[POIL] Never used civics

I think he meant that some of the auto buildings associated with Civics have an obsolete tech.

If they do then they should not or there should be a progression of them through the tech tree so that there is always one active if you choose that civic.

Not only auto-building.
Many early civics have building, and they go obsolete too fast. Strongmen's building are even obsolete just when you have the next civics....

As they were designed to do.

JosEPh

And I think it's a bad design.
Civic-related building should never go obsolete. They should be desactivated because you change the civics, not because you know another civic.
For Strongmen : Yes, I discovered Matriarchy. But I dont want to use it. Why it's impact my actual civic so hard?

LumenAngel said:

And I think it's a bad design.
Civic-related building should never go obsolete. They should be desactivated because you change the civics, not because you know another civic.
For Strongmen : Yes, I discovered Matriarchy. But I dont want to use it. Why it's impact my actual civic so hard?

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I don't think its bad design for some civics to become not quite so good as they were in their prime era. I'm not defending this particular case, just the premise. I can't say I've followed the discussion enough to know what exact building has gone obsolete for you and what the justifications for that were. But it makes sense that some civics should be better during certain eras than others and this is one way to make that fact stand out. The other means is tech prereqs that may place the building access later than the civic access so you have to still wait a while before you can get the building even if you're on the civic.

But buildings from civics are truly needing some kind of deeper visibility, as DH has pointed out, when looking on the civics screen. So getting more intricate with buildings makes it very hard to truly evaluate one civic from the next or to notice effects that would or would not exist, particularly with FREE buildings from civics. At least with the ones you build you need to look at their stats when you consider adding them to the build queue.

If the building stats cannot be displayed in the civics screen directly, how about an additional description tag gets added to civics, where these effects can be described by the civics authors at their own discretion?

LumenAngel said:

Not only auto-building.
Many early civics have building, and they go obsolete too fast. Strongmen's building are even obsolete just when you have the next civics....

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I have a question for you. In Bug do you have the Option "Hide Obsolete Buildings" checked? If so, I would suggest Unchecking that box. May alleviate some of your perceived problems, just sayin'.

I have found over the years, since those Options were added, to Not check the Obsolete Building Nor the Obsolete Worker actions boxes. Alleviates many so called problems that maybe similar to this one.

JosEPh

tmv said:

If the building stats cannot be displayed in the civics screen directly, how about an additional description tag gets added to civics, where these effects can be described by the civics authors at their own discretion?

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Brilliant concept actually. I did something very similar for buildups.

I wonder if civics already have a mostly unused text tag that could be put to use with some simple screen adjustments...

tmv said:

If the building stats cannot be displayed in the civics screen directly, how about an additional description tag gets added to civics, where these effects can be described by the civics authors at their own discretion?

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Of course they can be displayed. It just has not happened.

JosEPh_II said:

I have found over the years, since those Options were added, to Not check the Obsolete Building Nor the Obsolete Worker actions boxes. Alleviates many so called problems that maybe similar to this one.

JosEPh

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Are you sure you don't mean replaced buildings not obsolete buildings? You can still build buildings that have upgrades/replacements but obsolete ones can't be built and will be shown as greyed out/unselectable if at all.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Of course they can be displayed. It just has not happened.



Are you sure you don't mean replaced buildings not obsolete buildings? You can still build buildings that have upgrades/replacements but obsolete ones can't be built and will be shown as greyed out/unselectable if at all.

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Didn't used to be that way as I recall. In the past if you checked Hide Obsolete then if you had something happen to destroy the replacement building but you needed to build the previous (1st in line) to get back to where you were, then with that Option checked you were hosed.

I'll double check my settings for exact name.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

I have a question for you. In Bug do you have the Option "Hide Obsolete Buildings" checked? If so, I would suggest Unchecking that box. May alleviate some of your perceived problems, just sayin'.

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Some civics have buildings. Some of these buildings are obsolete very fast, and thes civics are then useless...
Nothing to do with BUG oprions....

LumenAngel said:

Some civics have buildings. Some of these buildings are obsolete very fast, and thes civics are then useless...
Nothing to do with BUG oprions....

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We have been using this set for sometime now. No one complained like you on this subject before. We all have agreed though that this current Civic set needs more work or redone.

But, StrategyOnly made some recent changes to ALL Civics and this Might be your culprit.

JosEPh

Dredging this discussion back up because of the Civic Tribal Warfare. It used to give 40 Free Military units Before the 1 per unit kicked in.

It has been changed and the number of Free Mil units has dropped And this is the critical one All units (not just Mil) cost 1.

This imhpo is the death knell for using this option even short term to get the Perks for faster build times for the different Mil unit groups. And while these perks for the Melee, throwing, archer, etc Mil unit build times are great, if it drains your Treasury with in 10 turns of activation what good is it?

I think you screwed the pooch SO on this one. And I'd like to see some change in it to give your early empire another option when the War SoDs come rolling in. I mean you even gave Banditry 3 Trade Routes per city at the cost of 1 additional Crime per pop. Which makes Banditry The Early Game Military Civic hands down.

Tribal Warfare is great at leveling up your Mil for an impending invasion or in prep for your invasion. But the cost is so overwhelming that it's usefulness is made Unaffordable.

Sidenote: Because Crime and now all the related units plus the original used unit for Bandit Hideout;Rogues, Theives, Ambushers, Stalkers etc. line is tied into The Civic banditry I have long proposed that the Bandit Hideout should Not go Obsolete if you change out of the Banditry Civic.

Just like Omega Child lasts thru several successive Civics so should Bandit Hide Out and maybe even "other" Bandit bldgs. This would give Tribal Warfare more relevance since it was Placed After Banditry in that Civic Category.

