Random idea

Ahriman · Jul 3, 2008

It would be cool if you could use a Great Sage to found the wind magics colleges. Reduce their science bonus though.

Also, why does the Empire get horse archers? They have enough as it is (unlimited halbardiers! yeouch.) Feels out of character for them.

rocklikeafool · Jul 3, 2008

Ahriman said:
Also, why does the Empire get horse archers? They have enough as it is (unlimited halbardiers! yeouch.) Feels out of character for them.

I agree. Maybe someone should look at it. *Looks for WH team*

Ahriman · Jul 3, 2008

Also, AI needs to put higher weight on the Magic Winds wonders, or on Education, Universities and Observatories. As the empire without much of a tech lead I'm able to acquire and build all of the Winds techs despite 10 AI players (ok, minus the two I killed), which lets me build ridiculous numbers of mages and to field truly heinous numbers of tier3 archmages.

Count up all their high level units, they get far more than any other faction (though obviously most factions aren't done). 3 steamtanks, 10 handgunners, 10 cavalry, 10 knights (plus more for grail knights), unlimited halbards, 3 ironclads, 10 longbowmen, 10 crossbowmen, 3 Greatswords, 5 great cannoncs. Compare to Woodelves, another "mostly done" faction who get 10 longbowmen, 10 knights, 4 eagle knights, 1 treeman, 5 boltthrowers, 3 royal guard. Anything else?
(Might be wrong on a few of these and missing some units).

*Edit*
Missing war chariots, and griffons/unicorns.
Also, rather than war chariots, could the Empire get Imperial War Wagons?

frenzyslave · Jul 4, 2008

Ahriman said:
Also, why does the Empire get horse archers? They have enough as it is (unlimited halbardiers! yeouch.) Feels out of character for them.

They got horse archers because horse archers were used in the Empire, as expensive fanatic poppers. But the horse archers are Kislev, and since there is a Kislev civ...

However the Empire army list also have outriders, which are kinda horse archers but have guns.

Ahriman · Jul 4, 2008

Empire gets cavalry in this mod, which are horsemen with guns.
I'd take the horsearchers away. We don't want the Empire to have everything, and every other human race to just have some subset of what the Empire gets.

rocklikeafool · Jul 5, 2008

Ahriman said:
Empire gets cavalry in this mod, which are horsemen with guns.
I'd take the horsearchers away. We don't want the Empire to have everything, and every other human race to just have some subset of what the Empire gets.

If I guess right, the Empire aren't sposed to have Cavalry. I don't think anyone is.
But yeah, I think they shouldn't have horse archers.

Ahriman · Jul 5, 2008

Well, clearly someone is intended to get cavalry... its a mod-specific unit granted by the gunpowder tech with its only unit graphic and terrain penalties, not the vanilla civ cavalry.

rocklikeafool · Jul 5, 2008

Ahriman said:
Well, clearly someone is intended to get cavalry... its a mod-specific unit granted by the gunpowder tech with its only unit graphic and terrain penalties, not the vanilla civ cavalry.

Hmm...ok, maybe so. Sorry, I've been here since like v0.11. So, I guess I'm too used to seein units that I'm not sure are mod specific. Cuz there's used to be like 20 units that weren't mod specific. But to be sure, can a WH team member clear this up?

frenzyslave · Jul 5, 2008

Empire do have cavalry. Its in their army list (called Ouriders, or another unit called Pistoliers). The Empire has the most flexible army list that I have ever seen, but none of those units are particularly awe inspiring save their war machines and access to the colleges of magic. Their knights are basic knights - just with a cool name (and Brettonian knights and Cold One riders would wipe the floor with them). Their greatswords are their best melee unit, but Executioners etc would just easily wipe the floor with them. Empire armies are incredibly diverse, yet very average troops.

None of their units come from Tilea, or Estalia. The Empire units are from well, the Empire and Kislev. However not much inspiration comes from Kislev (the horse archers).

As for magic, well the Empire invented the colleges of magic, all 8 of them to my knowledge. However for balance, maybe limit it to 4 and have Kislev have the rest or something.

rocklikeafool · Jul 6, 2008

frenzyslave said:
As for magic, well the Empire invented the colleges of magic, all 8 of them to my knowledge. However for balance, maybe limit it to 4 and have Kislev have the rest or something.

Tho, as it is, certain other civs (for example, the DE can build Colleges of Death and Shadow) can build one or two, usually those that line up with their specific philosophy on life (WEs=nature, DEs=Chaos a la Cult of Khaine, etc.). It is only fair imho that you give other civs a chance to build the colleges. But, naturally, it's unlikely that anyone but the Empire will ever build the colleges. Tho, when I play, I tend to try to build the one or two available to me.

rocklikeafool · Jul 6, 2008

frenzyslave said:
Empire do have cavalry. Its in their army list (called Ouriders, or another unit called Pistoliers). The Empire has the most flexible army list that I have ever seen, but none of those units are particularly awe inspiring save their war machines and access to the colleges of magic. Their knights are basic knights - just with a cool name (and Brettonian knights and Cold One riders would wipe the floor with them). Their greatswords are their best melee unit, but Executioners etc would just easily wipe the floor with them. Empire armies are incredibly diverse, yet very average troops.

