The Deity Challenge Line-up #15 - Poland

SV turn 229

Spoiler :

I was a bit negative about my science generation as I did not factor in me stealing techs from Korea and getting discounts from scholars in residence. I had 2 scientists lined up in the following turns, 1 from faith and 1 natural by delaying hubble. But in the end I did not need them and could even had started bulbing 1 turn or 2 earlier.

In the endgame I was alone in freedom and all civs except persia and germany denounced me and I got attacked by Korea and Egypt. Built a few units to o****er tnem but they were too far away from me to be a real threat.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3gxt0h4a21ckrs/2014-12-31_00002.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mpdh870xn7g47v8/2014-12-31_00003.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/28ttaxdoq039um0/2014-12-31_00004.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1xp6o4gfw5854sv/2014-12-31_00005.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2dpz6zbchsqs3lv/2014-12-31_00006.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tvx3m4bil4fwgml/DLC 15 final save.Civ5Save?dl=0
 
chumchu said:
SV turn 229
Click to expand...

sahjsahuasfhasfhas

HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW.

I came here to mention I managed to beat it (Science) with a new record Deity time for me...ON TURN 302! And you're over 70 turns faster! I mean, I know I was hardly perfect...but you literally beat it 32% faster. I didn't finish Rationalism which definitely hurt (no free tech) and didn't bulb enough Great Scientists (also went Order when I prefer Freedom or Autocracy) -- but still.

Spoiler :
I decided to try to abuse Poland's extra social policies and went both Tradition AND Liberty (Liberty until free settler, then full Tradition, then finished Liberty when Rationalism wasn't a pressing concern). Got six extra self founded cities plus my capital -- which annoyed Mongolia and others early on (I don't even know why Mongolia got mad about me building cities "too aggressively" -- all of them were south of the natural wonder and nowhere near his territory). That faded in time and managed to never be involved in a war except one (though I did have to reload once when I forgot to bribe Alex into a war and he attacked me).

This time, Siam decided to go Autocracy and was decidedly more aggressive -- actually managed to take off a good chunk of Korea's territory. Siam had already taken out Mongolia earlier and became a bit of a runaway -- at the end of the game we were tied on technology and every other Civ was 10+ techs behind.

The other part of Korea's territory? Well...



After finishing Korea (I liberated a city state Sejong that conquered and Siam took Sejong's last city) here was the status of my empire:





I was generally happy with the state of things, though Siam's science had me a bit worried. Still, he only finished the second to last spaceship part on turn 299-300ish and so I was satisfied with this image:



Until...



Well then.

I definitely lost some time on not doing Apollo Program early enough and managed to think that 3 boosters + engine + stasis + cockpit = 5 parts total, not 6. So after finishing "everything" I needed another booster. Oops.

So I went back and properly built three boosters outside of my capital.



That's more like it.

Demographics:



And there you have it. Bow before my amazing time that was *SEVENTY THREE TURNS LATER* than chumchu's.


I might go ahead and try a domination victory which I've never been able to do "properly" on deity. I did win a game where only domination victory was checked (no weaseling out with science/diplomacy/culture) but usually I just don't move fast enough to conquer everyone before someone launches.
 
Spoiler :
Looking at the images chumchu provided, I think he may have gotten lucky with some stuff as well. For example:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m6c9e8x897erv7e/2014-12-26_00001.jpg?dl=0

See how he's able to make a city southwest of his capital next to the silk? None of the attempts I've done have had that be possible -- Alex immediately settles NORTH of his capital, basically where the citadel is. Here's MY turn 30:



Why is that? Is the AI simply deciding to settle to the north consistently on four separate attempts times for me but not for chumchu?

I mean, obviously chumchu did a lot of things better than I did overall, but I kept wondering why he thought Alexander had such bad terrain and was irrelevant -- usually he's been the biggest non-scientific threat on this Poland map.
 
Case in point, I tried to go for a Tradition 4 city NC build.

Spoiler :


Then he declared war ( couldn't bribe him into fighting anyone else and I couldn't bribe anyone else into fighting him).



