'OCC' Deity Domination Discussion

budweiser

budweiser

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I know you cant have a true OCC domination game unless you check the box. But I think this makes it a little too easy for the human if you do. So I would like to discuss how to approach an unchecked OCC pangea domination game on the highest level. I envision a scenario where you are raising any non caps as fast as you can and you are keeping only the caps as puppets. You cannot annex.

Which civ would you choose? I know Egypt and the Huns can clear a map petty quickly, but I think that could be an all or nothing proposition.

I have a civ in mind and if I can make it work with them I will issue a challenge map. In the mean time I would like to discuss other options.
 
Civs with great range UU are obviously good for that. Arabia mongols and china seems like the most obvious choices besides huns. Especially considering that you can start to conquer with their ancient era version of their UU.
 
You should also disallow conquest, marriage, purchase of city states.

For OCC I would like to suggest Greece. It does not have a game breaking UU but it is able to get much more culture, science, faith and units that the one city cannot produce on its own. Another one is obviously Babylon.

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I'd take Siam over Greece in this case. Good UU and decent UB. Not that it matters. From my experience culture is not a problem with OCC. You get plenty of SP's. Besides, with all the wonders and GW you take from AI, you are pretty much guaranteed to get more culture than you actually need. Also food is somewhat redundant in this type of OCC, imo. If you want a giant capital, just send caravans from your puppets. Why would you want empire-wide growth?
 
Yes, I was thinking of Greece as a possibility, but there is also another, and I like the idea of Siam.

Food caravans from the puppet to the cap would be a no-no because we are trying to stay as close to OCC as possible.
 
The Pilgrim said:
I'd take Siam over Greece in this case. Good UU and decent UB. Not that it matters. From my experience culture is not a problem with OCC. You get plenty of SP's. Besides, with all the wonders and GW you take from AI, you are pretty much guaranteed to get more culture than you actually need. Also food is somewhat redundant in this type of OCC, imo. If you want a giant capital, just send caravans from your puppets. Why would you want empire-wide growth?
Click to expand...

Siam and Greece are similar but I will give the reasons why Greece is superior for an OCC domination victory.

1. Quantity of culture and food don't matter much in OCC, which is 2/3 of Siam's UA.
2. Its not the quantity of resources that matter but the number of CSes you are allied to. Greece can invest less resources to get the same number of allied Cses than Siam. You want as many CSes to be fighting the enemy and not you.
3. Siam does not get extra bonus for scholasticism which is the key for OCC science. More CS ally = more science from scholasticism.
4. More CS ally = more unit gifts, which is something Siam doesn't get bonuses on either.
5. Hoplites can get you an early capital very easily for you to run a two city empire from the start.
6. Greece units heal 20 hp in CSes even when not allied.
 
budweiser said:
Yes, I was thinking of Greece as a possibility, but there is also another, and I like the idea of Siam.

Food caravans from the puppet to the cap would be a no-no because we are trying to stay as close to OCC as possible.
Click to expand...

Well, puppets eat up science and happiness, so I think it's a fair trade off. On one hand they hurt you overall development, on the other they make up for that by helping the capital to grow bigger. But that's your challenge and your rules. :)

What I think is more important than caravans, though, is roads. Are we allowed to build them?


Vitruvius said:
Siam and Greece are similar but I will give the reasons why Greece is superior for an OCC domination victory.

1. Quantity of culture and food don't matter much in OCC, which is 2/3 of Siam's UA.
2. Its not the quantity of resources that matter but the number of CSes you are allied to. Greece can invest less resources to get the same number of allied Cses than Siam. You want as many CSes to be fighting the enemy and not you.
3. Siam does not get extra bonus for scholasticism which is the key for OCC science. More CS ally = more science from scholasticism.
4. More CS ally = more unit gifts, which is something Siam doesn't get bonuses on either.
5. Hoplites can get you an early capital very easily for you to run a two city empire from the start.
6. Greece units heal 20 hp in CSes even when not allied.
Click to expand...

