New Random Seed on Reload

Serenity42

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
58
I've seen people make mention of whether or not they use it, but it leaves an important question open:

What does this random seed do? For what is it responsible during gameplay? And why would you want to re-generate it?

In most of the games I've ever dealt with, the seed is used only when the map is generated. After that, changing it has no effect whatsoever. Does CIV4 use its seed for more than just map generation and distribution of bonuses?
 
New Random Seed on Reload means that everytime you launch a save the game will get a new Random seed. The Random Seed is a number that feeds the ( pseudo ) random number generator of the game, and as the random number generator is used for a lot of things in Civ ( since AI exploring paths ( and yours if you put the units in auto-explore ) to combat results, passing by the Great person type you get if you have a non pure Great person points pool ), if you use a new random seed everytime you load a save, you can get dramatically diferent results even if doing exactly the same things , unlike it happen with the default option, that , if you do exactly the same things, you'll get exactly the same results.

This was made this way because in previous versions of Civilization, where you had new random seeds everytime you loaded a save, some people simply reloaded the game in some battles with low odds until they hitted a lucky one and won....... probably a lot of stories of :spear: ( legendary issue of civ III, where a lot of people complained that sometimes the spear ( one of the weakest units ) could beat a tank ( one of the strongest ) ) come from there :p
 
probably a lot of stories of ( legendary issue of civ III, where a lot of people complained that sometimes the spear ( one of the weakest units ) could beat a tank ( one of the strongest ) ) come from there :p

That one, I'm familiar with. In spades. I've been with CIV since the very beginning, playing CIV 1 on a monochrome monitor using a computer that I swear we had to pedal. :crazyeye:

Okay, so the seed is responsible for adding a bit of an uncertainty factor into the combat success calculations, but two very mismatched units (say, spear and tank again - why not? :hammer2:) will still usually see the same combat outcome since one is so severely outclassed - there will just be a tiny outside chance that the underdog will come through. Right?
 
The tank vs spearman debate does NOT arise from reloading, it arises from the poor design of the combat system, which makes such things frighteningly common occurrences. I don't remember the odds, but a regular spearman could defeat a regular tank about 1 time in 10 or 20, something that aggravated quite a lot of players and drove several redesigns of the combat system.

The Seed is simply a number, and if you place this number into the random number generator, you'll get a certain sequence of random numbers out. You can see this effect in games which allow you to choose a map based on its number - there isn't a big database of maps indexed to numbers, it's simply that the number you supply starts a chain of the same random numbers, which means the map always gets drawn the same, or in the case of Civ, that if you make all your choices the same, the RNG will make all its choices the same too.

As far as you're concerned, it's still random.

Generating a new Seed allows you to reload a lost 99.9% battle, or regenerate a GP that had a 99% chance of being the one you wanted, or even the AI maybe deciding whether or not to pester you about something stupid. This "New Seed" is chosen with a different RNG, so the sequence of events changes and seems more random again.
 
And why would you want to re-generate it?
I don't think this question was answered directly.

On the one hand, the new random seed is a form of cheating. Don't like how that battle turned out? Reload, and if you have this option on, things may turn out differently. Didn't get the Great Person you wanted? Reload, you'll probably get him the second time around.

But then again, that sword has two cutting edges. If you made a desperate gamble and won a battle against high odds, it probably won't happen the 2nd time. If you got the Great Engineer you wanted despite having a 77% chance of a Great Prophet, again, a reload will probably give you a GP.

I like to use it in my off-line games because it actually keeps me honest most of the time, surprise surprise. I fight big wars with lots of units and inevitably in every battle I win a couple of fights against long odds (often, it's having a siege weapon or mounted unit withdraw successfully despite the odds against it). So if I then lose, say, a CR III Mace in a 90% odds battle versus a Longbow, if I reload that turn I may keep the Maceman but lose a few more siege or mounted units. The same thing goes for beneficial random events, goody huts, and great people; if I reload from a previous save, I may not get those things happening again.

I sometimes reload a previous save from many, many turns back to try a different strategy and learn what works best. Here the random seed helps keep the game feeling fresh rather than being a predictable rehash of what went before.

But there is still that cheating element to it. I try to resist, but sometimes, when I get a half-dozen barbarians popping from a hut, my will-power to resist a re-load gets challenged... :blush:
 
It cuts both ways. You could, constantly wage a war of mideaveal units vs modern weapons and come out on top, just by reloading the random seed for every battle until you won all of them - although this would take MANY reloads.
I am not sure, but I think the random seed may also affect random events occuring and resources popping. So again, you could reload until you pop a resource at a mine every turn/ hit a positive random event every turn
 
But then again, that sword has two cutting edges. If you made a desperate gamble and won a battle against high odds, it probably won't happen the 2nd time.

Win a battle against high odds?? now that is a new idea!! well for me anyway, but definately not a new idea for the AI.

i would consider myself very lucky to win a battle with odds of 70% in my favour! anything below that i would have no expectation at all of winning, it would just be a suicide attack with little consequence either way if it won or lost. Therefore i have no reason to attempt reloading for 'desperate' odds, i usually do all my reloading for some of the masses of losses where the odds are above 95% in my favour.