Yeah...



That's 11 military units visible right there and more were behind them. Shockingly, I couldn't hold back that army.

I mean, even when Asyria declared war on me on about turn 55 in another game they came with a force like half that size.
 
LordBalkoth said:
Case in point, I tried to go for a Tradition 4 city NC build.

Spoiler :


Then he declared war ( couldn't bribe him into fighting anyone else and I couldn't bribe anyone else into fighting him).



Yeah...



That's 11 military units visible right there and more were behind them. Shockingly, I couldn't hold back that army.

I mean, even when Asyria declared war on me on about turn 55 in another game they came with a force like half that size.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
I agree luck plays a major factor in these games... (I try to circumvent this AI over-expansion problem by building several scouts and blocking the settlers, but I need some ROUGH terrain or rivers/mountains... if everything is flat land, as is here, it's kinda impossible to block)

Here as soon as I saw jungle start with sparse resources I moved my settler right away. It's crucial, however, against Alex and co. to have lots of units, even if they are scouts. A line of scouts, archers, and even workers behind a river (or in the jungle, where most units only move one tile at a time, however horse units will still get through your "wall") blocking the enemy army from reaching your borders is the best security you can afford at times. (AI won't declare war on you, they will try to move their units, but they won't make the declaration, if they can't reach your borders unless another AI invites them to war, and you are unlikely to have two AIs hating you in the early game)

Later on I find at times the best security is the archaeologist :lol: I can tell you without them my empire would've been toast. A single archaeologist building a landmark in foreign lands is at times worth more than a whole brigade of rocket artillery, nukes, and subs.

Or, you know, you could, just, kill Alex... if you know how to warmonger on deity... I certainly don't.
 
Spoiler :

I explored south with my starting warrior as I saw jungle to the north. Got there just in time to occupy the tile Alex wanted sparta on with my warrior. (it was the same as he founded it on in your picture) at which point he turned the settler around and settled south of his capital instead. I never managed to steal a worker from him but I blocked his settler just enough to sneak in a settler on the hill/river/silk spot. HE rushed me turn 50-ish but I could defend with the archers and spearmen I had built waiting for liberty settlers. I could probably not have done as well with tradition.
 
About killing the southern neighbour

Spoiler :
Killing Alex wasn't too hard on this map, once my troops had schooled themselves taking out Genghis. But the hardest part of warmongering is going from 2/3 capitals to 7 without over stretch. I can't do it consistently, and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Time for a VidLP I think.
 
I took a long break trying the new CIV BE, didn't like it so I am back !

Glad to see the series is going. Did the polish game, wasn't too hard.
T278 SV with 50 turns of golden age leftover. First to Industrial (Sci-T ) and Modern (Radio). Went for Order, built factories and purchased like 3 labs around T200. Then I had to switch to Freedom (I was happy at 1, but all Persia, Siam and Korea went freedom, so I had revolutionary wave, which was possibly going bad very soon), so I lost 2 turns, 2 policies and around 100BPT because of that.


Finish time would have been way better if Mongols didn't kill my only neighbour CSs, so I had to fear both them and Alex, so I went for early construction before education and also bronze working because of the jungles.

So without all these setbacks (and if I had planned the golden ages properly ...) I could probably cut 20 or so turns, but whatever. I never really care about turn to victory anyway.

Did tradition opener, then liberty to CR, filled tradition, promptly opened ren with astronomy - and I got secularism at the same time and after that it was rather easy.

One early war with Alex (so I got 2 workers, and did't let him expand to the north).

Here's the victory screen.

Spoiler :


PS. A thing to Note - I got both Pagoda's and Mosques in my religion and didn't buy even one of these! I first got missionary, converted Wroclaw and Krakow. Then Alex got his religion, and after I upgraded mine, he decided to hit Krakow with a prophet, so I lost half of my FPT and because I had no shrines and temples , with 12 FPT I never had to chance to get a building before I entered Industrial around T150. And after that it was rather pointless ...
 
LordBalkoth said:
Case in point, I tried to go for a Tradition 4 city NC build.

