, leaders will select traits based on their personalities, specifically based on their Flavor settings compared to flavor settings on the traits themselves.

Does this area need work? Oh yeah. But it was another project cut short when I was waiting on AIAndy to complete a portion of the project and he decided to fade off mid-project and RidetheSpiral was working on the xml for it and quit halfway through and never posted what he'd come up with.

I admit to being a little demanding of a more difficult solution than was perhaps necessary. Then again, I could create a solution for that too. But the fact of the matter is it's not an area I'm greatly concerned about yet.

If you want I could link you to that discussion.

Okay I need someone to help decipher this property staement:

Code:
<PropertyManipulators>
				<PropertySource>
					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
					<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
					<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
					<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
					<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
					<iAmountPerTurn>5</iAmountPerTurn>
					<Active>
						<Greater>
							<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
							<Mult>
								<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
								<Constant>2</Constant>
							</Mult>
						</Greater>
					</Active>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

Does this take the city pop and add 5 crime per pop and then multiplies it by 2?
Looks like it's +5 crime per round if the pop is over 2. Not 100% sure on that though. Easiest way to find out is to open the mod and check the pedia on that object. Should state things fairly accurately there.

And this is in addition to the Main Crime Property which assigns 4 Crime/pop to all Civs in the game.
Yes but it doesn't look like it's setting an amount per pop here. If I'm wrong there then I'd suppose it's saying +5 crime per 2 population. I always need to go off of the pedia and then comparable examples in code to work out how to use those condition tags.

Also on the Traits that have a 1 attached to the name, ex. Aggressive and then there is an Aggressive1, used to differentiate between Focused Traits and Slicks traits?

JosEPh
Now this is interesting. Traits without the 1 after them are differentiated from the versions of the traits that apply on developing leaders. If you aren't using developing leaders, then the ones without the 1 apply and if you are, then the ones with the 1 form the basis of the start of the trait tiers (and the way it was established up to this point is we don't yet have Aggressive2 for example.)

You'll notice that Traits with a 0 iLinePriority are the ones without the 1. Those are the traits used for games without Developing Leaders. The ones with a 1 have an iLinePriority of 1 (or -1 if they are negative traits.) Anything outside of iLinePriority 0 is used by Developing Leaders and ONLY iLinePriority 0 traits are used by the core. These were intended to let the core traits be stronger and let the developing traits be a bit softer hitting so they could be built onto by further trait assignments. We never got to that point of development.
 
How about the 2nd one for disease?

@Toffer,
So the 1st one for example, if your city is size 10 then it adds 5 Crime/turn when the Crime level hits 20 or 21? And for a size 1 city it adds 5 per turn as soon as crime level hits 2? Yikes!

Edit: T-brd responded and his answer is a bit different. Was afraid of this being the case.

JosEPh
 
How about the 2nd one for disease?

So the 1st one for example, if your city is size 10 then it adds 5 Crime/turn when the Crime level hits 20 or 21? And for a size 1 city it adds 5 per turn as soon as crime level hits 2? Yikes!

JosEPh

Yeah. Sounds like what Slick wanted out of it. Ufgh.
 
How about the 2nd one for disease?
I was fairly quick at editing in an answer for disease in my first response.

@Toffer,
So the 1st one for example, if your city is size 10 then it adds 5 Crime/turn when the Crime level hits 20 or 21? And for a size 1 city it adds 5 per turn as soon as crime level hits 2? Yikes!
Correct, it's a poorly made modifier.

Edit: T-brd responded and his answer is a bit different. Was afraid of this being the case.

JosEPh
TB is wrong in this case. I got quite familiar with those condition codes when working on civics in my modmod.
 
Thanks Toffer for both answers. And you too T-brd.

Gotta write this stuff down now and note the traits that had them. The Crime one is a prime example for change.