When your as unlucky as i am in civ4, 70% odds translate into aproximately 40% odds of victory.

What happens when you loose a battle and the odds are 96% in your favour and you dont have random seed.... reloading will not give you a different result, hec, even using a different unit will not give you different result (unless that unit has even greater combat odds). So basically that enemy unit has a 'lucky' combat outcome attached to it when you reload the game without random seed. The way around that is you can refrain from attacking for 1 turn and try again the next turn or you can hit it with suicide units.
 
70% will win 70% of the time without exception. Just be glad you're actually attacking at high odds.

Now what I don't like is the complication of unit damage with the RNG - specifically attacking archers (or even regular units!) with something that is unlikely to win like a chariot (I have actually won attacking an archer fortified on a hill with a chariot, but I wouldn't be my life on it happening very often). The problem is, sometimes (RARELY) the chariot wins. Sometimes, it does damage and dies. Sometimes, IT DOES ZERO DAMAGE AT ALL. The presence of first strikes of course play a huge role here, but few things piss me off like seeing a combat I rifle emerge from 3 battles in a row unscathed. Worse yet is when longbows take no damage from horse archers or knights, which are immune to the first strikes and possibly the best units for doing damage to the super strong top defender in theory.

When first strikes become involved it starts getting very, very hard to gauge whether or not the RNG is "reasonably certain" to deal you a win. I'll say this though, I've come to respect both first strikes and the drill promotion. A lot. Enough that I mix in drill rifles with the combat ones, and the drill ones actually attack city units damaged by siege collateral (the combat ones are for knights/cuirassers and the really strong stuff).

Random seed on reload isn't the problem, it's reloading itself that is kind of rigged IMO. The incentive and ability to cheat are too high (as if reloading isn't a tad rigged as is - a lot of outcomes can be varied pretty drastically by re-arranging attack order or just movement actions).

For example, if you lost that great general at 97% odds, or a CR III unit, you could, knowing that would occur, reload even without random seed and instead send a crap unit for the "rng screws you" fight. I don't know the EXACT mechanics of the RNG, but let's give a simple example of no random seed RNG outcomes from 1 to 100:

25, 89, 1, 15, 73.

If your CR III unit got anything higher than a 5 it would win, but you attacked with it 3rd. Knowing that, you attack with a draft unit or some scrubby leftover chariot or something 3rd, and then CR III unit goes 4th, and since the 73 is pretty good you use a stock CR II guy next. Granted, you can't see these numbers outright, but you can guess, often pretty well...

The way I see it, the random seed just adds more variety, but reloading is "cheating" regardless, although that's kind of a weighted term. Sometimes, the game lags and your super medic moves 2 spaces into enemy territory next to a spear, the apostolic palace glitches because you killed the AP resident, etc etc.

Or, my personal favorite, your hand isn't even on the keyboard, but the computer thinks you're holding alt, and therefore when you click on your religious buddy's name for a trade at friendly, it instead sounds the horn. Anybody who claims reloading on THAT is cheating needs to relax and perhaps learn to apply logic. However, a lot of things ARE pretty grey area when it comes to this - I don't personally see random seed as making too big a difference, but I don't see how it hurts or "encourages cheating" - you can sure as hell cheat via reloads without it, and pretty much as easily.
 
the random number generator is used for a lot of things in Civ ( since AI exploring paths ( and yours if you put the units in auto-explore )

Does this mean that setting a unit on auto-explore after a reload is a way of effectively generating a new random number seed?
What if the unit has already moved that turn? Since it chooses a path immediately, I expect wouldn't make a difference whether the unit had any movement points left that turn.
 
Does this mean that setting a unit on auto-explore after a reload is a way of effectively generating a new random number seed?
Yup. I have made the experience. Works for goody huts results too..... OFC this means that if you put the same unit in auto-explore with no random seed , you'll get always the same results. It does not generate a new seed in it self, it simply "eats" some of the RNG output in the auto-explore.
What if the unit has already moved that turn? Since it chooses a path immediately, I expect wouldn't make a difference whether the unit had any movement points left that turn.
If the unit is already moved, it will not activate the random seed in that turn AFAIK
 
Posted feedback in the wrong thread
 
I use the new random seed on reload for 2 reasons. First was from when I was playing on easier difficulty levels. Entering goody huts and receiving too many settler units. Having excessive settlers and or workers, scouts, warriors. Under such circumstances it made the easier level feel too easy. The second reason I use seed reload is at higher difficulty levels. I absolutely hate bringing more than enough units to take an enemy city, using siege units to attack causing collateral damage to defending units, but the enemy top defender unharmed. Then attacking and losing all my units against 1 enemy unit that never received damage from siege attacks. Statistically it doesn't feel right to me that 1 enemy unit can avoid any damage while all other units in a city are dropped down to minimal health. Leaving a single unit at top health to annihilate all my attacking units. I'm certain that other players can attest to the aggravation of seeing entire stacks of their units being defeated by a single enemy unit.
 
Especially when the zombie apocalypse comes.
 
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