Spoiler :


Then he declared war ( couldn't bribe him into fighting anyone else and I couldn't bribe anyone else into fighting him).



Yeah...



That's 11 military units visible right there and more were behind them. Shockingly, I couldn't hold back that army.

I mean, even when Asyria declared war on me on about turn 55 in another game they came with a force like half that size.
Click to expand...

@LordBalkoth
Spoiler :
Problem is, that you are trying 4 city tradition here, and that with Alex next door and so limited space is suicidal. See your screenshot where you are about to settle, and compare it with this one.
Spoiler :


At the time you start settling your first expo, I am already done with the expansion.
Playing tradition/liberty with Poland is simply no brainer - you get best of both worlds, and you don't even have to finish liberty early. I finished it at the late game, only to get an additional GS, didn't bother before that because you unlock rationalism with Astronomy and before that you only have time to fill tradition.
 
kb27787 said:
Spoiler :
I agree luck plays a major factor in these games... (I try to circumvent this AI over-expansion problem by building several scouts and blocking the settlers, but I need some ROUGH terrain or rivers/mountains... if everything is flat land, as is here, it's kinda impossible to block)
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
No offense, but that seems like an incredibly stupid "solution." Not in the sense that it doesn't work, but that it shouldn't be possible and is poor game design. Nearly as bad as worker stealing.


kb27787 said:
Spoiler :
Later on I find at times the best security is the archaeologist :lol: I can tell you without them my empire would've been toast. A single archaeologist building a landmark in foreign lands is at times worth more than a whole brigade of rocket artillery, nukes, and subs.

Or, you know, you could, just, kill Alex... if you know how to warmonger on deity... I certainly don't.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
Yeah, I've never had a problem with Alex in any of the two previous failed attempts or the victory (except for one time where I forgot to bribe him). Never tried the archeologist thing before.

One of my largest issues on deity is not being the best at *offensively* warmongering before artillery and/or flight...unless I have something crazy like Horse Archers, Keshiks, or Camel Archers.


chumchu said:
Spoiler :

I explored south with my starting warrior as I saw jungle to the north. Got there just in time to occupy the tile Alex wanted sparta on with my warrior. (it was the same as he founded it on in your picture) at which point he turned the settler around and settled south of his capital instead. I never managed to steal a worker from him but I blocked his settler just enough to sneak in a settler on the hill/river/silk spot. HE rushed me turn 50-ish but I could defend with the archers and spearmen I had built waiting for liberty settlers. I could probably not have done as well with tradition.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
Yeah, pretty lucky on managing to get him not to settle that first settler (particularly since there are no permanent diplomatic consequences for it).

What turn did you start settling? Sounds like him rushing you actually delayed his settlers which worked well since you were waiting on the liberty policy anyway.

When do you see Tradition as being better than Liberty? Usually heard 6 self founded cities minimum but I think you only did five? Capital, four other cities, and Mongolia's capital. Or were you thinking solely in terms of extra early hammers and time to build stuff while waiting for settler policy?


dragonxxx said:
Spoiler :
@LordBalkoth
Problem is, that you are trying 4 city tradition here, and that with Alex next door and so limited space is suicidal. See your screenshot where you are about to settle, and compare it with this one.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
Right. Except look at this screenshot (from my first try where I lost to Korea on turn 290):



It worked just fine that game and I started expanding even later. Pretty radical difference between games.


dragonxxx said:
Spoiler :
Playing tradition/liberty with Poland is simply no brainer - you get best of both worlds, and you don't even have to finish liberty early. I finished it at the late game, only to get an additional GS, didn't bother before that because you unlock rationalism with Astronomy and before that you only have time to fill tradition.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
I was hoping to go Tradition/Honor/Commerce/Rationalism/Autocracy -- or, at least 3 points into honor for the 50% more experience gained. In the game I won I did open left side of liberty and then went full tradition. Finished liberty when I had spare policies.
 