JosEPh
 
Here's another example for ya:
Spoiler :
Code:
			<PropertyManipulators>
				<PropertySource>
					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
					<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
					<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
					<iAmountPerTurn>
						<Mult>
							<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
							<iConstant>1</iConstant>
						</Mult>
					</iAmountPerTurn>
					<Active>
						<Greater>
							<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
							<Mult>
								<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
								<Constant>2</Constant>
							</Mult>
						</Greater>
					</Active>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>
This one gives 1 crime per population when crime gets bigger than population*2
 
Code:
<PropertyManipulators>
				<PropertySource>
					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
					<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
					<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
					<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
					<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
					<iAmountPerTurn>-6</iAmountPerTurn>
					<Active>
						<Greater>
							<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
							<Mult>
								<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
								<Constant>5</Constant>
							</Mult>
						</Greater>
					</Active>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

Got another one for you all. Seems this one is reducing crime by -6 Crime/turn but I can decipher at what parameter. Pop by 5 or Pop x5?


JosEPh
 
Sorry for misstating. I'm still not good with programming with conditional tags. Thanks for correcting me there Toffer!

Here is the review in its last known state.
I've put it all on the document now. Except for updating with the newest tags that were added to these infos that were in the works to greatly alter this initial setup plan.

The plan for these was for this to form the core and guide me through the process of turning these traits into layered trait selections for Developing Leaders. For now, even just what I have here I would suggest implementing (or at least discussing to the point where we CAN implement something based on this design). We could then playtest it a bit and see how it goes in-game and could guide to further adjustments and buy us (me) time to re-audit the whole structure.

The primary complaints about this suggested traits structure were:
  • Too many traits defined - I don't think this is a bad thing. C2C is about lots of options. As long as those options are meaningful and balanced then it should do little more than make it so that players will want to explore many new ways to form their leaders.

  • Too many modifiers or elements to each trait - I suppose with some they could be reduced but I don't think it's too excessive with this proposal really. Many modifiers are filling gaps to keep things better balanced. There's a lot of things traits can alter and I've tried to keep the modifiers very true to the effects of a nation being ruled by such a leader.

  • Traits are too strong - They may be. They may not be. It remains to be seen imo.

  • They are too symmetrical - That was really the whole intention of the proposal was to keep things in a symmetrical sense of balance between all trait options. SGT Slick preferred a more haphazard benefits vs penalties arrangement on each trait. In fact, you'll notice that negative traits are all opposites of existing positive traits and if setup the way I was going to, you can't TAKE a negative trait that's directly opposed to an opposite you already have and vice versa.

That's where the main disagreements in design philosophies took place that couldn't be resolved with options like Pure Traits (eliminates all positive aspects on negative traits and removes all negative aspects on positive traits) and No Negative traits.
 
Spoiler :
Code:
<PropertyManipulators>
				<PropertySource>
					<PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_ATTRIBUTE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
					<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
					<GameObjectType>GAMEOBJECT_CITY</GameObjectType>
					<RelationType>RELATION_ASSOCIATED</RelationType>
					<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
					<iAmountPerTurn>-6</iAmountPerTurn>
					<Active>
						<Greater>
							<PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
							<Mult>
								<AttributeType>ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION</AttributeType>
								<Constant>5</Constant>
							</Mult>
						</Greater>
					</Active>
				</PropertySource>
			</PropertyManipulators>

Got another one for you all. Seems this one is reducing crime by -6 Crime/turn but I can decipher at what parameter. Pop by 5 or Pop x5?
JosEPh

-6 crime per turn when crime level is higher than population*5
pop-10 city: -6 crime when crime level is above 50
 
@Toffer,

Thanks again. I'll eventually get this down and lined up in my head. :)

So these few examples from various traits help understand why certain leaders struggle early game and others don't when it comes to crime or diseases. Get a combo of traits with 2 or 3 of these heavy handed crime ones and you can be sinking fast in the early game. Especially when I 1st lowered the Individual Crimes MinCrime levels and Preh Era had 15 Crimes exposed during the era's length. Now with only 6 Crimes revealed in Preh with Looting being moved to Class Era it should be a lessening of the chance of being overwhelmed by crime early game for some of the AI.

Still more to do though.

JosEPh
 
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