The thing is that early in the game I can only befriend/ally a couple of CS (through quests) and will get more from them as Siam. As the game progresses, I tend to ally every single CS on the map pretty much regardless what civ I play. I honestly don't think Greece UA is that strong. However, I might be proven wrong by trial and error. I am up for the challenge sometimes next week. :)
 
Is unit upgrading allowed only in capitol like in true OCC style? How about unit healing only in capitol or neutral territory? Unit healing shouldnt however be big issue because of pillaging tiles.

Also should all non luxury tiles be pillaged in captured capitols? At least all strategic resources should be pillaged in other cities. Otherwise you can have too many camels or keshiks compared to true OCC.

Edit: Big no to connecting roads to boost your economy.If you want road you can still build it but it cannot connect cities? And ofcourse you can only send caravans from your capitol if you want it as similar as possible to true OCC.

Edit2: All copies of duplicate luxuries should also be pillaged in captured cities.
 
In OCC you can't upgrade units in another place than capitol. Because cities you conquest are instant raze. So there's no home territories to upgrade them.
 
I dont understand this thread, there had been discussion before that u CAN do superfast deity wins with civs like HUNS/Egypt.
But u need a suited map for that.

For a consistent win i am m pretty sure that arab/Mongols are best.

OCC or not doesnt matter for all these civs. As you do is just spam UUs anyway.

Civs like China or England d be hurt a lot due to not being able to upgrade away from cap
 
The Pilgrim said:
Well, puppets eat up science and happiness, so I think it's a fair trade off. On one hand they hurt you overall development, on the other they make up for that by helping the capital to grow bigger. But that's your challenge and your rules. :)

What I think is more important than caravans, though, is roads. Are we allowed to build them?




The thing is that early in the game I can only befriend/ally a couple of CS (through quests) and will get more from them as Siam. As the game progresses, I tend to ally every single CS on the map pretty much regardless what civ I play. I honestly don't think Greece UA is that strong. However, I might be proven wrong by trial and error. I am up for the challenge sometimes next week. :)
Click to expand...

Greece's UA is simply sick ... Yes, you can ally all CS with everyone, but you need to constantly spend cash to maintain it, while with Greece the influence basicly never drops when you open Patronage ... So you can spend all your money on units and buildings, while rigging elections in the few cities where you have any competition.
 
dragonxxx said:
Greece's UA is simply sick ... Yes, you can ally all CS with everyone, but you need to constantly spend cash to maintain it, while with Greece the influence basicly never drops when you open Patronage ... So you can spend all your money on units and buildings, while rigging elections in the few cities where you have any competition.
Click to expand...

With Siam you have a much higher chance to found religion and kick start your capital. Which would be huge. And a badass UU, which is effective for a long time. Purchasing buildings in single city is not gonna happen, obviously, and units - you only need so many of them. I prefer a highly promoted efficient army, rather than instant supply of cannon fodder. Especially since I can't purchase them outside my capital. Buying CS is just a very natural way to spend money for me. Like I said, even with Alex in the game, I rarely have too tough of a competition over CS.

Anyways, this argument is pretty pointless, in my opinion. Both of them lose to any civ with good ranged UU and all the civs in the game lose to baby keshiks speed-wise.
 
The Pilgrim said:
Well, puppets eat up science and happiness, so I think it's a fair trade off. On one hand they hurt you overall development, on the other they make up for that by helping the capital to grow bigger. But that's your challenge and your rules. :)

What I think is more important than caravans, though, is roads. Are we allowed to build them?




The thing is that early in the game I can only befriend/ally a couple of CS (through quests) and will get more from them as Siam. As the game progresses, I tend to ally every single CS on the map pretty much regardless what civ I play. I honestly don't think Greece UA is that strong. However, I might be proven wrong by trial and error. I am up for the challenge sometimes next week. :)
Click to expand...