Spoiler :
It seemed likely to me that he wanted the city on that hill so I just moved my warrior there. It was good for getting line of sight as well. He then stood there with his settler for one turn, and I camped my warrior one turn. Then he left, and I moved on with my warrior. It may look as luck to you, but look at it from a larger perspective. Stealing workers, block settlers/missionaries and bribing AI to attack each other is part of a strategy to control the AI. If you do not use it properly you are much more at the mercy of what the AI decides to do and thus open your self up to being unlucky.

I got my free settler turn 32 I think, and built the other settlers shortly there after. The 4 initial cities were planted within turns 36-50. Liberty or tradition is not just number of cities. When doing a science victory you ideally want as many cities as you can get away with and get up to speed in time. Liberty gives you a lot of early production at a phase in the game where you are hurting for production, this game was even more so than usual what with the neighbors and all. That, the small long term boost to building up your cities and a handy great person gets you towards the goal. Tradition shines in early happiness and growth/aqueducts. With the changes to the tree the timing are more off though.

Lib+tradition should have worked out for you but your secondary cities seem underdeveloped, especially for order as you only really have one good city to build space ship parts in. You mainly seem behind in science. How much did you spy on Korea? Did you do any RA:s? Did you pass scholars in residence as I did? When did you get NC/education/Ideology/Plastics? Not finishing Rationalism is really bad as you can not faith purchase great scientists and I have a hard time seeing what could be a higher priority than that when going for science victory. There were so many cultural city states available that I got 5 more policies apart from the full liberty/commerce/rationalism/freedom that I was going for. Patronage and commerce helped a bit with holding the city states I suppose.
 
chumchu said:
Spoiler :
It seemed likely to me that he wanted the city on that hill so I just moved my warrior there.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
Why, though? Wouldn't the hill two tiles to the left be much better (more luxuries and river access?


chumchu said:
Spoiler :
It may look as luck to you, but look at it from a larger perspective.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
The luck part was the fact you basically went straight south first and happened to get to that hill. If you had explored any other direction (or even just along a coast to the south) then he would have gotten it off.


chumchu said:
Spoiler :
Stealing workers, block settlers/missionaries and bribing AI to attack each other is part of a strategy to control the AI. If you do not use it properly you are much more at the mercy of what the AI decides to do and thus open your self up to being unlucky.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
Those are completely different things.

1. bribing the AI is specifically giving something to the AI to make them act how you want. You may be in a situation where they felt inclined to go to war anyway and thus it's cheap -- or it may costing you an arm and a leg in a bad situation. But you're still actively GIVING the AI something to get the result you want.

2. Blocking settlers/missionaries while being at peace is simply stupid. The fact that "civilian" units like Great Admirals can't move through neutral (or friendly) ships while the rest of your navy can is just...well, stupid. Fun fact: I actually declared war on Alex the last turn where I won the science victory. You know why? Because the turn before he moved a rocket artillery onto the road next to my capital (not directly adjacent, two out) which was heading north. But that meant my spaceship part couldn't reach my capital that turn! Ridiculous. So I declared war to expel it from my territory and then won the game that turn without firing a shot. But I shouldn't have to do that!

Incidentally, the fact you can't stop missionaries short of broken "blocking" rules or declaring war is also stupid. They're in *my* land and subject to *my* laws. If my laws are "no missionaries spreading religion" then I should be able to lock them up or something without declaring war against their civilization. At that point, the OTHER civilization is free to declare war if they really hate that action but it shouldn't be automatic.

3. Stealing workers is just a stupid and broken mechanic. Not in general -- if you're about to go to full fledged war and then invade and find a worker you can grab, fine. But swooping in with a scout to "steal" a worker and just running with it? And the other Civ is like "Hey, no problem man" 10 turns later with no permanent diplomatic consequences? Stupid. They should not accept peace without concessions on your end and/or should have a large permanent negative diplomatic modifier based on your actions.

