JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
This thread is started at StrategyOnly's request over the ongoing discussion about the Trait system in C2C and how it is impacting the AI and the Mod's performance.
This quote from myself was the starting point of the discussions.
To which Thunderbrd replied:
T-brd's reply:
So from here we can continue the discussion.
JosEPh
This quote from myself was the starting point of the discussions.
JosEPh wrote:
I've got pages of notes on his Traits and what his traits for each leader did over the base Leader Traits we had before his was put in. Want a Super duper Leader, Pick Hammurabi or Julius Caesar, can't go wrong with either one as they have virtually No downsides but plenty of Up. Or maybe you want to challenge your self, well then pick Charlemagne, Joao, Qin Shi Huang, or Victoria. They all have enough Malus to make them range from 155 to 175% Worse than Hammurabi or 140% to 160% worse than Julius in upkeep alone (iUpkeep Modifier).
You want extra Crime every turn from your Leader just pick Sitting Bull or Red Cloud both at +15/turn for every city you own (iirc).
Of the 68 Leaders I profiled only 11 had iUpkeep Modifier under a 100% increase. And Hammurabi is the only one that actually decreases the upkeep mod. 57 Other leaders give you a 100% to 170% Increase in Upkeep as well as other problems like Siting Bull and Red Cloud have (there are plenty other that add Crime per turn as well as these 2.
And then we have several that have a weird formula about crime that I never got a straight answer form Sgt Slick about. Goes something like this, for every Pop you have over 10 the current crime level you have is multiplied by -3/2Crime/turn and added back into the Crime total (I think, as I could never get a verification over it from anyone including Slick).
Another one for you, if you have an Aggressive Leader then once you let your Crime level hit 200 it adds +10 Crime/turn to every city you own. Ever wonder why TWs are built like crazy using the very Traits T-brd above says does a good job? (Not picking on you T-brd but glad you did chime in with an set that does back "some of this craziness" off somewhat.)
I wanted to build a chart years ago (but didn't know how) to show what changes were happening under Sgt's changes to Leader Traits. (Basically he wanted everyone to play C2C at the Deity level from Noble on up with minimum Gold for everyone including the AI.) But when I would come here and question what was going on I got cursed at by him. (Maybe some of you modders might remember that, maybe not. I was basically told to leave him alone.)
That is why for a long time now I won't check any Leader Trait Option boxes except for the occasional game with Focused Option by ls612. ls612 Knew what Slick was doing and disagreed with him over it too. So he built an Alternate set, Focused Traits. The very one you want to get rid of SO.
Edit: Sidenote on Crime and Hydro's implementation of it. Hydro (after SGT Slick added in the new Trait system) was doing all his testing for getting his crime values (for bldgs, Individual Crimes, and any other place he added crime to thru the Property system) and Gold Modifiers with Julius Caesar as his Leader. Julius only has a 15% increase in UPkeep modifier and a +60% increase in Trade iYield (1st iYield). So all his testing was unbalanced because he used the 2nd best Leader available.
To which Thunderbrd replied:
SO asked me to stop working on traits mid-project and get back to the combat mod. Had I not, we'd have a suitable option and not ls612's BS or Slick's BS. Both are BS imo. Just sayin'. Slicks' is the default. And I was never able to complete my set or even begin to put it to xml. I have a spreadsheet still but I think I'd be able to come up with something a little softer than my original workup.
But again... not getting sidetracked until there's a break in the plans. Probably should get it done soon though.
As a side note, I did develop a lot of interesting new tags for my trait set and they never have been used.
If you and I agree that the sets are BS and SO wants Focused removed, then maybe we need a consensus from the rest of the team to Start removing both sets of Leader traits and re-install the Original Leader Traits the Mod started with. Yes it will reduce the Leader's effects upon the Empire he leads. But it would remove so Much Overhead. And how many Game Options we could also removed to reduce that glut too. Some may call this idea unwanted/uneccessary fat trimming, but it's bad, bad fat that makes balancing the Mod so much harder to do.
JosEPh
Faustmouse
I agree with Joseph. I don't play with traits anymore because it makes the game harder. I do love the idea of developing leaderheads (that was one of my favourite add-ons in c2c) but with the current set of traits it is boring since you always pick the same ones...
T-brd's reply:
Only the Focused Traits represents another set. The rest of the options are to appease differing opinions. Personally, if it were me, and we all wanted to reduce the number of options, I would make Start with no positives and developing leaders the only way to play. Most other mods with similar mechanisms did not try to make it optional and it worked fine for them. (FFH2) Or at least make it the default and turn them invisible.
To do so, however would require that the traits be structured properly to begin with.
I cannot say I think the original traits were much better. There were no negative traits at all and no negative qualities to positive traits nor positive qualities to negative traits.
That said, perhaps between the two of us (or anyone else here that cares) could perhaps have a more civil discussion that leads to implementing some hugely improved traits.
Dancing Huskold replied:
Don't forget the removing options breaks save games because which options are on/off is stored in a set of 1s and 0s in a single string. We can only set them and hide them. We can get rid of all the stuff activated by them though so that if people go into WB and change those options nothing will happen.Originally Posted by JosEPh_II View Post
And how many Game Options we could also removed to reduce that glut too.
The one I would like to see worked on it the developing leader ones. I currently play with all traits off as that seems to give the AI better chance at survival. Although even then some don't expand while others do.
DH's reply to several posts
No idea. The developing leaders never get past the first level at the moment which is why I don't use it.Originally Posted by strategyonly View Post
Where is that thread, pls??
Anything nowadays over 1 paragraph, i cant understand, sorry . . mind isnt what it used to be.. sorry
The current game I am playing, with no traits, the Japanese, Vikings and Persians are not expanding even though both had room to do so. The Hittites have expanded right up to their borders now. However in previous games each of those nations/leaders have expanded.Originally Posted by Faustmouse View Post
What civ expand or not might have a connection to the settings in the leaderhead info. It would be interesting to know if there was a correlation, like there are the same 3 leaders that NEVER expand and then adjust them.
Probably my fault. I find combat tedious and boring most of the time. I also have a big problem with needing to keep track of large numbers of units. If crime, disease and pollution were optional or did not require units to combat then I would be more likely to not find combat a problem.Originally Posted by Faustmouse View Post
And I think c2c has a problem of being "too nice". We want to please everyone, so we keep things modular and I got the impression that everything TB does has to be completely optional. Some flexibility is good, but too much and it will be a monster with no chance of balancing properly.
Dancing Hoskuld wrote:
Selecting no positive and no negative traits gives you just that. Every leader has no traits at all.
So from here we can continue the discussion.
JosEPh