Puppets actually contribute to science for much of the game. Here's a rough calculation:

Cost of chivalry for occ: 485
Cost of chivalry with one puppet: 485x1.05 = 509.25

Capital science with 10 pop and a library: 15bpt
Turns to research chivalry: 485/15 = 32.33

Puppet science with 4 pop and no library: 4 x 0.75 = 3bpt
Total science with capital: 15 + 3 = 18 bpt
Turns to research chivalry = 509.25/18 = 28.29
 
Uhm... no... Of course if you have a tiny pop 10 capital without NC ;) (and you forgot the palace as well) and a giant (compared to the capital) pop 4 puppet, it will generate more than 5% of your total science. But how long will it be able to keep up? As your cap grows your total science grows. If we only keep AI's capitals (we should I guess), I am sure they'll contribute their share (crappy cities won't obviously) even though barely.
I remember in my last Venice game the best puppets with big population and all science buildings contributed just about 5% of the total. ~65 beakers maybe. The smaller ones were unable to justify their existence at all. And if that's not enough, puppets eat up the happiness and indirectly limit the growth of the capital - your main science source.

Btw, do costs increase for cities you raze too? Apparently, I never cared enough to notice. :crazyeye:
 
The Pilgrim said:
Uhm... no... Of course if you have a tiny pop 10 capital without NC ;) (and you forgot the palace as well) and a giant (compared to the capital) pop 4 puppet, it will generate more than 5% of your total science. But how long will it be able to keep up? As your cap grows your total science grows. If we only keep AI's capitals (we should I guess), I am sure they'll contribute their share (crappy cities won't obviously) even though barely.
I remember in my last Venice game the best puppets with big population and all science buildings contributed just about 5% of the total. ~65 beakers maybe. The smaller ones were unable to justify their existence at all. And if that's not enough, puppets eat up the happiness and indirectly limit the growth of the capital - your main science source.

Btw, do costs increase for cities you raze too? Apparently, I never cared enough to notice. :crazyeye:
Click to expand...

First of all size of cap doesn't matter in the math. The 4 pop no library puppet will make researching Chivalry faster regardless of capital size.

Second, 4 pop no library puppet is already a conservative estimate. Usually AI deity caps are over 10 pop by the time you capture it and may already come with a library.

Of course the cost will scale in Rennaisance. My example applies specifically to classical/medieval era domination. By Rennaisance you should already have established enough dominance over the remaining civs that science don't matter.
 
Vitruvius said:
First of all size of cap doesn't matter in the math. The 4 pop no library puppet will make researching Chivalry faster regardless of capital size.

Second, 4 pop no library puppet is already a conservative estimate. Usually AI deity caps are over 10 pop by the time you capture it and may already come with a library.
Click to expand...

Capital size matters since it determines your total science output and thus the cut-off point at which puppets no longer 'pay' for themselves.

Vitruvius said:
Of course the cost will scale in Rennaisance. My example applies specifically to classical/medieval era domination. By Rennaisance you should already have established enough dominance over the remaining civs that science don't matter.
Click to expand...

I'd love to see this kind of total dominance with only one city. :rolleyes: I am not that confident about my skill. I need to push science pretty hard with 3-4 large cities to stay competitive in Renaissance.
 
The Pilgrim said:
Capital size matters since it determines your total science output and thus the cut-off point at which puppets no longer 'pay' for themselves.



I'd love to see this kind of total dominance with only one city. :rolleyes: I am not that confident about my skill. I need to push science pretty hard with 3-4 large cities to stay competitive in Renaissance.
Click to expand...

I was specifically referring to the Hun's for such total dominance which is totally possible to end the game before chivalry.

As for the puppet science, I am not sure how it works. Doesn't science cost increase apply to the tech itself? So if a tech cost 100 then with 1 puppet the tech will cost 105. If your capital produces 100 science then your puppet will have to produce 5 to match it in order to still research the tech in 1 turn. But if your capital produces 50 then all your puppet has to do is produce 2.5 to still research the tech in 2 turns. But in the early mid game, you wouldn't get that much science from the capital.
 
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