It's even worse than "denying" in something like DotA where you're expected to kill your own teammates and minions at low health so an enemy doesn't get bonuses from a "killing blow."


chumchu said:
Spoiler :
I got my free settler turn 32 I think, and built the other settlers shortly there after. The 4 initial cities were planted within turns 36-50. Liberty or tradition is not just number of cities. When doing a science victory you ideally want as many cities as you can get away with and get up to speed in time. Liberty gives you a lot of early production at a phase in the game where you are hurting for production, this game was even more so than usual what with the neighbors and all. That, the small long term boost to building up your cities and a handy great person gets you towards the goal. Tradition shines in early happiness and growth/aqueducts. With the changes to the tree the timing are more off though.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
How is turn 32 even possible? It costs 25/30/60 for the first three if I recall correctly? Liberty opener + monument + palace = 4 culture per turn. That's a minimum of 15 turns for the third policy and a further 7 turns for the second (we'll even assume you have a spill-over of 2 from the first policy). That's 22 turns minimum so far. If you build a monument first then that finishes in 7 turns so you need 18 more culture which is another six turns (plus you still need that 2 we threw in for free earlier). That's 7 + 6 + 7 + 22 = turn 42, actually turn 43 since you're short two culture.

Now, maybe you get a culture ruin. Let's even assume your warrior finds one before turn 5. That's 5 turns to open, 8 more turns for second policy, 15 more turns for third policy. 28 turns now -- but that's awfully lucky. And this is assuming you aren't building a scout or two first which also means your chances of finding any ruins goes down.

The most likely explanation seems to be scout first, then monument, then finding a culture ruin. Which is hardly something you can count on -- I don't think I found a single culture ruin even opening with two scouts.


chumchu said:
Spoiler :
Lib+tradition should have worked out for you but your secondary cities seem underdeveloped, especially for order as you only really have one good city to build space ship parts in.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
How do they seem underdeveloped? I had a capital of 35, two cities at 23 and 25, and then another few cities around 16. One of my secondary cities was as large as your capital.

I also planned to finish Spaceship parts with Engineers (could build them in 2 turns) so that was less of an issue.


chumchu said:
Spoiler :
You mainly seem behind in science. How much did you spy on Korea? Did you do any RA:s? Did you pass scholars in residence as I did? When did you get NC/education/Ideology/Plastics? Not finishing Rationalism is really bad as you can not faith purchase great scientists and I have a hard time seeing what could be a higher priority than that when going for science victory. There were so many cultural city states available that I got 5 more policies apart from the full liberty/commerce/rationalism/freedom that I was going for. Patronage and commerce helped a bit with holding the city states I suppose.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
I spied on Korea (with every spy available)...basically the entire game. Until I wiped them out.

I had usually 2 RAs going throughout the game. Some combination of Korea/Siam/Germany/Mongolia/Persia.

I don't remember on NC, probably about turn 90-100? Education was by 110-115 I think. Slightly behind good times but not terribly so.

Ideology was delayed a bit as I was trying to see where the chips would fall. Each of the three main tries I did had *very* different ideologies per civilization (well, for like half of them). Don't remember turn number on that or Plastics but I did finish Hubble on turn 256.

Was having major happiness problems from Siam and Greece who went Autocracy and passed World Ideology due to owning most city states. Which was practically the reverse of a previous game where Siam was Freedom, Greece was Autocracy, but Korea was the only relevant tourism Civ as Order. So was spending policies on that mainly later on. I did put a point into Exploration on around turn 240 in preparation for my naval invasion, but I was still two short of finishing Rationalism.

I figured I'd just purchase Great Engineers to rush the parts themselves and it wouldn't hurt me too badly.

I did not have any city state ally until late game and generally did not have that much money until late game. Probably a large problem was food caravaning my capital with 6 routes (used to sending 2-3 cargo ships to it) instead of earning gold/science. Had one early game caravan with Alex for science and some gold but the next six all went to food. Eighth was put on gold duty, though. Commerce and Patronage definitely helped in that regard -- two points in Patronage basically makes you 66% better at buying city states. And extra gold from trade routes, less maintenance on roads/railroads, triple gold from trading posts, double great merchant gold (if you got any), and more happiness (thus not needing to buy luxuries or could sell them) definitely helped you. Of course, I wasn't able to simply buy spaceship parts as Order either...
 