I've noticed their 'averageness' in the mod, which is certainly up to par with the armybooks. And, yeah, the Empire doesn't specialize in anythin (except their cannons and seige units and the colleges of magic), but do everythin averagely. The reason they're successful in WH lore is cuz they have a large army and good generals. The good generals bein the key. After all, if the enemy's general outwits your general, you are f*cked.

frenzyslave · Jul 6, 2008

Ive seen numerous ai build the colleges, so they do have a chance. Some civs have no restriction as to build colleges (Empire, Kislev and Tilea can form all for sure), Cathay can only build Heavens (which ive seen them do), and Ind and Araby can build none. Ive also seen the wood elves (who can build 2) build them.

Perhaps too many civs are restricted to colleges, and that is why it only seems like the Empire builds them?

rocklikeafool · Jul 6, 2008

frenzyslave said:
Perhaps too many civs are restricted to colleges, and that is why it only seems like the Empire builds them?

That's wat I mean. However, I wouldn't change the restrictions cuz doin so would make it horribly innaccuate. And it's already pressin the inaccuracy quite a bit. So, I say leave it as is please, for balance's sake.

Ahriman · Jul 6, 2008

That's wat I mean. However, I wouldn't change the restrictions cuz doin so would make it horribly innaccuate. And it's already pressin the inaccuracy quite a bit. So, I say leave it as is please, for balance's sake.

Balance is one thing the status quo does not have. Remember that I can get a full set of National unit level 2 casters (buildable) and level 3 casters *for every college I build*.
So if I build 4 colleges, thats 16 archmages I can have. Compare that to any of the factions (including elves) who can only get one type of archmage.
Stacking the colleges together in a super-city also gets very very nasty, since they all give +2 xp for sorcery units, combine with standing army and a settled great general.... and I can be building level 4 or 5 units out of the gate.

So, even if all the colleges are available, perhaps there is some way of limiting each faction to only being able to build say 2 of them?

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 6, 2008

id prefer if we made all archmage level units take up the SAME national unit slots, so you should still only be aloud 3 archmages, even if you have 7 colleges, you would just have to prioritise which ones you want to be best at. not too sure how to do this though. as for the 2 EXP from the colleges, thats the point. and they arnt cheap and have rather LARGE building requirements, so the EXP dosnt seem like a bigie to me.

rocklikeafool · Jul 6, 2008

Psychic_Llamas said:
id prefer if we made all archmage level units take up the SAME national unit slots, so you should still only be aloud 3 archmages, even if you have 7 colleges, you would just have to prioritise which ones you want to be best at.

I think there should be 5 archmage slots. But I think there should be a limit. Unfortunately, I've no idea how to do it either. I'm not too good at anythin but XML and playtestin, and I've no idea how to do it in XML.

Ahriman · Jul 6, 2008

I would be fine with the Xp bonuses if we could limit a team to 5 archmages total across all types, and maybe 5 tier2 mages +1 per college building you control. I can't think of a simple way to achieve this, but I have no idea how national units and caps really work.

A possible alternative would be to limit a faction to founding 2 colleges, but I can't see an easy way to do this either.

rocklikeafool · Jul 6, 2008

I'd go for 7 teir 2 mages. Cuz that'd make the archmages more rare. Then 10 teir 1 mages. That way you can, if you choose, have a good force of mages. It also would be a force with some diversity. Such can potentially reduce the amount of boredom, the kinda boredom that might be caused by not nough spells bein available to a certain civ.

And, Ahriman, it's quite easy to limit the amount of colleges that can be founded. Simply make it so that certain civs can't get all the winds of magic techs, a la the limitation of the Skaven magic to the Skaven and Gut Magic to the Ogres, etc. In fact, it's already been done for some civs, most poignant example bein the DEs, which is smart. So, imo, as it is, the limitations on how many colleges each civ can build should stay the way there are.

Ahriman · Jul 6, 2008

That is a poor solution, since it forces *which* two colleges a particular race has access to. While clearly there are some races that only have 1-2 sensible in-theme magics that suit them, that is hardly true for all factions.
I would far prefer a situation where for eg the Empire could only found 2 colleges, but could choose them from *any* two colleges of the Winds magic.
Perhaps there is some way to remove the ability to build any of the colleges if the faction already controls two or more magic colleges.

frenzyslave · Jul 7, 2008

Ahriman said:
I would far prefer a situation where for eg the Empire could only found 2 colleges, but could choose them from *any* two colleges of the Winds magic.
Perhaps there is some way to remove the ability to build any of the colleges if the faction already controls two or more magic colleges.

After one college is formed, it seems ludicrous that a rival school of thought springs up. Then another, and another. You would have thought some archmages from the first college would go "No. That totally goes against what we teach. This way works perfectly, and your way is contradictory and blasphemous." Then you would have thought that they would develop some sort of mage council to block and discredit new unorthodox students from learning the new art.

Always wondered why 8 schools would develop, some of which are very contradictory to each other...

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