In fact I further suggest going so far as to remove the association of the Rogue and Criminal Line from Banditry Civic altogether. And make them Building only dependent. Bandit Footpads and Bandit Riders could still be linked to the Civic Banditry as that was the original intent.

But for the right now time frame I'm leaning on making Tribal Warfare a whole lot less Expensive for it's time frame of usage.

JosEPh

Yeah, I hadn't realized the change and struggled through TW by having a small military (no one was close by anyway), and very aggressively 'butchering' animals for culture and science.

Ive also noticed no unrest during civic changes anymore either (no traits)

JosEPh_II said:

Dredging this discussion back up because of the Civic Tribal Warfare. It used to give 40 Free Military units Before the 1 per unit kicked in.

It has been changed and the number of Free Mil units has dropped And this is the critical one All units (not just Mil) cost 1.

This imhpo is the death knell for using this option even short term to get the Perks for faster build times for the different Mil unit groups. And while these perks for the Melee, throwing, archer, etc Mil unit build times are great, if it drains your Treasury with in 10 turns of activation what good is it?

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I'd wanted to make it give 100 free mil units but others had suggested to diminish it to 40. Less than that would totally miss the point. Agreed.

Sidenote: Because Crime and now all the related units plus the original used unit for Bandit Hideout;Rogues, Theives, Ambushers, Stalkers etc. line is tied into The Civic banditry I have long proposed that the Bandit Hideout should Not go Obsolete if you change out of the Banditry Civic.

Just like Omega Child lasts thru several successive Civics so should Bandit Hide Out and maybe even "other" Bandit bldgs. This would give Tribal Warfare more relevance since it was Placed After Banditry in that Civic Category.

In fact I further suggest going so far as to remove the association of the Rogue and Criminal Line from Banditry Civic altogether. And make them Building only dependent. Bandit Footpads and Bandit Riders could still be linked to the Civic Banditry as that was the original intent.

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The intention was to make it so that if you wanted to:
1) Have access to criminals (take a 'dark' path as it were)
2) Steal from others to make up for the more expensive choice that gives your units a better raiding capacity

BUT

3) Have to potentially deal with more criminals and crime plaguing you because you are trying to harness this dark power
4) Struggle with unit upgrade costs because you didn't select the more efficient method of managing your civics in that category (tribal warfare)

then pick Banditry. Otherwise pick tribal warfare. It's more peaceful to select TW but you have to play by 'the rules' more and don't have the ability to hamper your frienemies that criminals provide.

Well with Tribal Warfare Borked as it is now, you are forced into Banditry. You just do not have a long term choice. You Can use Tribal Warfare but only for a short time period or you will go into Strike. Not the best thing to happen to you when you Need Buffed units to repel an invading force and then go bankrupt.

And you are stuck with either choice for a minimum of 5 turns because of the Block on making Civic changes quicker.

JosEPh

The point of TW was to make your standing force cheaper (almost completely free) unless you over develop your military, at which point it quickly becomes MORE expensive (to make it more valuable to the early game and terrible for the later game.)

Well I've already seen stack of 45 units in this game from my neighbor and he only has as many cities as I do (8). Makes you wonder what Sejong's Armies look like since he just popped his 18th city and it's only ~4400BC Ancient era. And Ghengis has 12 cities already. I've not met the other 5 AI yet.

Now add in the animal, neander, and barb spawned units, and this game probably has thousands of units running around already. Sigh, guess it's WB time to see how bad it really is.

Oh 1 more thing, in this game I've already reduced all the animal/barb spawns by 10-20% in the A_N_DGlobalDefines.

JosEPh

The AI on Deity getting that 2nd Band Plus the game now having the multiple NPCs is exploding with units and cities produced early game.

2 things I'm taking away from all this testing on Deity:
1. the 2nd band is a great challenge for the player to overcome, BUT it is way too OP in what it allows early game.
2.The NPCs, you now have 3 Green man, 2 barbarian, 1 neanderthal, 6 NPCs that will show up when you look into WB. The main game screen will only show 2: Barb State and neanderthal. But there are 6 NPC AI involved in every game now. Add this number to even the Default for most map sizes (ie. 8 default AI for Large) and you actually have 14 or More AI starting the game plus the player. Is this getting to be too many? Especially with all the new content added to the Mod just in this version alone? But the Mod is "hurting" right now imhpo.

Spawn rates for the NPCs do need a reduction. I suggest at least a 20% reduction in all categories.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

The AI on Deity getting that 2nd Band Plus the game now having the multiple NPCs is exploding with units and cities produced early game.

2 things I'm taking away from all this testing on Deity:
1. the 2nd band is a great challenge for the player to overcome, BUT it is way too OP in what it allows early game.

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Now put that test up against vanilla deity and you'll see we still aren't as tough as the original.

2.The NPCs, you now have 3 Green man, 2 barbarian, 1 neanderthal, 6 NPCs that will show up when you look into WB. The main game screen will only show 2: Barb State and neanderthal. But there are 6 NPC AI involved in every game now. Add this number to even the Default for most map sizes (ie. 8 default AI for Large) and you actually have 14 or More AI starting the game plus the player. Is this getting to be too many? Especially with all the new content added to the Mod just in this version alone? But the Mod is "hurting" right now imhpo.

Spawn rates for the NPCs do need a reduction. I suggest at least a 20% reduction in all categories.

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The 2nd barbarian is probably the Insectoids which would mean that we have some text issues with that entry. It shouldn't hardly spawn anything and, like animals, shouldn't be capable of owning cities. The number of AIs isn't really going to add much in the way of processing time, particularly since the majority of them shouldn't possess cities, none ever evaluate for civic selections and few even choose techs to research. Neanders will die out over time and animals, as we know, do diminish. They are not full on players with full evaluation routines.

But based on what you said earlier about some owning cities, there's still some bugs there to fix, yes.