Spoiler :
It is a better spot but he was not moving the settler in that direction. Further there were not other good spots I could see nearby. I suspect that most people moved their warrior along the river turn 0 looking for the only possible better spot than the gold. Scouting inland, in open terrain also makes more sense than scouting jungle or coast with the initial warrior.

I think I got pop/map/upgrade to spearman/barbs/culture/bronze working out of 6 early ruins when I did scout/monument/scout. That is slightly more ruins than average and average results. If you do not get culture ruins and do not steal workers you will fall behind early game.

I got an earlier NC, slightly later education as I detoured for sailing, engineering and machinery and my spy who was to steal it from Korea was killed, Ideology was turn 161, plastics 189. In my game I was alone in freedom while most of the world was order which got me chain-denounced.

They seem underdeveloped if you are 15-16 pop and building banks at turn 279. You want to be able to work max specialists/jungle tiles which in order means more like 20 pop since you do not have the bonus food from freedom.

No city state allies? ouch. I scouted most city states by turn 50, cleared camps, connected luxuries, found wonders et cetera and was at roughly 4 allies/4 friends most of the game. I went first two spies in Korea and the rest in city states to preserve them. DoF with Alexander and Ramkamhaeng is also a good way to make sure they cant buy your city states.

Taking out Korea this late and investing in explorations seems like a distraction from your science victory. Seoul is still in resistance, 15% more expensive techs hurt you, so does fewer targets for espionage/discounts.
 
@ Chumchu:

Spoiler :
Whats wrong with the gold spot? River, mountain, some hills, some freshwater grassland, bananas .... The only issue is that the Citrus is in the jungle and you don't have good food tile in the first ring, but other than that, you can rarely get a better starting spot tbh.
 
Spoiler :
My first point addressed how Greece settled Sparta, there was a better spot available there but Greece was not going for it. My second point addressed how the player should scout. On the starting mini-map the gold spot looked good but if you want to look for a better spot you should probably send your warrior along the river.
 
Finished this one turn 228 science. Was somewhat disappointed. Wanted to expand more than that but couldn't and made some stupid end game mistakes costing around 8 turns (forgot to delay PT and also hit the overflow cap). Went trad/lib.

The surroundings being food heavy could have warranted a wide liberty/commerce too if you can find room for your cities.

Spoiler :


Edit: I find it very interesting how Chumchu's game was able to catch up to mine later on. I got a 4 city T78 NC, T101 Edu and T147 ST. But my game started to slowly slow up after that as I needed to use some TR for gold due to the lack of production in many cities, and said cities started to grow very slowly. Maybe also my theory is a bit off and I started to work jungles too soon idk.
I'd be really interested to see how a wider game with 7-8 cities with a lot of gpt and early mercantilism can fare in comparison (for rushs and more RAs). Also I guess he was able to steal a lot more from Korea than me in the midgame by being a bit late and also scholar in residence.
 
Acken said:
Finished this one turn 228 science. Was somewhat disappointed. Wanted to expand more than that but couldn't and made some stupid end game mistakes costing around 8 turns (forgot to delay PT and also hit the overflow cap). Went trad/lib.

The surroundings being food heavy could have warranted a wide liberty/commerce too if you can find room for your cities.

Spoiler :


Edit: I find it very interesting how Chumchu's game was able to catch up to mine later on. I got a 4 city T78 NC, T101 Edu and T147 ST. But my game started to slowly slow up after that as I needed to use some TR for gold due to the lack of production in many cities, and said cities started to grow very slowly. Maybe also my theory is a bit off and I started to work jungles too soon idk.
I'd be really interested to see how a wider game with 7-8 cities with a lot of gpt and early mercantilism can fare in comparison (for rushs and more RAs). Also I guess he was able to steal a lot more from Korea than me in the midgame by being a bit late and also scholar in residence.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, what's the overflow cap?
I thought they fixed the so called overflow exploit bug already...
 
They fixed the overflow exploit by capping overflow. If you forget that, and bulb too many GSs (particularly on cheap techs) you will hit the cap and lose beakers.
 
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